Military Doctrine: Gang Warfare - <No Upkeep> Deafult (nothing special) Attrition - <Low Upkeep> Military Production +10%, -10% War Unhappiness, -20% Research Cavalry Core - <Medium Upkeep> All Cavalry Units get +4 Experience. Grand Army - <High Upkeep> +Free units (variable rate), 1/3 upgrade costs, +2 Experieance for all units produced. Stalwart Defense - <Medium Upkeep> All units get +20% while defending (Basically a free star promotion ONLY when defending - does not count toward experiance), Walls provide +50% defence, -1 gold from villages/cottages/towns. Siege and Smash - <High Upkeep> All seige units get +1 Str (Or free star promotion), All seige units get free mobility promotion, -30% Social Production. Stealth - <Medium Upkeep> All Hidden and Scout units get +2 experience, all Stealth units get blitz promotion for free. +10% War Weariness.
ADD: Magical Core - <Medium Upkeep> +4 Experience for Adepts, Summons Last one round longer, +1 Max Archmage and Summoners, -20% Miltiary Production.
These sound kosher? Feel free to add ideas on how to alter/add the types.
-Qes
Pretty good, though I might be a bit leery of there being a civic combination that allowed you to build magi out of the shop, or very near to it ( a couple turns). I dunno if Magical Core can get you there, but we should probably be aware.
Sounds cool, implementation isn't that bad I think on the art/civlopedia/tech-reqs side, but it may throw balancing out of whack.
I'd be perfectly willing to try something like this out, could be kinda cool. I mean Hippus running a Calvary Core military doctrine is just flavorful in so many ways.
I'd argue that Stalwart defense should be low upkeep by virtue of the hit you're already taking in your commerce area.
Pretty good, though I might be a bit leery of there being a civic combination that allowed you to build magi out of the shop, or very near to it ( a couple turns). I dunno if Magical Core can get you there, but we should probably be aware.
Sounds cool, implementation isn't that bad I think on the art/civlopedia/tech-reqs side, but it may throw balancing out of whack.
I'd be perfectly willing to try something like this out, could be kinda cool. I mean Hippus running a Calvary Core military doctrine is just flavorful in so many ways.
I'd argue that Stalwart defense should be low upkeep by virtue of the hit you're already taking in your commerce area.
You've a good point on the stalwart defense, ill change it.
And as for the balance - Each aditional TYPE of maintenance adds to the whole. So if you took a game you were playing right now, and added a "high" or "Medium" upkeep civic to it, youd take a large hit in your economy. Merely adding another catagory is adding more maintenance. I'm going to change "Gang warfare" to "soldiery". Simply because as is, it would change NOTHING. Everything else is adding maintenance to get benefits (with possible OTHER problems as well).
Balancing seems like it should be simple once its available.
As for the Magic Core, it seems to me that the hit in ALL other forms of military production justifys having higher level mages. Maybe the hit should be a bit higher, but i dont know as of now how it would work.
I like the idea, but not really most of the options. It's just sorta like, which unit do you want to give free experience to? I'd prefer subtler, but more varied distinctions. And probably fewer as well.
But that's easy to say, as I can't think of any at the moment.
I like the idea, but not really most of the options. It's just sorta like, which unit do you want to give free experience to? I'd prefer subtler, but more varied distinctions. And probably fewer as well.
But that's easy to say, as I can't think of any at the moment.
Hmm, we have a handful of civics that try to describe the general doctrine of your military... more or less how your military fights:
Gang Warfare --> State Soldiery <no upkeep> no effects
Attrition --> Barbarian Warriors <no upkeep> rest same as attrition
Cavalry Core --> Hit and Fade <Medium Upkeep> +1 movement point to military units, -20% city attack to all units, Calvary & Recon get +3 XP
Grand Army --> Drilled Discipline <High Upkeep> 1/2 upgrade costs, +3 Experience to Melee, Ranged, Calvary units produced. Units get a +20% to strength if they share a tile with an allied unit (to reflect their ability to use formations to maximum effect). Cut stalwart defense in favor of Drilled Discipline
Siege and Smash --> Artillery Support <medium upkeep> units have a -10% strength penalty unless they are accompanied by artillery, in which case they get a +25% to their strength.
Arcane Core --> Spell Slaying <low upkeep> -30% military production, Adepts gain +4 experience, upgrade to mage cost 1/3.
Arcane Core --> Divine Warriors <medium upkeep> Disciple Units +4 XP and gain the evangelist promotion (I think that's the one that spreads on conquest).
I think I've made too man. It would be interesting if we folded Divine Warrior's effects into Bannor's crusade, but that might be a bit... strong.
