[Development] Alternative Map during 1.17

[1SDANi]

2. Nitre/Saltpetre

Guano as a graphical variant?

 

[merijn_v1]

I have concerns about making timber a requirement for certain ships. The timber resources represents the "specialized" timber that is suitable for shipbuilding. Most colonizing countries had very limited access to this and had to import this. (Mostly from the Baltic Sea area) If we want accuracy, only these areas in Europe should have that timber resource. But then most of the colonizing civs won't have the ability to build ocean going vessels, which is inaccurate.

From before the industrial revolution period the price of timber in England had been increasing as domestic quantities became more difficult to obtain. Many industries thus were forced to change to substitutes. As the industrial revolution progressed coal replaced timber for use as fuel, while brick replaced timber for use in construction.

It would be many decades, however, before iron could be used to replace timber in shipbuilding. By the eighteenth century England had not exhausted its supply of suitable domestic hardwood timber but – like the Netherlands – it imported softwood supplies. While every nation has trees and wood, ship timber is a far more limited product. The ideal woods were oak, Scots pine – but not spruce, and other large trees. Especially difficult to find were trees suitable to be masts, a crucial requirement for any sailing ship, and one that often had to be replaced after storms or wear. As suitable trees take decades to grow, in densely populated nations like England any given square meter of land could, usually, be far more valuably employed by producing foodstuffs rather than timber.

Timber was thus only viable industry in sparsely populated lands such as Scandinavia, those in the Baltic Sea area, and in North America. The Baltic countries, and especially Norway, had other benefits including superior sawmills, and often lower transport prices than distant overland travel. The British shipping industry, by the late seventeenth century, increasingly used imports of Baltic timber.

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

I like the Timber suggestion, giving double production speed for Ships. I don't agree with it being a requirement for ships but it could give free upkeep like the Saltpeter idea. The latest cavalry units could also work like that with horses: Not needing them to be built but better if they own them.

PS: Is there a way to know what the map currently looks like without having to download it?

 

[Leoreth]

This thread is still mostly up to date.

 

[Steb]

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about either resource, but they could work if:

• They're part of the upkeep mechanic you mentioned, rather than being a hard requirement for building.
• It becomes easier to get strategic resources by trade. This would mean for instance that a region producing timber (e.g. Scandinavia) would need several copies, and the AI would have to be willing to export them and willing to pay to import them.

Timber suffers from an additional problem: in many areas, it is in practice a non-renewable resource that should be both widely abundant and get depleted quickly. For instance, at the time of European contact, the St. Lawrence valley was full of huge pine trees. They were felled on a large scale for shipbuilding during the Napoleonic Wars, and there have not been abundant such trees in the valley ever since.

So it seems that the best way to represent timber is... just the current forest mechanics? The main issue, I think, is that forest tiles are beneficial only to the closest city (either from direct production or chopping bonus). So London can't build ships faster because you exploit lots of forest in North America. Maybe we could build upon the current mechanics to create something new. A random idea: you get a timber "resource" for every 10 or so controlled forest tiles. A tile with a sawmill counts twice. If you have enough forest to get multiple copies of the resource, you can trade it away. The chopping bonus could then be increased to account for the opportunity cost.

Regarding fertilizers, there is a general pattern of late Renaissance/early Industrial techs to increase improvement yields, so I'm not sure it's worth deviating from that to tie the +1 food to a new improvement. Using fertilizers doesn't really mean building new farms (unlike e.g. railroads vs. roads).

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, the points you bring up were basically my arguments back when Timber was first brought up.

 

[Crimean Lord]

*blows dust off this thread*

So, at the risk of adding way too many resources to the mod, I nevertheless want to open discussion about two additional resources that might be useful:

1. Timber
I think someone brought this up before but I resisted it at the time, but now I have been thinking about it some more and I think it has several advantages. My first idea is to give it a significant (such as 50%) production bonus for all ships, maybe accounting for it in overall ship costs, but building ships with Timber should be faster than it is now without. Major Ocean going vessels (Galleons, Frigates, Ships of the Line, Ironclads) could even require Timber outright. Then we could place Timber in locations with historically significant locations, for example Lebanon cedar to benefit Phoenicia. In addition, Timber is worthwhile as a resource that benefits northern climates, which are not already too resource dense. I especially thought about this in the context of settling North America, for which there are often not too many incentives. Historically timber was an important product of North American colonies, especially for the English.

