[Development] Map Suggestions

[TJDowling]

It's unsuitable to add a civ which is not existed in history. If you feel it necessary to add a Yue civ, it could be like Polynesia and Harappa, only spawn when human players use it.

Since 221BC, Guangdong had been controlled by Chinese dynasties.

When are you proposing to have these non-existent marshes and rainforests disappear?

You'd rather ahistorically make the terrain in southern China virtually uninhabitable in the ancient era than to add a civ representing the people who actually historically lived in that region...

 

[soul-breathing]

When are you proposing to have these non-existent marshes and rainforests disappear?

You'd rather ahistorically make the terrain in southern China virtually uninhabitable in the ancient era than to add a civ representing the people who actually historically lived in that region...

The regions south of the Yangtze River were indeed uninhabitable in the ancient era. For a long time, these regions had far less population than the North part of China (about 1:5 in Han Dynasty, because of infectious diseases and bad climate). After the North and South Dynasties(500ad), these regions were developing. In Song Dynasty(1000ad and later), the lower reaches of the Yangtze River became a important economic center of China. But those regions had belong to China since 221bc.

Since infectious diseases and bad climate are hard to display in the game, I prefer to add some marshes in those regions, and make some resources appear later.

 

[TJDowling]

The regions south of the Yangtze River were indeed uninhabitable in the ancient era. For a long time, these regions had far less population than the North part of China (about 1:5 in Han Dynasty, because of infectious diseases and bad climate). After the North and South Dynasties(500ad), these regions were developing. In Song Dynasty(1000ad and later), the lower reaches of the Yangtze River became a important economic center of China. But those regions had belong to China since 221bc.

Since infectious diseases and bad climate are hard to display in the game, I prefer to add some marshes in those regions, and make some resources appear later.

Uhh... the climate just spontaneously changed after 500AD?

 

[soul-breathing]

Uhh... the climate just spontaneously changed after 500AD?

At most it's because of the war in North China, Nomads from North steppe invaded Midland of China, and people from North China immigranted to South, that made the population of South China grows.

It's all recorded in history materials. I mentioned 500ad, just for those who not familiar with Chinese history to understand it, not means there was a climate change in 500ad.

There're also precedents in recent doc game to change the terrain in some year. For example, when European arrive South America, the Andes Mountain would open passes in both north and south; and there also flood plains disappear in Harappa's core. According to those, it's also reasonable to make some marshes disappear in China.

 

[TJDowling]

At most it's because of the war in North China, Nomads from North steppe invaded Midland of China, and people from North China immigranted to South, that made the population of South China grows.

It's all recorded in history materials. I mentioned 500ad, just for those who not familiar with Chinese history to understand it, not means there was a climate change in 500ad.

There're also precedents in recent doc game to change the terrain in some year. For example, when European arrive South America, the Andes Mountain would open passes in both north and south; and there also flood plains disappear in Harappa's core. According to those, it's also reasonable to make some marshes disappear in China.

Yeah, terrain can change I don't know that this change is necessary though even without a Yue State.

The fact is the Chu and then Han Dynasty had to conquer the land from the Yue State, the Nanyue, the Minyue and the Vietnamese, pre-existing kingdoms in the region that existed until 111BCE. Presumably after conquest it took time to adapt to the new climate and build the infrastructure necessary to assimilate and supplant the local population. Carthage ceased to exist in 146BCE, that does not mean that Carthage was not a civilization. Your assertion that the territory was uninhabitable simply because it was less populated is ahistorical at best.

Even throwing in some independent cities that the North has to conquer is a better solution than making up terrain.

 

[soul-breathing]

If so, simply add vietnamese civ is enough. Just as which in Merijn's modmod

This region(Guangdong Guangxi and Fujian) had incorporate in China in Qin Dynasty in 221bc(Nanhai County). Before this, there're just primitive tribe there. So I said it was not existed as a civ. If you want to add Vietnam, it's another topic.

 

[TJDowling]

If so, simply add vietnamese civ is enough. Just as which in Merijn's modmod

This region(Guangdong Guangxi and Fujian) had incorporate in China in Qin Dynasty in 221bc(Nanhai County). Before this, there're just primitive tribe there. So I said it was not existed as a civ. If you want to add Vietnam, it's another topic.

Except merijn's Vietnam spawns in 257BCE, which means they will be conquered by China shortly afterward under your strict timeline of the inevitable march of Chinese civilization so why bother? I think we have political differences as to what constitutes a civilization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_(state)

"The famous Yue King Goujian destroyed and annexed Wu in 473 BCE. Competing against the fewer, more powerful Warring States, Yue did not fare as well. During the reign of Wujiang (無彊), six generations after Goujian, Yue was destroyed and annexed by Chu in 334 BCE.

During its existence, Yue was famous for the quality of its metalworking, particularly its swords. Examples include the extremely well-preserved Swords of Goujian and Zhougou.

