Delayed Bronze Working Start

[Zx Zero Zx]

Hmm.... let me think...... maybe that whipping and chopping is always great? Like, ALWAYS? It's very possible to delay BW, but up to the point where you have Lib? How will you even leverage all the building possibilities you unlock on your way? You can even delay slavery or just forgo it completely sometimes, or you can save alot of forests for later, but saving forests and not whipping means no production forever... it'll just hamper your expansion and research speed so much that it just won't be worth it.

If we'd be talking about "Delay BW until after Alpha, so you trade for it" it'd be a different case, but we're talking about "Delay BW until you've Lib" or something alike... I fail to see it working in a way that's arguably just-as-good or even better than the slavery/chop approach.

But again, i'm open minded, convince me. To repeat myself again: Just hasn't happened yet.

So Brennus winning at 1954 AD with a Diplo victory on IMM didn't impress you with his immense skill? It sure convinced me that this strategy is amazing!

 

[pigswill]

Need to be a bit cautious with ad hominem judgements. BQ may not be a hardcore deity player but that doesn't in itself invalidate the strategy.
It wouldn't be good if only deity level players were allowed to post strategy ideas without derision of their playing skills and by implication their ideas.

 

[vranasm]

I recommended an Immortal Great Plains game for HOF IX, although I made it conquest thinking of the Feud bulb. (Guess we could still change it into culture to test the Lib race.)

most players will choose start in the east due to the starts there being better then west. (more food, better food, horses etc, whereas west starts have bad food and gold...not convincing imo)

even Oxfordless Space Hatty challenge done by iggy was start in the east due to easy access to horses and good food/trees.

the only way this would work if you make specific BOTM map with start in the middle (those areas are usually completely plains with plains cows), but I am sure tons of players will hate on you ;-).

edit:
I actually thought you will choose the settings Brennley used for this map, aka Arid/Fractal, but from my experiment it seems like the map posted here is VERY unPROBABLE...I rolled cca 40 maps with this settings and actually never saw start like this and the most "promising" one checked were with some desert, but certainly not like this map with half continent being desert.

 

[krikav]

As for why people find this whole ordeal interesting, it's most likely due to our psychological tendancy to root for the underdog.

http://www.radiolab.org/2011/aug/23/winning-side/
http://hbr.org/2010/11/capitalizing-on-the-underdog-effect/ar/1

The possibility that a less favourable strategy would prove itself, is extremly appealing.

Worth to mention is that the whole thing "no-bw"-thing, started in a thread about serfdom. I don't think that is a coincidence.

 

[UnforcedError]

most players will choose start in the east due to the starts there being better then west. (more food, better food, horses etc, whereas west starts have bad food and gold...not convincing imo)

even Oxfordless Space Hatty challenge done by iggy was start in the east due to easy access to horses and good food/trees.

the only way this would work if you make specific BOTM map with start in the middle (those areas are usually completely plains with plains cows), but I am sure tons of players will hate on you ;-).

edit:
I actually thought you will choose the settings Brennley used for this map, aka Arid/Fractal, but from my experiment it seems like the map posted here is VERY unPROBABLE...I rolled cca 40 maps with this settings and actually never saw start like this and the most "promising" one checked were with some desert, but certainly not like this map with half continent being desert.

I know that (in fact I may roll up one on the East myself ). The idea was to give players the opportunity to have a high hammer not much excess food start without too much forest (the hilly West would probably be OK for this and you one may get a very playable start there with all those minerals and metals). The idea was to choose Oracle-huggers as opponents which would (hopefully) make oracling Feud difficult (this might otherwise be a very good tactic in a Pangea-type conquest game). If you have better suggestions, I'll take them gladly. I don't think arid Fractal is the best choice for this either. I thought of highlands or global highlands too, do you think that might be viable?

 

[vranasm]

I know that (in fact I may roll up one on the East myself ). The idea was to give players the opportunity to have a high hammer not much excess food start without too much forest (the hilly West would probably be OK for this and you one may get a very playable start there with all those minerals and metals). The idea was to choose Oracle-huggers as opponents which would (hopefully) make oracling Feud difficult (this might otherwise be a very good tactic in a Pangea-type conquest game). If you have better suggestions, I'll take them gladly. I don't think arid Fractal is the best choice for this either. I thought of highlands or global highlands too, do you think that might be viable?