2. Nitre/Saltpetre
I think this is interesting in two contexts: as a component of gunpowder and as a component of fertiliser. Given the historical distribution of saltpetre I don't think it makes sense to add it as a required resource to all gunpowder units because it would only ahistorically lock most civs out of them. However there are other ways to link them. For example there could be a Renaissance era building that gives additional experience to Gunpowder and Siege units but requires Saltpetre (Castles expire at the time and Gunpowder unit experience could be removed from Barracks). Later on, I would like to reform the unit resource requirement rules entirely and lock units less to resources. Instead having a number of resources would give free upkeep for a number of units that rely on the resource, and having Saltpetre in the game for that purpose would round out gunpowder units in that purpose. Regarding fertiliser, instead of giving +1 food to Farms with Biology the tech could unlock a new "Modern Farm" improvement that requires Saltpeter to be built. In that sense it would also provide more stuff to do for workers.

I think both of those don't really compete with all the luxury resources that have been added so far (except maybe in terms of space) and instead fill interesting niches for strategic resources of the mid game with late game applications. Right now I only want to open discussion of them, and if someone wants to suggest or research plausible locations for them that would also help a lot in making the decision. It's not that easy to find out beyond famous sources like Saltpetre in Chile and India.

Well... My non-Gameplay argument for TIMBER's importance

When Catherine II annexed Crimean Lands and also colonized Cubanian Steppes there was issue that new area have not enough TIMBER!
As a result: few decades local administration construct a lot of military ships for Russian Black Sea' Naval using TIMBER from the Central Russia and from the North of Ukraine

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Hi Leo, would you consider adding Honey into the mod? Why/why not? (I don't know if this has already been brought up previously, I apologize in advance)

 

[TJDowling]

...provide more stuff to do for workers.

Timber would be a big boon for Canadian colonies and I like the idea of it influencing ship production specifically. I think we should even make it so that most European civs have to settle colonies to gain access to timber, though if Galleons require timber that would be a problem. I guess timber would also be bound by limited resource rules so they could have access to some in Europe or perhaps be forced to trade for timber with other European civs who have access.

 

[1SDANi]

Adding Timber will also help the economies more Northern nations in the eventual update wherein trade routes will reworked to factor in resources.

If I may throw my hat into the ring, one possible solution to the issue of countries like England having trouble gaining access to Timber could be if it allowed each Open Borders contract with a civ in control of a resource to grant a limited number of copies of its effect, thus making Trade Wars more strategic by blocking off rival access to resources, making Open Borders agreements something where one side can benefit more than another and through it making it not so much of a no-brainer to Open your Borders with all non-enemies and non-enemies of your allies, and all without making trading for resources outright useless.

 

[Leoreth]

Merged a pull request by merijn_v1: Cochineal art variety for Dye

 

[Cacaso]

*blows dust off this thread*

So, at the risk of adding way too many resources to the mod, I nevertheless want to open discussion about two additional resources that might be useful:

1. Timber
I think someone brought this up before but I resisted it at the time, but now I have been thinking about it some more and I think it has several advantages. My first idea is to give it a significant (such as 50%) production bonus for all ships, maybe accounting for it in overall ship costs, but building ships with Timber should be faster than it is now without. Major Ocean going vessels (Galleons, Frigates, Ships of the Line, Ironclads) could even require Timber outright. Then we could place Timber in locations with historically significant locations, for example Lebanon cedar to benefit Phoenicia. In addition, Timber is worthwhile as a resource that benefits northern climates, which are not already too resource dense. I especially thought about this in the context of settling North America, for which there are often not too many incentives. Historically timber was an important product of North American colonies, especially for the English.

