Design a Unit 2 Discussion and QA

[Love]

Pretty funny, a non-combat unit whith blessed promotion can defence..

 

[TheJopa]

Frozen vomit, I think that unit that makes wildernes more dangerous is always good, and damaging units is ok if they have a chance to run away (watching them die for 10 turns would be frustrating) However about basilisk skin givin 1 cold defence strenght. It would be better and more useful if it gave 1 cold strenght and defence against cold (and besides ability to give elemental defense/attack is not yet in)

 

[Seont]

Domingo, please read the following as constructive suggestions representing my own oppinion. I like the doppelganger unit idea, but i was wondering if there weren't a way to make him a little more "dopplegangery", for lack of a better, made up and mispelled, word.
changing the graphic to the last unit killed(if possible) is interesting, but without it having an effect on anything, doesn't seem like enough to me personally, i mean all the stats and everything would show up the same, so you couldn't really trick anyone or anything, definitely not the AI.

For example, if the unit could fake the nationality of who it just killed, but that would likely lead to false bug reports and aggrevation and confusion by players trying to figure out what the heck was going on. So i don't think that would work, but i offer it only as an example.
i had a previous idea that i personally think might work, and that was the unit assuming the promotions of those it killed without it being able to earn experience itself. This is something you sort of started on, with your comment,

(representing knowledge gleaned from the fallen unit)

and it strikes me as a little "dopplegangery". Atleast, what i know a doppelganger to be, which may differ from you drasticly.

Regardless, i like the idea, and am only trying to respectfully offer my oppinion and a suggestion, for what its worth.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Frozen vomit, I think that unit that makes wildernes more dangerous is always good, and damaging units is ok if they have a chance to run away (watching them die for 10 turns would be frustrating) However about basilisk skin givin 1 cold defence strenght. It would be better and more useful if it gave 1 cold strenght and defence against cold (and besides ability to give elemental defense/attack is not yet in)

The thing with the ten turns is not meant to frustrate players but to give them a chance to rescue their units by breaking the spell of the basilisk (killing it by a hero for instance.) I think the time window is not more frustrating than encountering spiders or bears in the early game who kill units anyway. Higher level units would last longer and have a greater chance that they can flee anyway.

As we are not submitting world units i thought it would be overpowered (and not really flavorfull for a unit that basically only defends) to give a general strengh boost. But if elemental attack/defense values are not supported (yet?) I guess I will just remove it.

 

[R0GERSHRUBBER]

i still wanna make that blind dwarven seer...

Perhaps that could be an upgrade path for Khazad Adepts.

AFAIK, the only Khazad counter to Shadows is joining Overlords for Floating Eyes; they cannot build Marksmen and cannot summon Sand Lions. Am I missing something (besides options for capturing this sort of unit)?

 

[Master_Hugian]

Changed entry.

Had a nice idea while at work today and thought it much better than my old one

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Perhaps that could be an upgrade path for Khazad Adepts.

AFAIK, the only Khazad counter to Shadows is joining Overlords for Floating Eyes; they cannot build Marksmen and cannot summon Sand Lions. Am I missing something (besides options for capturing this sort of unit)?

So they can't terriform unless they go Leaves, and can't see invisible unless they go OO... though they're optimal, both flavorwise and gameplaywise, for Runes. I think this belongs over in the "Amusing Ironies" thread.

 

[Domingo]

Some comments about the Doppelganger.

My idea about assuming the model of the last humanoid unit it has killed would be primarily aesthetic. Having the unit be a true "infiltrator" and switching to the enemy while remaining under your control would most likely cause a number of issues. For that reason I just went for the compromise of keeping the unit Hidden Nationality.

I consider a doppelganger to be a sort of humanoid, shape changing monster that kills his (or her I suppose, I'm not going to delve into doppelganger gender) victim and summarily assumes the victim's form for either sabotage or spying purposes. I suppose it's debatable what sort of mythologies you're going to use for a doppelganger's abilities. I know some involve the doppelganger eating the victim or absorbing his memories to facilitate the assimilation into the victim's society. In terms of what I thought would be the most easily implementable by the designers, I went more for a raider than a saboteur.

If the unit were to be a saboteur I think it would be great for the doppelganger to be created as the member of a foreign civ, though under your control (or perhaps is created as your unit but upon killing your enemy's unit takes its shape and is flagged as a member of the opposing civ). The unit could then act like a spy in the vanilla civ (ie. sabotage), perhaps employing the same mechanic as the hidden nationality and being able to declare itself later. However, as you said and I agree, this facet would be difficult to implement.

If you have any more questions or doubts feel free.



Domingo

 

[Kael]

Just a reminder, the contest ends tomorrow. Be sure to have your entries in and in a final form.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well, everyone knows the ancient Greeks operated as 'city-states', right? And theyhad a bunch of philosophers running around, jumping into and out of bathtubs and chugging hemlock milkshakes. What more do ya need?

.

 

[Seont]

Some comments about the Doppelganger.

My idea about assuming the model of the last humanoid unit it has killed would be primarily aesthetic. Having the unit be a true "infiltrator" and switching to the enemy while remaining under your control would most likely cause a number of issues. For that reason I just went for the compromise of keeping the unit Hidden Nationality.