I will have to check, but i think highlands give plenty of trees. What about arid tectonics or something like that?

 

[UnforcedError]

I will have to check, but i think highlands give plenty of trees. What about arid tectonics or something like that?

Unfortunately Tectonics is not permitted for HOF...

 

[Mylene]

Need to be a bit cautious with ad hominem judgements. BQ may not be a hardcore deity player but that doesn't in itself invalidate the strategy.
It wouldn't be good if only deity level players were allowed to post strategy ideas without derision of their playing skills and by implication their ideas.

I cannot read this anymore Pigswill sorry, and i like you
Deity has nothing to do with his article, on every (serious) difficulty level this strat would slow you/me/everyone down.

On every map, in every situation. I didn't play Civ4 for 5+ years, and suddenly come across something completely different to what i slowly learned.
It's not happening, like Ahcos said, no matter how much you research and try.
And Brennus made enuf wiseguy comments, and brought counters upon himself.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I have to say, the rudeness on this thread is shocking! The strategy is controversial, but Brennus has shown this to be a viable strategy on Immortal (for this map at least). I think that should be applauded considering that he has been able to form a strategy for this game despite it being many years old now!

This just highlights the beauty of Civ IV! There is so much complexity to it that even 6/7 years after release, a new successful (I haven't said optimal) strategy can be thought of. Rather than be rude to each other, we should be glad we are able to play such a versatile game with seemingly limitless possibilities!

Thanks for this.

But if you state that there are real advantages of your strategy compared to the classic approach, you have to be ready to prove it…

Yes, the challenge of proving it "optimal" on some maps is still there. I agree with that (even though it has already been proven "viable"). But in academics, theories are often times proposed before the proof is available. There are deductive and inductive approaches to knowledge.

To me it seems like he try to show that its viable on some starts. IMO he fails, cause bulbing early with great engineer is never worth it, (you could get Great Library or Pyramids with that engineer) and some beakers closer to Liberalism is not worth it either cause you could have more cities/infra/military instead.

You can't build the Pyramids with the Great Engineer because it is most likely the Pyramids that are generating the Great Engineer! And if you're getting a non-Bronze Working Great Engineer from the Hanging Gardens then the Pyramids are likely already gone anyway. The Great Library, or any other wonder that syncs with your strategy, can be a very good use of an early Great Engineer. I'm not downplaying that type of move at all. But I would also point out that many Deity players already bulb Machinery with their early Great Engineer, and Feudalism has the same value. This map here didn't even explore that option.

I was one of the folks who asked for this. Thanks for posting it!

I am a bad person for finding the ensuing discussion hilarious, but I do.

You're welcome. Thanks for checking it out. And no, I found some of the discussion to be hilarious too. I even had to write "Haha" on occasion, as you read.

I dont think he has proven that you can get lib earlier. At least not with tech trading on. Besides, you cant compare with dates only, you have to consider tech pace of opponents. If you trade all techs away, you can get Lib earlier, but it will be worth less.

I agree with all of these points. I certainly haven't "proven" that one can get it earlier (although my hunch is that you can—caste system opens up all the scientists that you want). I also agree with you that the relative tech level of the AI is one of the most important things to look at. In fact, I think the greatest benefit of this strategy is that you trade less with the AIs thereby advancing them less and creating more "technological separation."

All he has proven is that you can get marginal profit for a huge gamble IMHO.

I actually think this strategy involves less gambling. Not taking a chance on metals, and not taking a chance on losing out on Liberalism.

I still have to test it, but I think you can get Lib earlier (and more certainly) on more suitable map like many times mentioned Great_Plains, with an average start there (plains cows as only food with many brown tiles). Especially for cultural victory since you don't want to whip cottages without food surplus, and there usually aren't any forests around.

Brennus' strategy doesn't fit most of the maps and victory conditions, but that was never stated. And how many people here knew if you skip BW, you can make Lib so much closer until this thread.

I didn't.

It is a shame this thread didn't evolve into tweaking this strategy to its max, so it could be judged accordingly. Brennus did show some inexperience with the game by some statements, but there should be more experienced people here to moderate ideas to its max. Not to mock and dismiss without consideration. Like everybody knew everything about the game when they started playing it. If we react like this to any new idea, there will not be any more ideas and this forum will get boring and die.