The General idea is that the two base choices (State Soldiery and Barbarian Warriors) would be the starting choices, with the Barbarian Trait -10% science removed and the CIV starting with Barbarian Warriors in effect. This way, the tribes could eventually civilize... though Kael might not want that.
It would however, give civilized nations the option of decsending into barbarism...
I Really like Hit and fade, that was what i was trying to think of with cavalry core but failed.
I think Stalwart Defense should be represented, simply becuase it differs in military tactics.
I like what you did to grand army, except since MOST people use stacks anyway, i want to avoid large bonuses for bigger stacks. I DO think that 20% (only once - not cumulative) is a good number. Maybe only +2 expereince (since they get a basic free star?).
Artillery support sounds good, but the idea i had is that you MOSTLY use artillery with a few defensive support units. This is different from "normal" methodology and i wanted to somehow reward the artillery unit, not the units supporting the artillery. Maybe All seige units (not just artillery) could get city attack 1 and/or 2? The payment for this is that it SHOULD be <high upkeep> and mayhaps a burden on social production. -20% building production, to represent all the focus on seigecraft.
Attrition IS a tactic in warfare, so I'm wishing to keep that named the same. I do think that <No upkeep> is a good idea for it.
I like divine warriors, but instead of
Spellcraft Warfare - (new name idea) I like the bonuses you put on them, much more diversified, but honestly i think it should be <medium> or <high> upkeep, because ANY of these options could upset balance easily in a game if their costs arnt high enough. The idea being that the State Soldiery and Attrition techniques, would be used if people want to change very little. If people wanted to specilize their military there should be a cost to it, and it shouldnt be cheap. Maybe Stalwart Defense could be Low - but im thinking most of the options should be either medium or high.
I like Divine warriors. Edit: Maybe Divine Warriors should represent more of the individual relgions associated than being a Spell Slaying clone. For example: Divine warriors - <medium upkeep> Units in catagory are given Evangalism Promotion and never cost maintenance. Leaves - Scout Units, Order - Archery Units, Octopus - Sea Units, Runes - Melee Units, Ashen Vale - Magic Units. All disciple units require 0 Maintenance, and have +2 Experience.
I still want the stealth option. Simply because i like the idea of some "Secret army" running around killing objects. Also works for woodsy type people. Is marskman a hidden or scout type unit? I picture them being able to get the same kind of benefits.
As of now:
Spoiler:
Soldiery - <No Upkeep> Deafult (nothing special) Attrition - <No upkeep> Military Production +10%, -10% War Unhappiness, -20% Research Hit and Fade <Medium Upkeep> +1 movement point to military units, -20% city attack to all units, Calvary get +3 XP Drilled Discipline (or "Grand Army") <High Upkeep> 1/2 upgrade costs, +3 Experience to Melee, Ranged units produced. Units get a +20% to strength if they share a tile with an allied unit (to reflect their ability to use formations to maximum effect). Stalwart Defense - <Low Upkeep> +50% defence from walls, Cottages provide +25% Defence, Villages +50% and Towns +75%, Towns/villages/cottages have -1 gold. Seigecraft <High Upkeep> Seige units gain +4 Experience, -20% Building Production Stealth - <Low Upkeep> All Hidden and Scout units get +2 experience, all Stealth units get blitz promotion for free. +10% War Weariness. Spell Slaying <Medium upkeep> -30% military production, Adepts gain +4 experience, upgrading casters costs 1/3. Divine Warriors - <Medium Upkeep> Units in catagory are given Evangalism Promotion and never cost maintenance. Leaves - Scout Units, Order - Archery Units, Octopus - Sea Units, Runes - Melee Units, Ashen Vale - Magic Units. All disciple units require 0 Maintenance, and have +2 Experience.
Locking Divine Warriors into Orders from Heaven could be somewhat dicey -- ie. we'd want to make the civic strong enough so that CIVs that weren't going to pursue the order would still find it worth their while sometimes... without overpowering it so much that the order path significantly overpowered the other religions. I'd be in favor of attaching it to the tech that gives you the Tier 2 Diciple units.
I still think that Soldiery and Attrition should both be available from the beginning.
I'd want spell slaying at the tech that gives you magi and conjurers (yes, this would mean that your early adepts would not benefit, but I mean, think about it... how would your army develop a doctrine of arcane warfare when it only has access to lv. 1 spells?)
BTW, I still think that stealth shouldn't stand on its own. Perhaps fold it into Hit & Fade? This would cause the civic to create a highly mobile, surprise attack oriented army.
