Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated

[UnforcedError]

HoF games are cheating, and before you get upset..not from players and inside your system, but towards AIs or game balance. In all write ups so far i saw super starts, weakest AIs, best leaders and cheesy UUs..
how you can compare this with regular games..beyond me.
HoF players usually think they are angels, and forget that they are the ones who never play a fair game.

OFF

Well, let's not get carried away here. HOF games are simply another way to play civ 4. The main difference to a randomly rolled map is that two aspects of the game (re-rolling a starting location and deciding who your opponents will be, if the game allows it) which you'd normally have no influence on become part of your strategy. But since this option is open to all HOF players calling this cheating is totally inappropriate. Also, as Sun Tzu Wu already pointed out, the HOF / BUFFY mod ensures that there are no replays and no WB shenanigans going on in games, which certainly cannot be said about every game in the S & T forum, even if the majority of the players plays fair.

END OFF

 

[Mylene]

Just like other players who reload after they make a mistake are playing differently, if i see @AZ doing that after he miss-clicks with rather fatal consequences i would never think about locked modified assets and "human trust".

They bring this up frequently, so why are they not sticking with posting about HoF in that part of the forum?
Easy, cos here more peoples read. Maybe that's because reloading after a fatal miss-click, in single player games
outside of competitions, is more human than taking games as serious as wars.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^I agree with this HOF, games are totally different animals compared to normal games. You have only to watch some of that stuff Seriael posted on marathon to know that. Play Inca on marathon after days of rerolling for that fifth gold, win the game in 10 turns with a quecha rush and then spend some 1000 hours microing for high score. Now that's all very well but imo stuff and strategies like this should be posted in the HOF forum. It would save us all a lot of headache.

 

[vranasm]

well my post wasn't meant as drawing this one into yet another battle against HOF...

it was just posting about particular map/strategy that allows for delaying BW great time with comparable result to BW game (I actually saw that L teched to IW and wared with cats+swords)

edit:
and I have no doubts about him having totally better start then me, because mine sucked balls

 

[UnforcedError]

Just like other players who reload after they make a mistake are playing differently, if i see @AZ doing that after he miss-clicks with rather fatal consequences i would never think about locked modified assets and "human trust".

They bring this up frequently, so why are they not sticking with posting about HoF in that part of the forum?
Easy, cos here more peoples read. Maybe that's because reloading after a fatal miss-click, in single player games
outside of competitions, is more human than taking games as serious as wars.

I didn't mean to imply that AZ doesn't play fair or that correcting a miss-click is a capital offence in a normal game. But not allowing reloads in a competitive environment is fair as even 1-2t extra map knowledge could change a lot in the player's favour.

 

[Duckweed]

HoF games are cheating, and before you get upset..not from players and inside your system, but towards AIs or game balance. In all write ups so far i saw super starts, weakest AIs, best leaders and cheesy UUs..
how you can compare this with regular games..beyond me.
HoF players usually think they are angels, and forget that they are the ones who never play a fair game.

To be fair, their opponents are human players, so there's nothing wrong to find a super start, which probably eases the deity level to monarchy level. HOF games are more of competitions of patience to regenerate an idea map and abundant time to redo it if there are something bad happened than competitions of personal skills. Therefore, players who have more patience and more time come ahead.

 

[vranasm]

Therefore, players who have more patience and more time come ahead.

that's probably the biggest issue with the format though even if I could generally agree that more time for gaming should yield better results a lot of games are trying to somehow level the field as My is surely well familiar with MMORPGs

 

[ben-jammin]

To be fair, their opponents are human players, so there's nothing wrong to find a super start, which probably eases the deity level to monarchy level. HOF games are more of competitions of patience to regenerate an idea map and abundant time to redo it if there are something bad happened than competitions of personal skills. Therefore, players who have more patience and more time come ahead.

It takes a certain mentality to obsess over HoF achievements. I think for the majority of players playing that type of game for that type of reward is not what's fun. The whole idea of having a program pick from hundreds of randomly generated maps for the one that perfectly suits a predetermined game defeats the entire idea of randomness in this game. Sure it meets the HoF requirement of unaltered maps, but it is accomplishing exactly the same thing as having someone alter you a map to meet the same ideal criteria.

 

[UnforcedError]

HOF games are more of competitions of patience to regenerate an idea map and abundant time to redo it if there are something bad happened than competitions of personal skills. Therefore, players who have more patience and more time come ahead.

That's a very good point. It certainly favours players with lots of spare time, not something you necessarily have with work / family / household etc.

 

[Doshin]

vranasm's comment on page 4 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11897342&postcount=77) comes quite close to my own view.

Ignoring HOF-type games for a moment... perhaps avoiding BW is optimal on some starts on a particular type of map, but these aren't the maps that I or (I think) most other people like to play. I have nothing to prove this assertion, except for the fact that most of the forum games I see tend to involve starts with a reasonable number of grassland or floodplain tiles.