This type of contribution from a Hall of Fame player is very much appreciated. I also agree that Cultural victories are well-suited. In fact, you don't even need Bronze Working to get a Cultural victory. Actively avoiding Bronze Working will open up a more direct bulb path to Liberalism, and then the tech you are likely to snag (Nationalism) doesn't require Bronze Working either, so there need not be any delay. You can get the Hermitage and Taj Mahal up quick. I do believe that some isolated starts are especially suited for cultural victories. That takes out tech trading concerns for the first 5000 years. The delayed Bronze Working Liberalism bulb might be perfect for that type of play (I think other scenarios too, but this one appears to line up particularly well).

And people who did not favor DEFAULT settings were depicted as lesser players which were resorting to cheap tricks such as tailoring the maps to suit their capabilities.

Simply not true. I posted, and defended the posting of, a huts/events map. I never insinuated that those who don't like huts and events are "lesser players." I did state that slave revolts are part of the true "slavery experience" and should be calculated into the costs of going that route. And that is just one way that events affects strategy.

It's also a pity that Brennus did not present this as a work-in-progress, but rather as a finished guide, in which he made extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.

I think it quite accurately and convincingly already highlights the benefits that emerge when you avoid Bronze Working, and that itself is a contribution. The question at debate still is whether the costs of avoiding Bronze Working can be worth it. I certainly believe so. But I am happy to add a caveat to the article to say that I am merely an Immortal player at the moment and that the article is not embraced by all. In fact, I will do that. So that's two suggestions that you've made that I have since added to the article.

And yet being controverstial is a way to attract attention.

I didn't actually know it would be so controversial. And I've got enough stuff going on in real life, that I don't need to go out of my way to attract unworthy attention to some cyber alias. I think the fact that I've been a member of the forums since December 2011 and only first posted a comment about delaying Bronze Working as part of a Serfdom thread 8 months later shows that I'm not merely an "attention grabber." You also don't see me posting in every thread to get attention.

So Brennus winning at 1954 AD with a Diplo victory on IMM didn't impress you with his immense skill?

I'm sure it impresses people just a bit more than your "slave revolt/quitting" contribution.

I cannot read this anymore Pigswill sorry

Didn't you already exit the discussion a long time ago (and encouraged others to do so as well)? You're actually not obligated to post in every thread. You're already on the record as a non-believer.

 

[vranasm]

I guess this is something we talked about here? Tried the map to T48 and honestly I would say BW is needed

Immortal Rammess WITH events, no huts obviously though (actually got pasture with road for free T20 ;-))

Otoh one can enjoy flood plains cows :-D never saw that before ;-)

 

[Heathcliff]

I found that on some maps it's viable to delay bronzeworking.
You can trade for it when you get alpha.

On commerce poor starts you might need to get the cottages up fast to pay for your early expansion.

 

[The Oz-Man]

...how do you even get flood plains moocows?

 

[UnforcedError]

I guess this is something we talked about here? Tried the map to T48 and honestly I would say BW is needed

Immortal Rammess WITH events, no huts obviously though (actually got pasture with road for free T20 ;-))

Otoh one can enjoy flood plains cows :-D never saw that before ;-)

I think so, although I rather thought of a western start in the hills. You're right though. That region in your map has way too much forest to make delaying BW viable. As for Thebes: wet wheat and FP cows plus some more cows? That should be more than enough for whipping at least in my book...

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I think so, although I rather thought of a western start in the hills. You're right though. That region in your map has way too much forest to make delaying BW viable. As for Thebes: wet wheat and FP cows plus some more cows? That should be more than enough for whipping at least in my book...

That start has way more than enough food to whip.

 

[Doshin]

I kind of think this has been a useful thought experiment and a good spur for discussion, but, as of yet, nothing more. For instance, I had not considered some of the bulbs available to the player who avoided the BW path. And it's always nice to see people getting caught up in discussion of Civ.

It seems to me that the 'controversy' arose when Brennus referred to his strategy as "advantageous," "more efficient" and "attractive on about 30% of all random terrain/random sea levels/fractal maps" (etc.). This was coupled with some remarks about his general versatility as a player, as evidenced by this strategy.

The counter arguments have essentially stated "no, beyond Alphabet (at the very latest) it's counter-productive to avoid BW, except perhaps on a doctored map." "Versatility" has either been substituted by "bad play" or, more kindly, "out of the box thinking."

