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[Development] Alternative Map during 1.17

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Guano as a graphical variant?
     
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  2. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I have concerns about making timber a requirement for certain ships. The timber resources represents the "specialized" timber that is suitable for shipbuilding. Most colonizing countries had very limited access to this and had to import this. (Mostly from the Baltic Sea area) If we want accuracy, only these areas in Europe should have that timber resource. But then most of the colonizing civs won't have the ability to build ocean going vessels, which is inaccurate.

     
  3. Genghis Khaiser

    Genghis Khaiser Prince

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    I like the Timber suggestion, giving double production speed for Ships. I don't agree with it being a requirement for ships but it could give free upkeep like the Saltpeter idea. The latest cavalry units could also work like that with horses: Not needing them to be built but better if they own them.

    PS: Is there a way to know what the map currently looks like without having to download it?
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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  5. Steb

    Steb King

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    I'm not particularly enthusiastic about either resource, but they could work if:
    • They're part of the upkeep mechanic you mentioned, rather than being a hard requirement for building.
    • It becomes easier to get strategic resources by trade. This would mean for instance that a region producing timber (e.g. Scandinavia) would need several copies, and the AI would have to be willing to export them and willing to pay to import them.
    Timber suffers from an additional problem: in many areas, it is in practice a non-renewable resource that should be both widely abundant and get depleted quickly. For instance, at the time of European contact, the St. Lawrence valley was full of huge pine trees. They were felled on a large scale for shipbuilding during the Napoleonic Wars, and there have not been abundant such trees in the valley ever since.

    So it seems that the best way to represent timber is... just the current forest mechanics? The main issue, I think, is that forest tiles are beneficial only to the closest city (either from direct production or chopping bonus). So London can't build ships faster because you exploit lots of forest in North America. Maybe we could build upon the current mechanics to create something new. A random idea: you get a timber "resource" for every 10 or so controlled forest tiles. A tile with a sawmill counts twice. If you have enough forest to get multiple copies of the resource, you can trade it away. The chopping bonus could then be increased to account for the opportunity cost.

    Regarding fertilizers, there is a general pattern of late Renaissance/early Industrial techs to increase improvement yields, so I'm not sure it's worth deviating from that to tie the +1 food to a new improvement. Using fertilizers doesn't really mean building new farms (unlike e.g. railroads vs. roads).
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah, the points you bring up were basically my arguments back when Timber was first brought up.
     
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  7. Crimean Lord

    Crimean Lord Warlord

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    Well... My non-Gameplay argument for TIMBER's importance:cool:

    When Catherine II annexed Crimean Lands and also colonized Cubanian Steppes there was issue that new area have not enough TIMBER!
    As a result: few decades local administration construct a lot of military ships for Russian Black Sea' Naval using TIMBER from the Central Russia and from the North of Ukraine
     
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  8. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    Hi Leo, would you consider adding Honey into the mod? Why/why not? (I don't know if this has already been brought up previously, I apologize in advance)
     
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  9. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    :thumbsup:

    Timber would be a big boon for Canadian colonies and I like the idea of it influencing ship production specifically. I think we should even make it so that most European civs have to settle colonies to gain access to timber, though if Galleons require timber that would be a problem. I guess timber would also be bound by limited resource rules so they could have access to some in Europe or perhaps be forced to trade for timber with other European civs who have access.
     
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  10. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Adding Timber will also help the economies more Northern nations in the eventual update wherein trade routes will reworked to factor in resources.

    If I may throw my hat into the ring, one possible solution to the issue of countries like England having trouble gaining access to Timber could be if it allowed each Open Borders contract with a civ in control of a resource to grant a limited number of copies of its effect, thus making Trade Wars more strategic by blocking off rival access to resources, making Open Borders agreements something where one side can benefit more than another and through it making it not so much of a no-brainer to Open your Borders with all non-enemies and non-enemies of your allies, and all without making trading for resources outright useless.
     
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  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Merged a pull request by merijn_v1: Cochineal art variety for Dye
     
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  12. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    I did a lot of research on the internet, and found that the most relevant places in the production of Nitrate / saltpeter (and therefore would be suitable places for the resource) are China, USA, Russia, Canada, Chile, India, Peru and Morocco which are the more expressive. Other countries that have significant production / reserves of phosphate / nitrogen / potassium , which are important components in the fertilizer industry, are Indonesia, Egypt, Pakistan, Ukraine, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Jordan, Brazil, Syria, Israel, Belarus, Germany and Saudi Arabia. For gameplay reasons I think that of these only Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Germany and Trinidad and Tobago, should have the resource, the first three because they are areas of desert with few resources, Brazil (in Sergipe state) and Germany (in namibia desert) to represent high agricultural production and Haber-Bosch synthesis (this could become a wonder that gives synthetic saltpeter), the part of Trindad and Tobago would be a resource in dispute between European civs that can settle in the area (for that I think that the oil resource should move 1W and Salitre be put in place).

