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[Development] Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 26, 2018.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Oh right, I didn't even consider that it was possible to use a different texture than the other coast tiles. In that case I like that Atolls have lighter water inside them, seems realistic.

    But you would need to custom build it for the specific tile and orientation, which seems like a bad solution to me. I don't see a downside to have two different terrains for Lagoons and Atolls considering they are quite different.

    This also serves to enlarge central North America (aka real America) at the expense of the eastern seaboard, which seems like the wrong priority.
     
  2. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    That's an even better solution.

    I didn't think of that. That makes sense.
     
  3. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

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    Oh, is that how it works? Yeah, I can do that.

    I agree with Leoreth regarding Canada, I think the parts east of the Great Lakes are more important.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yes, if you edit the terrain while the game is running (with WB or programmatically) the engine cannot keep up for some reason, but if a new scenario is loaded from scratch everything is fine.
     
  5. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    Saving the game and reloading also works.
     
  6. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    Ok, here's some elementary suggestions, mainly in China an nearby regions, also some suggestions about Britian and Japan.
    Spoiler :

    China and nearby
    X:128 Y:50 The Yangtze River enters to the sea, but not the lake.
    X:127 Y:51 The Huaihe River enters to the Yangtze River in north of Nanjing.
    X:127 Y:46 The Grassland here turns to Hill, represent the Wuyi Mountain; Sugar turns to tea, represent the oolong tea.
    X:127/128 Y:46 Add the Minjiang River(Fujian Province).
    X:125 Y:44 Move sugar to 1E(X:126 Y:44).
    X:128 Y:51 Remove jade here, Jiangsu isn't a famous origin of jade.
    X:126 Y:53 Add a gold here, to substitute the removed jade in Jiangsu. Shandong is an important origin of gold.
    X:128 Y:54 Add a salt here.
    X:124 Y:49 Change the type of Hanjiang River.
    X:121 Y:48 Change the Grassland here to Hill.
    X:119 Y:49 Change the Hill here to Grassland.
    X:120 Y:50 Change the Grassland here to Hill.
    X:120 Y:48 Change the Grassland here to Hill.
    X:119 Y:46-50 Add the Minjiang River(Sichuan Province)
    X:121 Y:52 Change the Hill here to Grassland.
    X:120 Y:54 Move the Coal here to X:123 Y:57, Shanxi is an important origin of coal.
    X:123 Y:57 Move the incense here to X:122 Y:56.
    X:122 Y:58 Add a horse here, Inner Mongolia is an important origin of horse.
    X:123 Y:56 Move the wheat here to X:124 Y:54.
    X:125 Y:55 Add the Haihe River here.
    X:130 Y:58 Add deer heer.
    X:119 Y:54 Change the Grassland here to Hill, and move sheep 1N.
    X:117 Y:45 Add marble here. Here is the city of Dali, marble in China is called "Dali stone", first found here in Chinese history.
    X:117 Y:44 Not sure if there should be an amber, Yunnan is not so famous with amber. I prefer to substitute it with tea, to represent Pu'er tea.
    X:109 Y:58 Add sheep here.
    X:107 Y:56 Add camel here.
    X:113 Y:49 Add cow here, to represent yak in Tibet.
    X:126 Y:45 Add rice here.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0254.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0255.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0256.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0257.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0258.JPG


    Spoiler :

    Britian and Ireland
    Add Shannon River in Ireland.
    Add Trent River in England.
    Add a uranium in Scotland.(Since the 4 other permanent members of the security council all have it in their core)
    I think the Britain Island should be enlarged, but haven't gotten a concrete plan.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0261.JPG


    Spoiler :

    Japan
    X:139 Y:62 Change the Grassland here to Coast.
    X:140 Y:62 Change the Coast here to Grassland.
    Make the 2 rivers in Japan 1 plot longer.
    X:136 Y:51 Add a coal here.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0259.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0260.JPG


