Delayed Bronze Working Start

[Jet]

I wish there was a different mechanism for reigning it in.

Depends what you mean by "was", but the game has civics cost, number of hammers per pop whipped, duration of whip unhappiness ... there are a lot of different mechanisms for reigning it in.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Skipping BW did save some turns, especially on Immortal, but I don't think this strategy is good for deity since on deity AI researches faster and all techs I had to wait for here can easily be traded for on deity.

Good play through, using the delayed Bronze Working approach, with your Deity concerns being noted.

One thing is particularly bothering me with this strategy: Without knowing strategic resources available, you can't make plans for the future, thus you can't know will you be able to profit from Libbing at all...

Fun fact: did you know I double bulbed Liberalism just to get a turn...

Note: you don't need to actually discover Liberalism before opening up the Bronze Working path. Just one bulb should lock it in. You can then figure out the metals situation and form whatever strategy you like from there.

But I can say this Brennus' strategy wasn't that bad. It'd do even better on great plains.

Yes, we'll try a great plains. The floodplains and seafood did make slavery a viable option here (although not at all a necessity).

 

[Revent]

Although I still think it'd be better you settled those horses (for safety issues too) and sent your WBs from there, your reasoning behind Munich is very intelligent.
Try exploring a bit more along the coast, especially your own land so you don't miss some opportunities.

Since I went scout first and popped another scout, I only ran into one Barb Warrior the whole game Cos there's only so many huts you can pop so after 4 huts popped, I decided to keep these guys for fogbusting (and ran into one hut by chance) . Hence horse city was not a priority at all actually.

Ha! Haha! Now Shakabrade holds the record for this map!
I agree that "what to do with Lib" is a disturbing question but... it often is in PTGs (Pure Techer Games).

Now, come on, a bit less speculation about the impact of huts/events and a bit more playtesting/reporting! If you get HBR from huts you can just tell you got it and how it was sooo unbalanced, right?
Can't leave that 425AD Lib date uncontested... or can you?


ps: @Shakabrade:
Very funny last picture... Dotmap is a killer.

Spoiler :

I won't be playing this one any longer though! Did some really cheap shots here just to beat the current date Ie, I traded away Phil for 50 gold twice and did something similar for CS

@Brennus, thanks for the map, no BW was an interesting one. Have to admit though, skipping the machinery bulb really does save a lot of time!

 

[Smilingrogue]

I am not a great player by any stretch of imagination. So would appreciate it if the players who are winning Lib with only Nationalism as the ideal choice here could explain what they intend to do next? Tech gunpowder while building Taj, switch into Nationalism and draft Muskets?

How does that compare to just going Trebs + Whatever troops? I think even with Muskets, Trebs are likely needed. I am not sure on that though and would love to hear how to win once Lib is achieved so early.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I am not a great player by any stretch of imagination. So would appreciate it if the players who are winning Lib with only Nationalism as the ideal choice here could explain what they intend to do next? Tech gunpowder while building Taj, switch into Nationalism and draft Muskets?

How does that compare to just going Trebs + Whatever troops? I think even with Muskets, Trebs are likely needed. I am not sure on that though and would love to hear how to win once Lib is achieved so early.

Since Liberalism takes more than a full bulb, you don't need to actually complete it once you lock it in by bulbing it. You would be advised to open up the tech you want first. If you notice my screenshot in the intro spoiler, it only says +1599 towards Liberalism, not "discover Liberalism." (In fact, I took Communism with it much later). I agree that you have to use Liberalism effectively towards something for this to be a viable strategy.

 

[Ghpstage]

I am not a great player by any stretch of imagination. So would appreciate it if the players who are winning Lib with only Nationalism as the ideal choice here could explain what they intend to do next? Tech gunpowder while building Taj, switch into Nationalism and draft Muskets?

How does that compare to just going Trebs + Whatever troops? I think even with Muskets, Trebs are likely needed. I am not sure on that though and would love to hear how to win once Lib is achieved so early.