2. Nitre/Saltpetre
I think this is interesting in two contexts: as a component of gunpowder and as a component of fertiliser. Given the historical distribution of saltpetre I don't think it makes sense to add it as a required resource to all gunpowder units because it would only ahistorically lock most civs out of them. However there are other ways to link them. For example there could be a Renaissance era building that gives additional experience to Gunpowder and Siege units but requires Saltpetre (Castles expire at the time and Gunpowder unit experience could be removed from Barracks). Later on, I would like to reform the unit resource requirement rules entirely and lock units less to resources. Instead having a number of resources would give free upkeep for a number of units that rely on the resource, and having Saltpetre in the game for that purpose would round out gunpowder units in that purpose. Regarding fertiliser, instead of giving +1 food to Farms with Biology the tech could unlock a new "Modern Farm" improvement that requires Saltpeter to be built. In that sense it would also provide more stuff to do for workers.

I think both of those don't really compete with all the luxury resources that have been added so far (except maybe in terms of space) and instead fill interesting niches for strategic resources of the mid game with late game applications. Right now I only want to open discussion of them, and if someone wants to suggest or research plausible locations for them that would also help a lot in making the decision. It's not that easy to find out beyond famous sources like Saltpetre in Chile and India.

I did a lot of research on the internet, and found that the most relevant places in the production of Nitrate / saltpeter (and therefore would be suitable places for the resource) are China, USA, Russia, Canada, Chile, India, Peru and Morocco which are the more expressive. Other countries that have significant production / reserves of phosphate / nitrogen / potassium , which are important components in the fertilizer industry, are Indonesia, Egypt, Pakistan, Ukraine, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Jordan, Brazil, Syria, Israel, Belarus, Germany and Saudi Arabia. For gameplay reasons I think that of these only Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Germany and Trinidad and Tobago, should have the resource, the first three because they are areas of desert with few resources, Brazil (in Sergipe state) and Germany (in namibia desert) to represent high agricultural production and Haber-Bosch synthesis (this could become a wonder that gives synthetic saltpeter), the part of Trindad and Tobago would be a resource in dispute between European civs that can settle in the area (for that I think that the oil resource should move 1W and Salitre be put in place).

The saltpeter resources of Chile, Peru, Trindad and Tobago and 1 or 2 other islands in the Pacific Ocean / Caribbean (Regarding the Guano Islands Act) could be replaced by the Guano variant, which could be an aquatic resource represented by islands with several birds flying over it.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, a Guano as a maritime resource makes a lot of sense. I would like to represent guano islands in particular.

As far as locations for saltpetre go, I would prefer to rely on information about historical sources of saltpetre used for gunpowder production, rather than where the current output comes from.

 

[Leoreth]

New update: implemented all open suggestions for the new map (see below):

Spoiler :

Moved sheep 1S to open Damascus tile, added wheat in Syria, turned further plains tiles at the edge of the desert into semidesert, moved opium east.

Spoiler :

Placed cochineal variety on the map. @merijn_v1 I think the red could still pop a lot more. The cacti could be a bit bigger, with the insects even more emphasised. Look at the cotton for comparison, for example.

Spoiler :

Added salt in Colombia, turned Galapagos into plains, added minor rivers in Ecuador (Guayaquil) and Nicaragua (San Juan).

Spoiler :

Added spices (African pepper) in the African Spice Coast.

Spoiler :

Indian Ocean: more varied climate regions in Madagascar, moved rare earths to free Atananarivo, placed rainforest on a couple of islands, Socotra is semidesert + savanna trees, Male (Maldives) is a rainforest atoll.

Spoiler :

Turned most plains in South China into grassland, added more marshes and bamboo forests, moved some resource locations around, turned more of Shandong into plains, added floodplains at the Yangtze and Pearl River deltas.

Spoiler :

Decided against opening the Seto Inland Sea to the Pacific at the expense of Shikoku, but moved the fish into it to favour the west coast less, added some islands, and a hill in western Honshu.