    Save has been uploaded.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
    1SDAN, EdmundIronside and Leoreth like this.
  7. borhap88

    borhap88 Chieftain

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    There is my little comprehensive suggestion about Italy:
    - shift 2E (from x=65, y=57) the wheat in order to make space for a rice resource spawning in 1850 and to make it workable for Florence/Venice
    - switch southern olive and wine resources
    - add some grasslands under the Po river; in Rhye's map all land tiles from Rome to Northern Italy were grassland, so I think we should add at least some grasslands in Central Italy
    - add a forest to Corse because still today is mainly covered by forest
     

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  8. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

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    Not really a priority but I think it's cool. The river marked in red on the current map appears to me to be the Okavango River which appears to connect to the Zambezi (someone correct me if I'm wrong). In reality the Okavango is a closed system with one of the few notable inland deltas in the world, home to a great diversity of life (someone must have seen the same nature documentary I did). I thought it would be cool if we marked that on our map. It looks a bit silly to have a floodplain on the land but it looks a bit silly in real life too.

    This is my best approximation of the river without messing with the course of the Zambezi or Cobe Rivers too much. Maybe it could extend down one tile. It is roughly on the same latitude as the lake to the west.

    Spoiler :

    Okavango.png
     
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  9. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

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    Bunch of things:

    First, screenshots of the lagoons after saving/reloading to remove any artifacts. Note that one of the atolls has an artifact due to being on the edge of the map. I also removed the rainforest from one of them to show what it looks like. I think the lagoon looks nicer for Lake Texcoco now, and in fact it works quite well.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0056.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0059.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0055.JPG


    Second, what the Mediterranean looks like when the Baleares and the Aegean islands are full land tiles with resources.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG


    Finally, some changes to the Philippines (enlarged Mindanao but adding a peak to compensate, and moved the resources around) and Hawaii (basically just ported what was in the old map).
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0057.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0058.JPG
     
  10. ozqar

    ozqar Chieftain

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    A lot of things about Africa

    I spent a lot of time looking at Africa. Here are my thoughts and suggestions.

    To explain what I did, I first covered the whole continent with culture following modern boundaries, taking the coastline as the only reference to know where each country stands. I compared each country to their real life counterparts.

    I noticed two regions that don’t look quite like the real life counterparts: The Swahili Coast (it’s too short vertically) and Southern Africa (too small, vertically and horizontally, plus the Eastern coast doesn't look very accurate. I also noted some minor changes for the coastline in Western Africa, but didn't get to do those yet (will come later).

    I also wanted to make better terrain for all the civs playing there. For now, I focused on Egypt and Ethiopia, and also looked at the terrain in Tanzania/Kenya thinking of the Swahili. I want to look also at Nigeria, Mali, Zimbabwe, South Africa, and the Congo, but didn't get to those yet.

    As a disclaimer I did not look at all at resource placements. I placed recommended cities. On the Nile, the Ethiopian highlands, the whole Eastern African coast, and eastern South Africa, I favored more rather than less cities, shifting several of them 1tile outside of their real position (but still being accurate) to accommodate this. I can also see how to fit less cities could work so I can also change everything to show that instead.

    The Nile Valley
    I moved the whole Nile valley 1W and reworked the river to include very pronounced bends all the way onto Sudan. The bends follow the actual course of the river but in an exaggerate way to increase the reach of the river. I also added a land tile (80,45) to expand the delta area.

    I removed a mountain on the Red Sea coast (presumably there to block founding a city that can both be on the Nile and the Red Sea) and changed the whole coast into hills to represent the region’s topography better. I moved the The “bump” in northern Libya/Egypt that is home to Benghazi and Cyrene 1W as well.

    These changes are all meant to increase the area available for cities. I tried to accommodate 5 in Egypt and 3 in Sudan. Some of the cities are shifted a tile from their real location, but I think it’s worth it. For example, Aswan should be 1E, Meroe 1E, and Khartoum 1NE. The move westwards allows for a larger Ethiopian area (see below).

