Design: Civics

[SchpailsMan]

You would actually get a Diseased Corpse when your unit dies attacking, so that you wouldn't care much if they didn't survive battles. When attacking, you could send a first a weak living unit that would deal some little damage, die and turn to a diseased corpse, and then you would finish the job with another unit which then gets the XP and has higher chance of surviving the next battles. And when sending more expensive units in battle, you'd be less worried of losing them as you'd still get a lowly but better-than-nothing diseased corpse. I also don't care much about the cost, since you'd only get replacement units for those that died in the field, it wouldn't cost more than if the same unit had not died, would it ?

I don't think this would be a killer feature or anything, but it might just help making the Veil a little more attractive, and give players a good reason to stick with Sacrifice the Weak at least until they get a bunch of T3-4 units (those are sure too precious for mass-sacrifying). IMO, Sacrifice the Weak doesn't have to be a killer Civics you'd keep for the whole game once you get it (the same way that Arete is less efficient than Caste System for example), but it should at least be one you'd be happy to stick with for a period of time. Currently, it looks like a less attractive version of Slavery to me. Somehow, Slavery already allows you to get a new unit when defeating an ennemy unit ; now, if Sacrifice the Weak does pretty much the same thing but only when one of your own units gets defeated, that could be "different" enough not to make both civics look too much the same, and yet it could be a nice re-use of an existing mechanism that works well.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

I like everything that all of you......Xuenay, Nikis-Knight,Sure Shot and of course Qes had to say about the Magocracy Idea maybe the Team might consider it......but I am not sure about the power stuff........maybe a +1 gold per magic caster would be in order because wizards that run governments tend to either disallow anyone but them magic or refuse harder mundane means if magic does it quicker/better and for once are in positions to do it...

....It kind of depends on the Good/Evil slant ......so applying this goverment to FfH2 will present its own difficulties because of the timeframes involved I would think....D&D influence as well as a host of other games that are not D20 at all grants this view to me.

 

[Bad Player]

SchpailsMan I think that idea sounds good.

 

[Kael]

You would actually get a Diseased Corpse when your unit dies attacking, so that you wouldn't care much if they didn't survive battles. When attacking, you could send a first a weak living unit that would deal some little damage, die and turn to a diseased corpse, and then you would finish the job with another unit which then gets the XP and has higher chance of surviving the next battles. And when sending more expensive units in battle, you'd be less worried of losing them as you'd still get a lowly but better-than-nothing diseased corpse. I also don't care much about the cost, since you'd only get replacement units for those that died in the field, it wouldn't cost more than if the same unit had not died, would it ?

I don't think this would be a killer feature or anything, but it might just help making the Veil a little more attractive, and give players a good reason to stick with Sacrifice the Weak at least until they get a bunch of T3-4 units (those are sure too precious for mass-sacrifying). IMO, Sacrifice the Weak doesn't have to be a killer Civics you'd keep for the whole game once you get it (the same way that Arete is less efficient than Caste System for example), but it should at least be one you'd be happy to stick with for a period of time. Currently, it looks like a less attractive version of Slavery to me. Somehow, Slavery already allows you to get a new unit when defeating an ennemy unit ; now, if Sacrifice the Weak does pretty much the same thing but only when one of your own units gets defeated, that could be "different" enough not to make both civics look too much the same, and yet it could be a nice re-use of an existing mechanism that works well.

Im going to put a modified version on this in idea list for Fire where we are exploring some mechanics that this would work well with.

 

[Maniac]

Just reposting this here:

A refinement: as someone suggested in the Civics thread, perhaps make this possible under the Sacrifice The Weak civic, and not just the Veil in general? Also perhaps make it possible only for Diseased units. As it is, since the Overlords and Veil can't Cure Disease, for those two religions causing disease to your enemies isn't smart, cause you'll get it back in your face. Annoying since that means the Veil can't fully use their special unit: the Diseased Corpse. But if the Veil could get Diseased Corpses out of their diseased units dying, using disease yourself offensively might become more attractive.

 

[Xuenay]

+Religious Discipline
Upkeep: High
+10% research in all cities
-1 Happy from non-state religions
+2 Happy from State religions
Unlimited Priests

+Scholarship
Upkeep: High
+1 Happy per Library
+10% research in all cities
+20% War Weariness
Unlimited Scientists

Are these two really worth the High upkeep? The -1 happy from non-state religions is already a pretty steep penalty for Religious Discipline. For Scholarship, +10% research in all cities isn't really that much, and the +20% War Weariness works to counteract the +1 Happy per Library. Sure, Religious Discipline gives you unlimited Priests and Scholarship gives you unlimited Scientists, but in vanilla, Caste System gives you unlimited Artists, Merchants and Scientists, and it's only Medium upkeep. I don't think I've used Scholarship or Religious Discipline nearly at all.

 

[loki1232]

I like them since they have synergy with other things in the game.
1. The philosophical trait (free upkeep)
2. Prophecy of ragnarok and Inquisitions for Religious discipline.
3. That civic which gives free culture per specialist--either of these allows mass culture production from the unlimited specialists (without using that civic which allows artists but otherwise sux)

 

[Maniac]

I don't think I've used Scholarship or Religious Discipline nearly at all.

Wow I use Scolarship all the time (well except perhaps when in a long war).

I agree Religious Disclipine could use a boost though.

By only trying to have one religion, you're missing out on all the useful Temple effects:

+20% military production
+3 gold
+2 science
+1 health
+3 culture
+80% culture
or something like that IIRC...

 

[Xuenay]

Hmm, I didn't realize Philosophical gave you free upkeep on them. In that case it's a lot better, since I was looking at those from a "specialist economy" view (after stumbling on a thread about it in one of the vanilla strategy forums).