Siegecraft doesn't seem worth it right now? Which are siege units? Catapults, Cannon (or whatever we call them) and Chariots right? Perhaps rework it a little so that it looks like this:
Siegecraft <high upkeep> (your units specialize in taking enemy cities) Units gain +30% city attack (essentially a free city raider I promotion, except that it could stack with city raider) and Bombarding units gain an additional 15% worth of bombard. -20% Building production.
it might be a good idea to use existing promotions as free, to maintain a balance with the units created from this, and to simplifiy the work needed for it
it might be a good idea to use existing promotions as free, to maintain a balance with the units created from this, and to simplifiy the work needed for it
Attrition available at start <no upkeep> +10% military production, -10% war weariness, -20% science
Hit and Fade available with stirrup <medium> all military units get +1 movement, -20% city attack, +3 XP for Calvary
Drilled Dicipline available with warfare <high> 1/2 upgrade costs, +3 Experience to Melee, Ranged units produced. Units get a +20% to strength if they share a tile with an allied unit (to reflect their ability to use formations to maximum effect).
Stalwart Defense available with masonry <low> +50% defence from walls, Cottages provide +25% Defence, Villages +50% and Towns +75%, Towns/villages/cottages have -1 commerce.
Stealth available with poisons <low> All Hidden and Scout units get +2 experience, all Stealth units get blitz promotion for free. +10% War Weariness.
Sigecraft available with mathematics <high> new units get a free city raider I promotion, bombarding units get the +bombard damage, -30% social production
Spell Slaying available with sorcery <medium> -30% military production, Adepts gain +4 experience, upgrading casters costs 1/3.
Divine Warriors available with priesthood <high> Disciple units and the chosen type of a religion gain Evangelism, have 0 maintainence, and get +2 XP
This looks sorta cool, but I want to debate/discuss the Divine Warriors a bit more before I'd feel cool with it.
Another thing we need to worry about is the spiritual trait and abusiveness , hey it could happen!
spiritual still has to wait 10 turns between changes, and most civs only have 1 turn anarchy in my experience so spiritual doesnt have too big an effect on that
a good name for those two together might be Formlessness one of Sun Tzu's strategies. And give them -20% city strength so they're bad at defending cities as well.
a good name for those two together might be Formlessness one of Sun Tzu's strategies. And give them -20% city strength so they're bad at defending cities as well.
Brilliant. I'm kinda partial to keeping it to Hit & Fade instead of Formlessness because a large amount of people might not get the reference, and to be honest, I'm rather fond of the name right now. But the minuses in cities period is awesome and I know it's quite doable (Tanks in the "War in the Desert" Mod that comes with the game have -50% in cities, if needed the code could just be lifted from there...)
We do, I think, need to prune this list by folding or cutting, because right now the list is 8, 7 if we combine. Knocking it down to 6 feels just about right.
rangers and such already have the negative city strength, so its already doable in FfH
the reason i chose formlessness is because it captures the spirit of both mounted and recon units, and hit and fade with stealth, where as Hit and Fade doesnt seem to apply to reconnaissance
id recommend not giving them blitz promotion, as its a fairly powerful and hard to get promotion ingame (id kill orthus just for that), and the rest of the bonuses are decent
about people not getting it, i doubt it, the people playing FfH tend to be fairly knowledgeable and the Art of War is well known especially amoung those interested in strategy (and strategy games).
ive been looking at the other civics, and theres 9 total, no? need a fair bit of trimming lol
id say remove divine warriors and add its functionality to Crusade.
and it might be a good idea to remove the spellcasting one and make this civic group about mundane armies (theres other civics focusing on magery)
then youd only have six if you combined hit and fade with stealth, then maybe combine two more and you'd have a succinct list
I agree, this is shaping up quite nicely. I think the Divine Warrios and Magi could be folded intogether, as i had them initially. Maybe simply ALL casters should benefit, divine or arcane, regardless. THis would represent a focus on magic in general, and not require anything dealing with religion to specify (which gets its own civic catagory anyway). I'm gonna call it sphere domination. And upgrade it to "high" upkeep since it adds quite a few bonuses.
* Soldiery available at start <no upkeep>
* Attrition available at start <no upkeep> +10% military production, -10% war weariness, -20% science
* Formlessness available with stirrup <medium> all military units get +1 movement, -20% city Strength, +3 XP for Calvary
* Drilled Dicipline available with warfare <high> 1/2 upgrade costs, +3 Experience to Melee, Ranged units produced. Units get a +20% to strength if they share a tile with an allied unit (to reflect their ability to use formations to maximum effect).