    The saltpeter resources of Chile, Peru, Trindad and Tobago and 1 or 2 other islands in the Pacific Ocean / Caribbean (Regarding the Guano Islands Act) could be replaced by the Guano variant, which could be an aquatic resource represented by islands with several birds flying over it.
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah, a Guano as a maritime resource makes a lot of sense. I would like to represent guano islands in particular.

    As far as locations for saltpetre go, I would prefer to rely on information about historical sources of saltpetre used for gunpowder production, rather than where the current output comes from.
     
  14. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    New update: implemented all open suggestions for the new map (see below):

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0189.JPG

    Moved sheep 1S to open Damascus tile, added wheat in Syria, turned further plains tiles at the edge of the desert into semidesert, moved opium east.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0188.JPG

    Placed cochineal variety on the map. @merijn_v1 I think the red could still pop a lot more. The cacti could be a bit bigger, with the insects even more emphasised. Look at the cotton for comparison, for example.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0187.JPG

    Added salt in Colombia, turned Galapagos into plains, added minor rivers in Ecuador (Guayaquil) and Nicaragua (San Juan).

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0186.JPG

    Added spices (African pepper) in the African Spice Coast.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0185.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0184.JPG

    Indian Ocean: more varied climate regions in Madagascar, moved rare earths to free Atananarivo, placed rainforest on a couple of islands, Socotra is semidesert + savanna trees, Male (Maldives) is a rainforest atoll.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0183.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0182.JPG

    Turned most plains in South China into grassland, added more marshes and bamboo forests, moved some resource locations around, turned more of Shandong into plains, added floodplains at the Yangtze and Pearl River deltas.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0181.JPG

    Decided against opening the Seto Inland Sea to the Pacific at the expense of Shikoku, but moved the fish into it to favour the west coast less, added some islands, and a hill in western Honshu.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0180.JPG

    Added some savanna in central South East Asia to reflect the drier inner regions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0179.JPG

    Added more hills in Bihar/Jharkhand, moved the Indian coal there as it was the first and is still the most important coal producing region of India.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0178.JPG

    Moved Iberian silver 1SW to be near Cartagena, the most important silve mine on the peninsula in Carthaginian, Roman and Moorish times.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0177.JPG

    Added Helmand river and a fertile floodplains tile in Afghanistan with rare earths nearby, added sheep in Kashmir, added marble in Makrana (Rajasthan).
     
  16. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    Some preliminary suggestions on where one could place saltpeter. Much of it is based on where the Ottomans, Safavids, Chinese etc. obtained it historically, but also some slightly more exotic locations. Some of the listed locations probably had minor historical importance. It seems very difficult to find much details.

    -India (Should probably have multiple around Bihar and the West Bengal. There was also production in Gujarat and on the Coromandel Coast.)

    -Atacama Desert (obviously)

    -Anatolia (Karaman province had more than 40% of Ottoman production around 1570)

    -Balkans (many locations around Thessaloniki, Plovdiv, Edirne, etc.)

    -Hungary (Budapest area and areas near modern Romanian border like Gyula and Csanád)

    -Cairo

    -Iraq (Wasit, Basra)

    -Aleppo area

    -Russia/Ukraine (Volgograd area, Poltava, Podolia)

    -Iran (Natanz)

    -Caucasus (Azerbaijan, maybe Dagestan)

    -China (Sichuan, Shanxi, Shandong, Gansu, Inner Mongolia, Turpan Basin).

    -Central Asia (Bukhara, Ferghana Valley)

    -Spawn west of Oslo (Rjukan) in 20th century (major production using hydroelectricity).

    -USA (cave deposits in Tennessee, Kentucky etc. which were important in the War of 1812 and the American Civil War)

    -Thailand/Burma/Cambodia (significant historical producers that used to supply e.g. Japan at times, especially Thailand)

    -Valley of Mexico

    -Morocco

    -Indonesia (Solor Archipelago)

    -Spain (Lérida)
     
  17. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I made a PR wherein the model is larger. I also made the bugs more bright red in an attempt to make them pop out more. Is it better this way?

    When I read this, immediately this image popped into my mind. An island completely covered under the sh*t of a giant bird. :lol:
     

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  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yes, that looks very good now.

    Merged a pull request by merijn_v1: more prominent cochineal art
     
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  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    New update:
    - changed inner Deccan to plains
    - replaced Rare Earths in Sri Lanka with Gems
    - changed Iron in Greenland to Uranium
    - added Aluminium in China
    - added a salt flat in Qinghai

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0191.JPG
     
  20. Steb

    Steb King

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    If I'm reading this right, there's one cochineal west of Lake Texcoco and one in Yucatan? This is perhaps a too high level of detail, but cochineal was produced almost exclusively in the Oaxaca region. I think Monte Albán/Oaxaca is the open plains hill south of the stone, so I would move at least one (and perhaps both) cochineal resources close to that. The incense tile in particular would be the perfect place to put it. The incense resource can be swapped with the dye or removed altogether, as I've suggested in the past.
    Noooo this is probably the suggestion I felt most strongly about! Oh well. Good for Shikoku I guess!
     

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