Non UU Muskets are pretty terrible, the most likely reason they will see use is as a spammable (draft) troop for following cannons.
The real gem of gunpowder lies in Cuirassiers. Got reasonably early these things are capable of winning games outright, or at least setting up a pretty much unlosable position.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I won't be playing this one any longer though! Did some really cheap shots here just to beat the current date Ie, I traded away Phil for 50 gold twice and did something similar for CS

Haha. Well, all in good fun. I did intend it as a map to actually be won via the strategy and not a pure Lib race, but your early Lib date is impressive. Thanks for participating.

@Brennus, thanks for the map, no BW was an interesting one. Have to admit though, skipping the machinery bulb really does save a lot of time!

You're very welcome, and I hope you play another if I post one. Note: You skip Bronze Working, Iron Working, Metal Casting, and Compass. Machinery comes after Liberalism on the GS bulb order.

 

[bhavv]

Revent why did you choose to settle munich on the grassland instead of the tundra? Putting it on the tundra means it could work a grassland cottage and the fur.

 

[rah]

Depends what you mean by "was", but the game has civics cost, number of hammers per pop whipped, duration of whip unhappiness ... there are a lot of different mechanisms for reigning it in.

Yes you are correct. I wish they had used one of those to not make slavery so OP. That would have been better than just through events. Especially since you can turn those off.

And congrats to those that actually tried this challange.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Interesting discussion in any case. It is an unusual strategy and we now see a viable one. That creates more space to add variety to the game and that is always a good thing. It doesn't matter to me if it is the single most efficient path to take, what matters to me is if it increases the fun of playing. Thanks for proposing it and thanks to all of you who added content to the topic.

 

[Revent]

Revent why did you choose to settle munich on the grassland instead of the tundra? Putting it on the tundra means it could work a grassland cottage and the fur.

Purely to be able to work the riverside cottage for the capital. I wasn't playing to win, just to get the fastest Lib date I reasonably could. I didn't expect (or care for) that city to go past size 3 anyway.

 

[Mylene]

So why not remember what we really look at here?
No need for MC and Compass on your way towards Lib..and no slavery or chops, slow city development.

~1200 beakers, most likely much less if we consider later libraries, granaries and maybe trading for MC. Later Pyras, later...uh too much to mention.
Sounds much less spectacular? Well yip, but you guys love poems

 

[sossos]

So why not remember what we really look at here?
No need for MC and Compass on your way towards Lib..and no slavery or chops, slow city development.

~1200 beakers, most likely much less if we consider later libraries, granaries and maybe trading for MC. Later Pyras, later...uh too much to mention.
Sounds much less spectacular? Well yip, but you guys love poems

It sacrifices too many---city numbers, infra, trade route, better units----just for a free tech.

Is there a kind of victory which is called the fastest LIB?

 

[shakabrade]

I've played with slavery this time and have managed to get into Lib position earlier. But not only was I able to get there earlier, my other cities were more developed, therefore suited for switching to Police State and some heavy whipping. Major difference making game much better were earlier granaries which were whipped and I also chopped one forest in settler phase so I managed to get my fish cities.

Later I Libbed Steel and played to the very end. Now I have to repair internet on my PC to give you screenies and save. I will not tell you the exact dates of Lib and conquest until then, but Revent should work harder. And this time there was no cheesing like double liberalism bulb last time .


Edit:
This was obviously slavery map since cities had no hammer output, but I still think this could be good tactic on great plains map with plains cow start. And that is very often on great plains, IIRC. Immortal AIs are really slow techers so those beakers are actually saved since you can't trade for them in time. However, I don't see this tactic working on Deity, except in some isolations with low food. Constant threat and faster tech pace make BW before Lib a must. But still, BW, or at least slavery can occasionally be delayed if you have good tiles like some food and mined pigs and horses all the way to happy cap (and not much forest).

 

[UnforcedError]

Is there a kind of victory which is called the fastest LIB?

Well if there was one this strategy would be great

 

[Doshin]

I haven't played the map or followed the various ins and outs of the (many!) acrimonious discussions that led to this thread. But for this to be considered a strategy, I think that you need to define with greater exactitude some of the parameters under which it is optimal to avoid BW.