Spoiler :

Added some savanna in central South East Asia to reflect the drier inner regions.

 

[Leoreth]

Spoiler :

Added more hills in Bihar/Jharkhand, moved the Indian coal there as it was the first and is still the most important coal producing region of India.

Spoiler :

Moved Iberian silver 1SW to be near Cartagena, the most important silve mine on the peninsula in Carthaginian, Roman and Moorish times.

Spoiler :

Added Helmand river and a fertile floodplains tile in Afghanistan with rare earths nearby, added sheep in Kashmir, added marble in Makrana (Rajasthan).

 

[stormogulen]

Some preliminary suggestions on where one could place saltpeter. Much of it is based on where the Ottomans, Safavids, Chinese etc. obtained it historically, but also some slightly more exotic locations. Some of the listed locations probably had minor historical importance. It seems very difficult to find much details.

-India (Should probably have multiple around Bihar and the West Bengal. There was also production in Gujarat and on the Coromandel Coast.)

-Atacama Desert (obviously)

-Anatolia (Karaman province had more than 40% of Ottoman production around 1570)

-Balkans (many locations around Thessaloniki, Plovdiv, Edirne, etc.)

-Hungary (Budapest area and areas near modern Romanian border like Gyula and Csanád)

-Cairo

-Iraq (Wasit, Basra)

-Aleppo area

-Russia/Ukraine (Volgograd area, Poltava, Podolia)

-Iran (Natanz)

-Caucasus (Azerbaijan, maybe Dagestan)

-China (Sichuan, Shanxi, Shandong, Gansu, Inner Mongolia, Turpan Basin).

-Central Asia (Bukhara, Ferghana Valley)

-Spawn west of Oslo (Rjukan) in 20th century (major production using hydroelectricity).

-USA (cave deposits in Tennessee, Kentucky etc. which were important in the War of 1812 and the American Civil War)

-Thailand/Burma/Cambodia (significant historical producers that used to supply e.g. Japan at times, especially Thailand)

-Valley of Mexico

-Morocco

-Indonesia (Solor Archipelago)

-Spain (Lérida)

 

[merijn_v1]

Placed cochineal variety on the map. @merijn_v1 I think the red could still pop a lot more. The cacti could be a bit bigger, with the insects even more emphasised. Look at the cotton for comparison, for example.

I made a PR wherein the model is larger. I also made the bugs more bright red in an attempt to make them pop out more. Is it better this way?

Yeah, a Guano as a maritime resource makes a lot of sense. I would like to represent guano islands in particular.

As far as locations for saltpetre go, I would prefer to rely on information about historical sources of saltpetre used for gunpowder production, rather than where the current output comes from.

When I read this, immediately this image popped into my mind. An island completely covered under the sh*t of a giant bird.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, that looks very good now.

Merged a pull request by merijn_v1: more prominent cochineal art

 

[Leoreth]

New update:
- changed inner Deccan to plains
- replaced Rare Earths in Sri Lanka with Gems
- changed Iron in Greenland to Uranium
- added Aluminium in China
- added a salt flat in Qinghai

Spoiler :

 

[Steb]

Placed cochineal variety on the map. @merijn_v1 I think the red could still pop a lot more. The cacti could be a bit bigger, with the insects even more emphasised. Look at the cotton for comparison, for example.

If I'm reading this right, there's one cochineal west of Lake Texcoco and one in Yucatan? This is perhaps a too high level of detail, but cochineal was produced almost exclusively in the Oaxaca region. I think Monte Albán/Oaxaca is the open plains hill south of the stone, so I would move at least one (and perhaps both) cochineal resources close to that. The incense tile in particular would be the perfect place to put it. The incense resource can be swapped with the dye or removed altogether, as I've suggested in the past.

Decided against opening the Seto Inland Sea to the Pacific at the expense of Shikoku, but moved the fish into it to favour the west coast less, added some islands, and a hill in western Honshu.

Noooo this is probably the suggestion I felt most strongly about! Oh well. Good for Shikoku I guess!