Again, playing on an arid map is, for me, less enjoyable than playing on another map script that provides the player with greater room to manoeuvre. It's not simply the case that a temperate map is easier. I mean, winning on an Archipelago map is easier than Pangaea, but I prefer playing the latter.

So yeah. This leaves us with a strategy that may or may not be more efficient in certain situations. And while I appreciate that these situations are a part of the game, life, and Civ time, is short.



[On an unrelated note, the amount of rage I now feel at a bad event is in no way commensurate with the pleasure I feel when I experience a good event. This is the chief reason why I play with them turned off, followed by the lack of balance with certain events (barb uprisings) and the feeling that they have simply been 'tacked on' in BtS to the base game. Slave revolts don't bother me, nor does cross-analyzing one game with another.]

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

@Doshin You see I had a game going on his last map to show him how broken huts are as I popped TW Pottery then Writting in a row from 4 huts. But the RNG gods thought that wasn't fair, and gave me 6 Archers to deal with when I had 1 city with no units in it. Now explain to me again how Huts, and Events AREN'T broken.

 

[Doshin]

Did you build a Library after the second hut? You should have built a Library.

The AI gets, what, a 40% bonus against barbs? That annoys me too.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I was building one, but I got the 6 Archers like 5 turns after I got Writing.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Everyone, please try to restrict yourselves to the topic of this thread. I only mentioned the HoF MapFinder as a means of generating maps that may have synergy with the delayed Bronze Working strategy. While it is true MapFinder can find great starts for the HoF tables, it can also easily find low food and low forests starts, exactly what this strategy needs. Of course it is limited to what the initial Settler and Warrior/Scout can see, but usually the hidden REX area is often poorer than the visible start, so my suggestion stands. If the surrounding area justifies early BW, then simply switch to Bronze Working (one must afterall adapt one's play to unexpectedly good surrounding land).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[iggymnrr]

I agree with this HOF, games are totally different animals compared to normal games. You have only to watch some of that stuff Seriael posted on marathon to know that. Play Inca on marathon after days of rerolling for that fifth gold, win the game in 10 turns with a quecha rush and then spend some 1000 hours microing for high score. Now that's all very well but imo stuff and strategies like this should be posted in the HOF forum. It would save us all a lot of headache.

I read about any strategy regarding Civ IV. It doesn't matter whether it is nobles club or deity. It doesn't matter whether it is always war or not. It doesn't matter whether BAT/BULL is used or not. It doesn't matter whether there are raging barbs or not. The suggestion made above in bold is not the purview of this forum. If you wish to restrict choice to this degree it is incumbent upon you to start your own website dedicated to your specifications. Provide a link and I will read that too.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^There is no always war forum or a specific noble/prince forum, however there is a forum for the gold diggers/rerollers so...

 

[iggymnrr]

There is no always war forum or a specific noble/prince forum, however there is a forum for the gold diggers/rerollers so...

There is no strategy section in the HoF forum. Nor is there a forum for those who reroll because a start looks too good. Nor is there a forum for those who turn off options that are on with the installation of the CIV IV like huts and random events. Perhaps handicapped games like these belong in the stories and tales section. Or, perhaps, games using BAT/BULL belong in the mods section.

Last time I checked, the option menus at a game's start allows more possibilities than even the HoF allows. Using any combination of these options defines the game. Strategy can be based on these. To tell a person who uses any combination of possibilities that the developer allows that his/her game isn't real based on an unsolicited set of handicaps is a very narrow-minded. In effect, money that person has spent on the game is being stolen.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

^^There is no always war forum or a specific noble/prince forum, however there is a forum for the gold diggers/rerollers so...

Whether or not a poster can justifibly post on a forum's thread is based on whether his post's content is on topic or not; it has absolutely nothing to do with what type of Civ game he/she plays or you think he/she plays. If you don't agree, please go there and you might learn something you never knew. Otherwise, please leave us pure strategists alone. This is the forum for "Strategies and Tips".

Can we please return to the topic of this thread?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Soirana]

If you don't agree, please go there and you might learn something you never knew. Otherwise, please leave us pure strategists alone. This is the forum for "Strategies and Tips".

Can we please return to the topic of this thread?

Sun Tzu Wu

I think problem is it is rather unclear that the main topic of thread actually is.

So from pure strategic standpoint [I do assume we speak about map where whipping/ chopping/slave revolts are of minimal impact] - what is presumed advantage of not having BW after acquiring alphabet?
Personally i believe, assuming player is comfortable on difficulty level he plays on, in general more trades> less trades as it pushes general teching rate which commonly leads to nice winning dates.

One more narrow question - if it is actually about bulbing lib, what is supposed free tech assuming by time lib is aquired BW is not teched yet?

 

[Mylene]

So what's the topic again?
Oooh i remember, how can somebody starting a Deity game not have realized that you cannot compare games with Events on.
There was also another topic i think, "bulbing Lib without compass and MC, but also no BW, viable on Deity?". Delayed BW sounds so much more spectacular!