From what I can tell, the following are verging upon the necessary:

• An arid map (minimizing forests)
• Few forests in the capital's BFC
• Few forest or jungle tiles in the neighboring land (jungle patches are still common on arid maps)

The following are advantageous:

• Events on (limiting efficacy of Slavery)
• Surrounding land has poor food (limiting efficacy of whips)
• Stone in BFC (GE Bulb path; GM with GLH)
• Marble in BFC (GS Bulb path)
• Industrious leader

The following are helpful:

• Peaceful, non-expansive neighbors.
• Resourceless UU (esp. in lieu of the metal equivalent)

The benefits of BW are generally known and strong.

My big problem with this list is that, according to my understanding, the strategy's utility is severely curbed on any non-arid map, and that even on such a map, the strategy's success can still be torpedoed by a plethora of factors (non-industrious civ; aggressive neighbors; limited room to expand; etc.). In other words, the strategy is restricted to a particular map-type, to particular leaders, with a particular start and particular surroundings, several of which are unusual.

I'd welcome a more fluid list than the one I've provided And I hope this doesn't come off as a personal attack. I just can't see how this strategy would ever be useful with any real regularity.

 

[pigswill]

@Brennus.Quigley. I refreshed my memory by reading your strategy article and your game description. I noticed a couple of things.

i) I'm wondering why you didn't bulb feudalism with your 100bc GE (which is something you advocated as a benefit of this strategy).

ii) I'm also wondering about your diplo victory date. I'm guessing it wasn't super early if Victoria had time to build the UN.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Brennus.Quigley. I refreshed my memory by reading your strategy article and your game description. I noticed a couple of things.

i) I'm wondering why you didn't bulb feudalism with your 100bc GE (which is something you advocated as a benefit of this strategy).

Since the GE was my second Great Person (my first Great Person was Scientist for an Academy in Berlin) I already had Code of Laws (access to Civil Service), was already running Caste System (Serfdom wasn't attractive), and had a very peaceful diplomatic situation (was not in need of Longbows or Vassalage). Just thought the Great Engineer was better off rushing a wonder that might help my Great Scientist production. I think the GE Feudalism bulb is best utilized as early as possible and then taken advantage of. The GE would need to be the first Great Person and the situation would need to be appropriate. Hopefully I'll post one of those maps.

ii) I'm also wondering about your diplo victory date. I'm guessing it wasn't super early if Victoria had time to build the UN.

Not early at all! I was in a very strong position throughout, but was (for whatever reason) thinking I would just chill and see how quickly I could launch a space ship (I actually don't go for that victory often). Then Hannibal attacked me and put me into war mode. Did not go on the offensive until the 20th century. Used Infantry, Panzers, and Marines. Victory date was 1954 or something like that, much later than need be considering the strong position I was in.

 

[bhavv]

Is there a kind of victory which is called the fastest LIB?

Not really. Even if you arent the first to Lib, it doesnt make or break the game.

I think I'll give this a try now for the fun of it.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I haven't played the map or followed the various ins and outs of the (many!) acrimonious discussions that led to this thread. But for this to be considered a strategy, I think that you need to define with greater exactitude some of the parameters under which it is optimal to avoid BW.

From what I can tell, the following are verging upon the necessary:

• An arid map (minimizing forests)
• Few forests in the capital's BFC
• Few forest or jungle tiles in the neighboring land (jungle patches are still common on arid maps)

The following are advantageous:

• Events on (limiting efficacy of Slavery)
• Surrounding land has poor food (limiting efficacy of whips)
• Stone in BFC (GE Bulb path; GM with GLH)
• Marble in BFC (GS Bulb path)
• Industrious leader

The following are helpful:

• Peaceful, non-expansive neighbors.
• Resourceless UU (esp. in lieu of the metal equivalent)

My criteria wouldn't be nearly as strict. 1) Less forests you're in a rush to chop early on (as opposed to chopping them later). 2) Less food in the secondary cities perhaps (I was surprised how people took every little fishery as a whipping opportunity). 3) either a peaceful diplomatic situation or a non-metals military (archery-based, elephant-based, horse-based, catapult-based, etc...). Remember, only the GS Liberalism bulb comes "late." The GE Feudalism bulb and GM Civil Service bulb can come early, so you really don't have to wait that long before getting Bronze Working.

Stone is required for the GE Feudalism bulb. No resources (or wonders) are required for the GS Liberalism bulb or the GM Civil Service bulb. I've had some non-arid maps that were appropriate too, but certainly that cuts down on food.