* Stalwart Defense available with masonry <low> +50% defence from walls, Cottages provide +25% Defence, Villages +50% and Towns +75%, Towns/villages/cottages have -1 commerce.
* Stealth available with poisons <medium> All Hidden and Scout units get +2 experience, all Stealth units get blitz promotion for free. +10% War Weariness.
* Sigecraft available with mathematics <high> new units get a free city raider I promotion, bombarding units get the +bombard damage, -30% social production
* Sphere Domination available with sorcery <High> -30% military production, Adepts and Disciple units gain +4 experience, upgrading casters costs 1/3. Disciple units get Evangelism for free.
I like stealth seperate, because its unlike calvary warfare because its specialized into many kinds of guerilla tactics, not merely hit and run. I DO LOVE the idea of formlessness - Sun Tzu was brilliant. And i think people SHOULD LEARN - much of civ referances must be sought after, and knowledge should never be shy'd from. Civ players can look things up. I also like what you did with seigecraft, far better. The blitz promotion is ONLY available to stealth units, and stealth units abilities are generallly limited. In this doctrine, they're simply nastier. They're still very unable to take cities with it. With increased war weariness the blitz promitoin fits in nicely (fast warfare - unable to maintain over time).
-Qes
Edit: 8 ISNT too bad for civic options. Really its still only "one more" when it comes down to it. The question is "which one"
I agree, this is shaping up quite nicely. I think the Divine Warrios and Magi could be folded intogether, as i had them initially. Maybe simply ALL casters should benefit, divine or arcane, regardless. THis would represent a focus on magic in general, and not require anything dealing with religion to specify (which gets its own civic catagory anyway). I'm gonna call it sphere domination. And upgrade it to "high" upkeep since it adds quite a few bonuses.
* Soldiery available at start <no upkeep>
* Attrition available at start <no upkeep> +10% military production, -10% war weariness, -20% science
* Formlessness available with stirrup <medium> all military units get +1 movement, -20% city Strength, +3 XP for Calvary
* Drilled Dicipline available with warfare <high> 1/2 upgrade costs, +3 Experience to Melee, Ranged units produced. Units get a +20% to strength if they share a tile with an allied unit (to reflect their ability to use formations to maximum effect).
* Stalwart Defense available with masonry <low> +50% defence from walls, Cottages provide +25% Defence, Villages +50% and Towns +75%, Towns/villages/cottages have -1 commerce.
* Stealth available with poisons <medium> All Hidden and Scout units get +2 experience, all Stealth units get blitz promotion for free. +10% War Weariness.
* Sigecraft available with mathematics <high> new units get a free city raider I promotion, bombarding units get the +bombard damage, -30% social production
* Sphere Domination available with sorcery <High> -30% military production, Adepts and Disciple units gain +4 experience, upgrading casters costs 1/3. Disciple units get Evangelism for free.
I like stealth seperate, because its unlike calvary warfare because its specialized into many kinds of guerilla tactics, not merely hit and run. I DO LOVE the idea of formlessness - Sun Tzu was brilliant. And i think people SHOULD LEARN - much of civ referances must be sought after, and knowledge should never be shy'd from. Civ players can look things up. I also like what you did with seigecraft, far better. The blitz promotion is ONLY available to stealth units, and stealth units abilities are generallly limited. In this doctrine, they're simply nastier. They're still very unable to take cities with it. With increased war weariness the blitz promitoin fits in nicely (fast warfare - unable to maintain over time).
-Qes
Edit: 8 ISNT too bad for civic options. Really its still only "one more" when it comes down to it. The question is "which one"
Perhaps fold Stalwart Defense into Drilled Discipline so that Drilled Discipline now reads:
<high> 1/2 upgrades cost, +3 XP Ranged, Melee, Calvary. +20% if they share a tile, +20% on Defense (so on defense in a stacked tile you have a 40% bonus).
Also, if we're still getting bad vibes from the free blitzing how about a couple drill promotions instead? (Drill I + Drill II sounds reasonable...)
You guys have done a good job. But some feedback-
Attrition doesn't seem necessary. I say just take it out. The effects are much the same as Nationhood, just not as good.
Formlessness I don't like the +1 movement points. I think that "free flanking promotion given out" would be better.
Drilled discipline has a couple of problems.
1. IRL at least, well drilled armies didn't evolve until much later than warfare.
2. The ai won't understand the neearby unit buff.
I would prefer to combine it with Stalwart defense, and have it be-
Drilled Defensemedium)
All archer and melee units start with drill one, drill two.
Units +25% cost.
+1 road movement.
Stealth is just wierd. I'd prefer it as:
All recon units get commando for free.