The naysayers (almost everyone) outnumbered the believer (Brennus) from the beginning. The games provided so far have done nothing to counter the naysayers' arguments, although most people I think would welcome this happening.

Viability isn't enough for me, because strictly speaking a "cottage every tile possible" game could also be viable (OMG, so much late game commerce). That doesn't mean that it's efficient or advantageous or useful. I've won religious economy Deity games before (India, Oracle, four shrines in capital, eventual culture victory). But I'd never advocate this as being a good way to play.

So again, I think greater precision is needed in demarcating the circumstances under which BW should be avoided after Alphabet and, more importantly, how this is actually beneficial. Cultural victory on a food poor map seems the most (only?) promising way forward to me, especially since (according to jesuin's guide) the quickest culture victories require heavy cottaging, the Mids, and Nationalism. The Feudalism bulb may also have something going for it with a Philosophical leader.

Maybe further discussion/games could look to transition from discussions of viability to efficiency (focusing upon post-alpha BW avoidance strategies).

 

[vranasm]

I think so, although I rather thought of a western start in the hills. You're right though. That region in your map has way too much forest to make delaying BW viable. As for Thebes: wet wheat and FP cows plus some more cows? That should be more than enough for whipping at least in my book...

I chose ramess for very specific selfish reason... actually it's one of best leaders to hunt for SSE/WWE economy which should be viable if you land SH here...

I missed it by 3 turns on T40, but that had to be wrong order of techs :-(. I think if you go AH->myst->masonry build sh either before setter or after you should get it.

The start has low natural production with no hills which I realized once i started to build Mids (you get stone nearby if you place on stone city 2) thus I slowly convert into the thinking of "whip s/w into mids".

But I think you can delay BW here until some crucial techs for SSE.

Another problem here is that I didn't see any kind of horses so barb defense will be tough

As it seems no one wants to touch the game anyway so I give free info

 

[Cusanus]

I found that on some maps it's viable to delay bronzeworking.
You can trade for it when you get alpha.

Everybody aggrees with you on that.

But the question in this thread is: should you ever delay BW until after Education?

 

[shakabrade]

This type of contribution from a Hall of Fame player is very much appreciated.

Well, I am not actually HoF player. That slot is my first and only HoF game so far from my first attempt with barbs on and an above average start. So it wasn't even played with HoF start (although leaders were hand picked). I am not saying being HoF is bad but it is simply not accurate since I played only one HoF game in my life. BTW, that victory date is easily beatable, and I welcome everyone to do so. Playing bad starts in S&T is more like my cup of tea.

@vranasm

Vranasm, that start already has too much food to avoid BW. Just like Brennus' start did.

BTW, I am generating Great_Plains starts and looking surrounding land and it seems more than half starts so far would do better with slavery. If you start in arid part, you'll have more than 6 food surplus but will have very low production. If you want to build anything but settlers and workers, that is bad. So you need to whip a bit. Happy cap can be a problem, but that is why there is Hereditary Rule.

If you start in forest part, well, you have tons of forest, so BW is no brainer.

However, there are some starts with many plains hills and some food to work them, while surrounding land is mostly brown and godawful.
In those cases, optimal way to play that start would be delaying BW and relying on natural production.

Another factor should be taken in consideration when deciding on avoiding BW. Leader should not be SPI. SPI leaders profit most from Slavery+OR/Caste System+Pacifism cycles. Even on food low starts you can sometimes afford a whip and with SPI you don't get anarchy.

 

[DrakeD]

You can't build the Pyramids with the Great Engineer because it is most likely the Pyramids that are generating the Great Engineer!

I was thinking of oracle metal casting and chop a forge in another city. That way pyramids has a good chanse of being available when you get the engineer.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I was thinking of oracle metal casting and chop a forge in another city. That way pyramids has a good chanse of being available when you get the engineer.

No harm, but (with all due respect) I think it shows that you haven't read the article. It only discusses Great Engineer bulbs that are opened up by avoiding Bronze Working (i.e. Feudalism, and to a lesser degree Construction). Once you got a forge you won't be bulbing either one of those two things. And without Bronze Working the only way to get an early Great Engineer is through the Pyramids or the Hanging Gardens.