I don't think it's really possible to currently run a specialist economy in FfH, though, even for the Philosophical leaders. Reading through the analysis thread, it states that Pyramids (for Representation & extra specialist science) and the Great Library are necessary for a successful specialist economy. Currently, nothing in FfH provides beakers for specialists, and if I remember correctly the discussion in some thread before, the thresholds required to spawn more GP are higher as well. The end result is that there's really no way to support your economy with specialists alone - I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, since not everything in FfH needs to play the same way as in Vanilla, but if you want to give people more options in play style, I'd suggest giving at least the Kuriotates and the Grigori a way to boost their specialists' beaker income. (Culture is good as well, but you can't forgo building cottages because you get free specialist culture)

 

[Maniac]

Scholarship in fact gives all specialists an extra beaker. Of course still less than the +3 beakers of unmodded civ. But then again, towns can also produce 2 commerce less than in unmodded civ, so it evens out.
I'd say the specialists themselves are just fine in FfH. What IMO is indeed annoying though, is that Great People are harder to get. I suggested the increase of the GP threshold to decrease instead of increase (150 increase -> 100 increase -> 50) to reward a heavy GP strategy, but few replied to that.

 

[Xuenay]

Scholarship in fact gives all specialists an extra beaker.

Oh, I didn't realize that, either. Well, in that case it's starting to get a lot more attractive. I might still bump it up to +2 beakers/specialist, maybe even increase the War Weariness penalty a bit to compensate (to +40%?), to bring it into line with a vanilla specialist strategy - especially since the effectiveness of a specialist strat is still disputed in vanilla as it is, and both the Kuriotates (cap of 2-5 cities reduces the benefit of Caste System) and the Grigori (GPP going into adventurers reduces the GP usable to improve infrastructure) have minor handicaps in implementing it.

What IMO is indeed annoying though, is that Great People are harder to get. I suggested the increase of the GP threshold to decrease instead of increase (150 increase -> 100 increase -> 50) to reward a heavy GP strategy, but few replied to that.

I remember reading your post, and I agree with the reasoning. Hardly getting any GP isn't fun, especially when playing a Philosophical civ that's supposed to be good at getting them. So implement M@ni@c' s suggestion, please?

 

[Silverkiss]

maybe something like this: 100-225-500-1000-1500-1300-1000-700 etc... ya know, it increases but then decreases, benefiting heavy GP strategies

 

[vorshlumpf]

+Caste System
Upkeep: Medium
+1 Free specialist in every city
+2 Culture per specialist
Can spend gold to finish production

+Guilds
Upkeep: Medium
Unlimited Merchants
Can spend gold to finish production

Back to my concern with the Guilds civic, I had an idea the other day. Some civics give bonus culture per specialist or bonus beakers per specialist. How about Guilds gives +1 or +2

per specialist?

- Niilo

P.S.: I still think Caste System is overpowered

 

[Xuenay]

Back to my concern with the Guilds civic, I had an idea the other day. Some civics give bonus culture per specialist or bonus beakers per specialist. How about Guilds gives +1 or +2

per specialist?

I like that idea. Not only would it fit the flavor, it'd also help with the specialist economy and force an actual choice between Caste System and Guilds. No longer would CS be so obvious a choice.

 

[Sareln]

Concerning the Slavery Civic. Would it be possible to boost the slavetaking to 50% I hardly use them for rushing because they are so few, instead acting as a replacement labor force. Also the slaves have XP... does this mean they can be liberated later?

 

[Sureshot]

for slaves itd be nice if they gave more than +10 , its just so little, it won't take off 1 turn from any decent citys production time.

 

[vorshlumpf]

I like that idea. Not only would it fit the flavor, it'd also help with the specialist economy and force an actual choice between Caste System and Guilds. No longer would CS be so obvious a choice.

I still think CS is the obvious choice. Not only does every city get a free specialist, but each specialist getes +2 culture. Two synergistic bonuses that kick butt, in my opinion (though, admittedly, I am rather obsessed with culture bonuses).

If I have time, I'm going to play with my idea for Guilds to see what level of specialist bonus would make the Civic viable vs Caste System (which I always seem to get access to first).

- Niilo

 

[Jono]

Merchants are the best GP really, they give food, who doesn't want food?

 

[YohanLeafheart]

CS is really overpowered IMHO and a good enough reason to The Pyramids. Now, more on the topic, I agree that Religious Discipline doesn't seem to be worth High Upkeep, it is not that good. MY suggesiton, put "NO Spread of Non-State Religious" There for, you can't suddenly suffer the penalty of the civic.

 

[QES]

What about having an enterily new Civic Catagory?

Military Doctrine:
Soldiery - <No Upkeep> Deafult (nothing special)
Attrition - <Low Upkeep> Military Production +10%, -10% War Unhappiness, -20% Research
Cavalry Core - <Medium Upkeep> All Cavalry Units get +4 Experience.
Grand Army - <High Upkeep> +Free units (variable rate), 1/3 upgrade costs, +2 Experieance for all units produced.
Stalwart Defense - <Low Upkeep> All units get +20% while defending (Basically a free star promotion ONLY when defending - does not count toward experiance), Walls provide +50% defence, -1 gold from villages/cottages/towns.
Siege and Smash - <High Upkeep> All seige units get +1 Str (Or free star promotion), All seige units get free mobility promotion, -30% Social Production.
Stealth - <Medium Upkeep> All Hidden and Scout units get +2 experience, all Stealth units get blitz promotion for free. +10% War Weariness.
ADD: Magical Core - <Medium Upkeep> +4 Experience for Adepts, Summons Last one round longer, +1 Max Archmage and Summoners, -20% Miltiary Production.

These sound kosher? Feel free to add ideas on how to alter/add the types.
-Qes