-20% culture.
Medium upkeep.
I'm not sure if the magicone would be overpowered, but I like the disciple evangelist effect so much I'm willing to try it out.
Perhaps to use any of these military civics you must be at war?
* Soldiery available at start <no upkeep>
* Formlessness available with stirrup <medium> All units get Withdraw I free, -30% city Strength, +3 XP for Calvary and scout units; Hidden units get the blitz promotion.
* Drilled Dicipline available with warfare <high> 1/2 upgrade costs, +3 Experience to Melee, Ranged units produced. Units get drill I for free. + X Free Units.
* Stalwart Defense available with masonry <low> +50% defence from walls, Cottages provide +25% Defence, Villages +50% and Towns +75%, Towns/villages/cottages have -1 commerce.
* Sigecraft available with mathematics <high> new units get a free city raider I promotion, bombarding units get the +bombard damage, -30% social production
* Sphere Domination available with sorcery <High> -30% military production, Adepts and Disciple units gain +4 experience, upgrading casters costs 1/3. Disciple units get Evangelism for free.
Ok the Alterations: Because Stealth confuses, I will fold it into formlessness.
The Whole point of "Grand army/Drilled Disapline" is that its based on having large stacks. its "stack warfare, so i altered it according to keeping to that premise. But i think it needs further altering, how to emphasise 'stackness'?
I want to keep stalwart defence seperate, becuase it differes from stack warfare in that its based more on the land (people) than stacks. Plus a doctrine that is soley defensive should be cheaper <low> than a doctrine of maintaing large stack armies <high>. The "benefit" of Formlessness was given withdraw instead of movement. Disapline was given "Drill" promoiton for free instead of Unit stackingness. Attrition was removed (unless someone can come up with a better cost/benefit for it.) Formlessness given -30% city strength instead of -20% for added "stealth-fold" benefits.
-Qes
EDIT: I'm keeping the blitz in for hidden units only...personlly id wanna see how it worked before i changed it. Quick little asssassins doing lots of damage.
EDIT2: Since there is a cost associated with each, i think that these civic options should be available whenever the tech allows. Waiting for "warfare" to occur would force anarchy during war...doesnt make much sense. If not "warfare" when should Drilled Disapline be available?
QES, how many people telling you that giving a promotion that requires an end-tree tech or the only magical item in the game for free is a bad idea will it take before you drop it, already?
Commando makes much more sense than Blitz for what you've described.
QES, how many people telling you that giving a promotion that requires an end-tree tech or the only magical item in the game for free is a bad idea will it take before you drop it, already?
Commando makes much more sense than Blitz for what you've described.
Because i dont see Blitz as being uber. Every battle weakens you, therefore weakens your odds for any repeated battles. DUring any sort of "equal fight" even if a unit has blitz, and wins, he/she's NOT LIKELY going to attack something of perfect strength again. Blitz is primiarily useful against weaker opponents, not equal or stronger.
Orthos Axe is cute, but honestly, I dont see it as a threat. Direct strength bonuses and odds multipliers hurt more. Blitz is nice for tactical situations, not over all strategic imporance.
The only time BLITZ becomes uber, is in situations LIKE the BLITZKRIEG. In which you use overwhelming force and in just a few turns eliminate another civilization. Flurries cant be in great enough number to do this, a single unit with orthos axe cannot do this, Fundamentally FfH2 Cannot do this. Therefore, blitz is NOT particuarly uber. Now, if you get a t4 megahero 16str or so, with blitz and a LOT of movement (also required to make blitz useful) then you have a one man army. But givein hidden units, like assassins and shadows this ability when they are commonly limited in number, means that you can sustain a few units that are DESIGNED specifically to attack weaker units, and it can cut down opposing forces with realative ease. It does not threaten the "larger" units of an opposing army unjustly however, since blitz itself does not provide any insentive TO attack again, even though your able.
Honestly, I see comando as being MORE problematic, because moving around enemy terrain quickly is usually more of a threat than being able (but not wanting to) attack multiple times. And commandoness is already taken by the "raider" trait. And im hesitant to make a civic emulate a trait.
People are "nervous" but I dont understand why. So i "dont drop it" because I really havnt been convinced yet. Now, specifically, it doesnt matter, the development team makes all the decisions, so what i say/argue doesnt matter a bit. But I myself am not as of yet, convinced. And I CAN be. I'm just not yet.
-Qes
EDIT: Even when i have the opportunity to chose the blitz promotion during a level-up, i still usually choose somethign that would be a % bonus, because thats how you win the fight. Blitz doesnt matter if you cant win.
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, hey it could happen!
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