    The changes come at the expense of some of the desert, 1 tile of Libyan coast, and squishing a bit the South Sudan area.

    I haven’t: checked the distribution of floodplains, someone else can do that, but here's how it looks like with the cultural borders updated to the changes:

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0092.JPG


    Horn of Africa
    There’s only one change in the coastline: adding a tile NE of Axum (85,36) to landlock the city. I moved Lake Tana 1W and redesigned the interior to increase the playing area (benefitting from the shift of the Nile). This does not increase the number of cities, but allows more land for Ethiopia to work and better represents the fertile Amhara and Oromo regions of the country. To enlarge the highlands, I converted some plains into grasslands hills (82,35 (ie, Gondar) and 81,34) in the west).

    I also looked in detail at the whole mountain ranges of the Rift Valley, because the mountains seemed too much. From topography maps, it looks like many should rather be hills, so I left only the highest regions as peaks. In Ethiopia, I left a mountain on each side of the Ethiopian Rift, ie, one Southwest of Lake Tana representing the Shoa and Gojam highlands; one southeast representing the Arsi Bale highlands. I also turned the northeastern “funnel” shape of the Rift Valley as plains (ie, the area in front of Yemen). I removed the other mountains in the region (1 from the Somalian coast, 2 from the Turkana Pass) as they didn’t seem to be justified by the topography.

    I also added plains and grasslands to Somalia, I was impressed after seeing pictures of the Jubba river and satellite images of the coastline. Mogadishu itself I made plains, but starting from the next tile all the Swahili coast all the way into southern Tanzania is grassland (and plains immediately after).

    Here's what this looks like, with the cultural borders adjusted to the changes:

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0094.JPG


    Great Lakes and Swahili Coast
    Here I focused on the mountains, the terrain types and the shape of the coastline.

    As I mentioned, Tanzania looks too short vertically compared to real life, so added an extra row to it (ie, I took a 12x11 square starting on 79,25 and shifted that 1S). I left the two islands (79,26 and 86,23) on their original locations. I added a land tile on 84,23.

    As with the Horn of Africa region, I thought the mountains were too many, so I looked at topographic maps of there region. There were 8 mountains around Lake Victoria and Lake Malawi: 4 in Uganda / Kenya; two in Rwanda/Burundi, one on the Tanzanian shore of Lake Victoria, and one on the Tanzanian shore of Lake Malawi.
    - For the mountains in Uganda/Kenya, I left only one representing the Eastern Rift on the Kenyan side. Uganda should be only hills and so should the better part of central Kenya.
    - In Rwanda/Burundi, I left only the westernmost one, which blocks the access to the Congo basin. This allows allows having Kigali or Bujumbura (before all Burundi was a mountain).
    - I removed one of the peaks in Tanzania, left the other one to represent the Robeho and Nguru mountains.

    Based on satellite maps, I added grasslands and rainforest/forest mixes to Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi, as well as southeastern Tanzania/northeastern Mozambique. I added some grasslands to the Swahili coast (as mentioned above). The Tanzanian interior is a bit of grassland/plains mix now.

    For cities, some are shifted from their best locations. Mombasa should be 1SW, Zanzibar/Dar es Salaam should both be a more south, but this configuration allows more of them. I marked all important trading ports and included major interior cities.

    I haven't looked at rivers. Here's what it looks like with the other changes (cultural borders updated to map):

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0095.JPG


    Southern Africa
    The main problems I saw here were the shape of the eastern coastline, which was too plain, and that the region as a whole was too small. I took a 8x6 square starting on 73,16 and shifted that 1E. Then I took a 9x8 square starting on 53,70 and shifter that 1S. I also shifted Madagascar 1E to make room for all of this. 11x8 square on 85,22 moved 1E.

    After the shifts, I reshaped the Mozambique coastline, and realized the region was still too thin, so added more plains tiles, on: 81,15; 80,14; 79,13; 79,12; and 78,11. I think the coast tile north of Cape Town does not look like the real coastline (I’d change it to land), but I’m leaving it as it is because I know it also looked like this in the original map.