I consider a doppelganger to be a sort of humanoid, shape changing monster that kills his (or her I suppose, I'm not going to delve into doppelganger gender) victim and summarily assumes the victim's form for either sabotage or spying purposes. I suppose it's debatable what sort of mythologies you're going to use for a doppelganger's abilities. I know some involve the doppelganger eating the victim or absorbing his memories to facilitate the assimilation into the victim's society. In terms of what I thought would be the most easily implementable by the designers, I went more for a raider than a saboteur.

Kael has stated they like interesting and unique mechanics, so i would go for what appeals most to you personally, not whats easiest for them. what ever you see as the most fun or true to your vision of this unit. Clearly the design team doesn't mind a little hard work, especailly if it adds to the enjoyment of the game. In fact i have this sneaking feeling that while there may be only 1 winner of this contest, we may find more than one of the ideas offered make their way into the game. but that may just be wishful thinking

If the unit were to be a saboteur I think it would be great for the doppelganger to be created as the member of a foreign civ, though under your control (or perhaps is created as your unit but upon killing your enemy's unit takes its shape and is flagged as a member of the opposing civ). The unit could then act like a spy in the vanilla civ (ie. sabotage), perhaps employing the same mechanic as the hidden nationality and being able to declare itself later. However, as you said and I agree, this facet would be difficult to implement.

If you have any more questions or doubts feel free.



Domingo

I appreciate the response. As i said, i am only seeking to add a little more doppleganger feel to your unit, that you may or may not even think it needs. to that end i had one other suggestion to offer. What if the unit could assume the type of the unit it is attacking if that would give it an advantage, just for the duration of the fight. It would keep all its xp and promtions, that wouldn't change, just what the doppleganger was. For example, if the doppleganger were fighting a crossbow, and for the sake of arguement, the doppel was considered a melee unit, it would become a crossbowman, thus negating the enemies 50 percent towards melee. after the fight, assuming victory, its back to a doppelganager. addmittedly, this might make it a little too powerful.

Thank you for hearing my suggestions, and Good Luck in the contest.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The shade unit just proposed by Airwreck would make much more sense as a unique scout for Morgoth. Alternately, giving Invisibility and maybe HN to recon units could be an effect of the unemplemented Hidden trait, giving the equivalent of the unit both to him and the dark elves.

Imo, Quetz's Wyvern riders should be the holy warriors of the Cult of the Dragon. Perhaps any civ could build them, but only in cities with CotD. Alternately, they could require the Wyrmhold just like Abashi and Eurabates, but could be trained by who ever owns the shrine at the time. Better yet, they require CotD in the city and a Wyvrn resource, which could only be obtained through that shrine. It should produce 2-3, so your allies could train these too. They should have water walking to simulate flight, and perhaps could get the Fear promotion. Perhaps they could also get the Evalgelist promotion to spread their cult.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

Just curious, who won the former contest?

 

[Jono]

It was the Giant Spider.

 

[Kael]

It was the Giant Spider.

Yeap, by Abman. Here is a trivia question for you. Who is the only FfH team member to win one of these Design contests?

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

I seem to remember it was Nikis-Knight, but I forgot for what.

 

[Jono]

Well, it was before he was a member of the FfH team.

 

[Gamestation]

Yeap, by Abman. Here is a trivia question for you. Who is the only FfH team member to win one of these Design contests?

Well there you have it:

Congradulations to Nikis-Knight for winning the closest Design contest yet!

Now I just wasted a whole lot of time scouring the forum just for this one message. Oh well.

 

[DieselBiscuit]

Wow! There's so many great ideas both here and in the contest thread that I'm pretty happy to have my entry overshadowed The soul collector mechanic has a lot of potential; imagine Cassiels chosen ones traveling the lands to collect the souls of the dying ones who haven't pledged their allegiance to a religion, specialized confessors of the Order who contain and possibly destroy demonic soul etc. Could quite possibly be made into a special promotion with mechanics tied to which unit activates the effect/spell to provide different takes on it (spell spheres fueled by souls, anyone?). Any unit utilizing this would get my (sadly worthless) vote.

I'm also in love with the familiars that can be used as bonus promotions on mages.

Just thought of another mechanic that could be cool, namely a promotion that negates all other promotions the unit has. It could be implemented as a sort of curse spell with effects that wear off after a round and would be the ultimate hero-killer. Basically, if the spell works, you're stuck with a unit that's got only it's base strength and intrinsic boni until it wears off. Bambur doesn't look so tough now, does he? A variation on this could be that the curse only affects promotions that give combat boni (a fair bit easier to implement).

A propos the doppleganger business: I've tried my hand at implementing an effect that causes every player but you to view a unit as one of its own, but everything I tried made Civ crash like a mid 20s stock market. It's a tough one since it's tied to the graphical appearance of a unit which is reliant on code that is not available in the SDK. Would've been awesome if someone managed to pull it off, tho.

 

[Jono]

I just changed my entry so that the basilisk actually kills units (just slowly) and upped his strenght by 1. Please tell me what you think about it.

I think the frozen units should be invisible, so that other (player) units won't avoid the encounter.