    The changes benefit South Africa, which can now have up to 5 cities. Mozambique can hold 4 ports. The changes are also very much in favor of Zimbabwe and Botswana. I placed Gaborone 1tile East of its proper location to give room to Pretoria/Joburg. Western Botswana is rather empty so the change is not too bad.

    I haven’t: looked at the terrain, resources, relief, forests, rivers, etc. I indent to do all all of these, except the resources, over the weekend. Here's what it looks like for now:

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0096.JPG


    For comparison
    Here's how Africa looks zoomed out, so you can see how the new shape looks like in relation to the rest of the continent.

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0091.JPG


    Additional changes in Western and Central Africa coming later. Need to sleep now!
     
  11. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

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    I impowered myself to make a suggestion about Ontario. I really don't understand the reasoning of having Toronto be so far West, except to make room for the 3 other cities. This is all well and good but the Ottawa River is crazy long and distorts the shape of Ontario/Quebec. So this is my solution. In red, my ideal city placement (I don't mind that the cities are one tile off if it means the physical geography is correct), In blue, the most accurate placement (minus Ottawa), in yellow the Ottawa and Toronto are in the right place compromise.

    I love dealing in minutiae.

    Spoiler :

    Ontario.png
     
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  12. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

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    Finally someone giving some much needed love to Africa! Keep up the good work. I hope you give West Africa a bit more space, it appears virtually unchanged from the original map and Central Africa in fact appears worse to me but that might be a superficial judgement.
     
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  13. Publicola

    Publicola Chieftain

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    @Leoreth, do you have any plans to add a 'semidesert' or 'semi-arid' terrain to DOC with the new map? I was thinking about the terrain for Namibia (inspired by ozqar's suggestions above), and realized that the 'desert' in that area is actually semi-arid climate more akin to the Mongolian steppes or the American SW. Here's a map with all the areas of the world classified as 'semi-arid' -- it would include Namibia, Somalia, parts of Mali, parts of the North Africa and southern Spain, parts of the Middle East, some of the Indus River Valley, much of Central Asia, most of Mongolia, parts of the American Southwest, parts of Argentinian highlands, and a fair bit of Australia.

    I'm envisioning semi-arid as a midstep between 'plains' and 'desert'.

    Plains give 1 :food: 1 :hammers: and you can build most improvements on them; improvements take normal number of turns
    Deserts give 1 :hammers: and you can build a few improvements on them (e.g., no farms); improvements take more turns to complete

    Semi-arid might give 1 :hammers: as a baseline, but +1 :food: is adjacent to a river, or +1 :food: with a bonus resource like wheat or cattle. Or just leave it as 1 :hammers: baseline but let improvements be completed at the normal rate for plains, and allow all improvements (including farms) to be built there. (Perhaps allow 'pasture' improvements not connected to horse/cattle/other resources?)

    I'm pretty sure RFCE uses a 'semidesert' terrain tile, and I know Cavemen2Cosmos has a number of different terrain types if you're looking to visually distinguish them. 'Semi-arid' is usually treated as equivalent of steppe climates, so you might instead try adding 'shrubs' or 'grass' or 'savanna' features from C2C as a visual marker.
     
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  14. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    Not really sure why you put the peak there. I suggest moving the gold 1 tile north. Also, the sugar in Luzon should be 1E; the current spot with the river is supposed to be Manila.
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I had, with some of the same considerations, and even separate Steppe and Semidesert biomes (the former for Central Asia and Eastern Europe). I decided against it because I didn't really have a clue where to put them, which made me question their need. But I could include them into the branch for now so you guys can make a suggestion for it and I can decide again.

    I have also read the great Africa suggestions, but I want to take more time to study them before I will give a reaction.
     
  16. ozqar

    ozqar Chieftain

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    Looking forward to your thoughts! Keep in mind that I still have to work out the other half of Africa and some of the adjustments I made require some changes on the other side. For example, adjusting the Angola / Namibia coastline to the updated Mozambique coastline. I kept the map so I can address feedback as I continue with the new parts.

    A semidesert terrain would be really nice to give more variation to the continent, if you make it available, I can already think of plenty of places to use it. I was already wishing I had it last night when I was doing all of that. I'd give deserts a base yield of 0 :hammers: but allow some improvements (like mines) and semideserts 1 :hammers: and allow some more improvements, like pastures (goats, would be sheep here), and farms when there is water available. Steppes should probably work the same as semideserts and functionally be only a graphical variation.


    EDIT: Thinking back on that, that would make semideserts simply replace deserts now. Maybe they can have 0.5 :food:? Just thinking out loud, not sure what's a good solution. In any case, if you make the terrain available, I can make sure to put it in the map in the right places.

    Another idea could be have another forest-type of feature representing savanna-type, scarcely forested woodlands. That can help to introduce more variety to the map.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    The way I see it:
    - Desert: same yields as before, does not allow roads, passage blocked for most units unless culturally covered
    - Semidesert: 1 :hammers:, +1 :food: next to rivers, no extra commerce next to rivers, all improvements allowed
    - Steppe: same yields as Semidesert, mostly for graphical variation, or some special rules (faster movement for light cavalry)

    If movement is blocked in deserts we can simulate the geographical isolation of sub Saharan Africa much better. Semidesert could be used to establish connections where geographically necessary. For example, it might make sense to insert a small patch of desert between Cyrenaica and Tripolitania to disconnect Egypt from the Maghreb.
     
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  18. ozqar

    ozqar Chieftain

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    I like the idea. To block movement on (true) desert, though, we could have a sand dune feature. Normally units are able to cross deserts easily so long as they carry water, but it's more complicated when there are sand dunes. Desert without the sand dunes could still have slowed down movement.

    Building on the light cavalry idea of faster movement for steppe, camel-based units (maybe camelry should be a category?) should have faster movement on desert and semidesert.
     
  19. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I prefer Mindanao without the extra tile. I think the current shape resembles the shape of it IRL better.

    Meroë is really of in that location. It should be 1S3E. Personally, I don't mind it that much if cities are 1 tile of the actual place for gameplay reasons, but this is too much IMO.

    I personally would go for this canonical city placement:
    Alexandria, Cairo, Luxor OR Aswan (Similar to Shanghai/Hangzhou) and Meroë. And with Meroë 1S3E of your suggestion. It's sad that Khartoum cannot be presented in that case, but we don't need to place every historical city.
    EDIT: Looking more closely at Egypt, the tile you placed Luxor on is actually the location of Aswan. Luxor would be 1N of that. (could be represented in the CNM). The tile you placed Aswan would be Abu Simbel.

    I really think that Aksum should not be landlocked. It is indeed not coastal, but it is really close to the coast. I think this situation is really similar to Rome, London, Hanoi and many other cities. Not coastal geographically, but coastal in terms of gameplay. It also makes the coastline slightly more accurate IMO.

    Furthermore, the Kingdom of Axum should have a sea access, given the quote below. Making Axum coastal by removing the land tile you added is IMO the best solution gameplay wise.

    I would personally place Kilwa 1S1E, on the new land tile.

    I don't think that all of your city suggestion should be the canonical cities. (More isn't always better. I this case, it isn't IMO) I would say the following cities are the canonical cities of the Swahili Coast: Mogadishu, Mombasa, Zanzibar, Kilwa, Mozambique Quelimane, and Sofala. This also allows Mombasa and Zanzibar to be placed on the accurate tile and make the area less crowded. (I think it is too crowded in your suggestion)

    I think he placed the gold there to avoid my suggestion of placing Butuan being on top of it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  20. Alexius08

    Alexius08 Chieftain

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    Currently, only Arabia's UU is the only camel-based unit. We already have the desert adaptation promotion for increasing movement speed on that terrain.
     

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