The Yue state appears to have been a largely indigenous political development in the lower Yangtze. This region corresponds with that of the old corded-ware Neolithic, and it continued to be one that shared a number of practices, such as tooth extraction, pile building, and cliff burial, practices that continued until relatively recent times in places such as Taiwan. Austronesian speakers also still lived in the region down to its conquest and sinification beginning about 240 B.C.[1]

What set the Yue apart from other Sinitic states of the time was their possession of a navy.[2] Yue culture was distinct from the Chinese in its practice of naming boats and swords.[3] A Chinese text described the Yue as a people who used boats as their carriages and oars as their horses.

After the fall of Yue, the ruling family moved south to what is now northern Fujian and set up the Minyue kingdom. This successor state lasted until around 150 BC, when it miscalculated an alliance with the Han dynasty."

Just primitive tribes with quality metal-working and a navy, smh. The nice thing about American exceptionalism is that they don't have 1000s of years of history to rewrite for their own benefit.

 

[soul-breathing]

Er...You mean Yue State in Zhejiang? It's a misunderstanding. I think you mean the state in Guangdong and Guangxi at beginning.

But, the Yue State is a Duchy state of the Kingdom of Zhou, if it is added as a civ, then why not Wu State, Chu state etc.? There're tens of Duchy states in China at Zhou Dynasty. They are all same as Yue State.

 

[TJDowling]

Er...You mean Yue State in Zhejiang? It's a misunderstanding. I think you mean the state in Guangdong and Guangxi at beginning.

But, the Yue State is a Duchy state of the Kingdom of Zhou, if it is added as a civ, then why not Wu State, Chu state etc.? There're tens of Duchy states in China at Zhou Dynasty. They are all same as Yue State.

Look as far as I can tell there is at least continuity between the Yue State and the Minyue state. The Nanyue then conquered the Minyue. While the Yue State and the Nanyue of Guangdong are not the same they are both indigenous to the Yangtze river no matter who their masters were. You made the argument that south of the Yangtze was primitive, uncivilized and uninhabited. Without speaking of the Nanyue or their predecessors, at the very least the Yue State had a navy and metalworking which is hardly primitive.

The page I cited also refers to the Wu as Yue so unless everyone was coincidentally called Yue I think there may have been a connection.

 

[Leoreth]

It looks like you're talking past each other. Historically Han China conquered the South much earlier (700 years according to soul-breathing's account) than when it became of economic relevance. So putting in military resistance in the south in a historically accurate manner (which can also be independents and barbarians, so the discussion about whether the Yue should be a civ isn't really relevant to the problem) will still allow China to develop the south ahistorically early, so there needs to be something else. The actual historical reason is demographic shifts and migration, which cannot be represented well in the game. Removing resources and spawning them later is a good solution to this problem, and if necessary even jungles and marshes.

 

[hnrysml]

It seems like the best option would just be to have reasonably well-defended indie cities that can either be conquered or flipped by culture

 

[TJDowling]

It seems like the best option would just be to have reasonably well-defended indie cities that can either be conquered or flipped by culture

I think it also remedies the problem of China being OP without risking total collapse. Yes in some interpretations it is ahistorical to expect any independents to remain past 111BC when the Chinese conquered the Nanyue. In other interpretations those regions were client states or almost akin to vassals of the Chinese. They were on the fringes of the Empire until much later. After cultural and demographic shifts they became quite thoroughly sinisized and more integrated with Greater China.

 

[JHLee]

Southern China was actually full of jungle and rainforests in the ancient times.
Why do you think there are ancient chinese hyeroglyphs and (very accurate) artworks of elephants, leopards and rhinos?
They actually lived in China long ago, there are even records that armor made of rhino hide were used by ancient chinese states.
Even the Xia dynasty, by the Yellow River, was surrounded by dense, thick rainforests.
The change of global climate and migration/development of the Chinese people changed the landscape of China.
First the more populated Northen areas, then the south of the Yangtze.
The Wu Dynasty in early 3AD (not the Wu of the Warring States period which was constantly at war with Yue, but the one famous for the Romance of Three Kingdoms) was very eager in developing those lands,
And by the time of Siu and Tang, it had become a major economic powerhouse.

Long story short, it is historically accurate to put jungles/rainforests/marshes or other time-conditional map changes in Southern China to avoid a much-too-early expansion there.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, so I'm looking forward to soul-breathing's proposal on this.

 

[Finbros]

Northwest Russia.

Original:

While landmass is ok, rivers and lakes definitely need fixing.

A. Kola Peninsula is flat, though there should be some hills and peaks representing Khibiny Mts.
B. Solovetsky Islands should be 1N (or even 1NE, to be covered with culture from Arkhangelsk), not directly in Onega Bay, I think.
C. There is no such river, so it should be removed (probably it represented Belomorkanal?)
D. Ladoga lake is ok, but Onega lake should be 1N, and so Svir river should be moved as well.
E. Neva river, gold and dam hammers for St.Petersburg.
F. After moving of Svir Volkhov can be moved to a more correct position.
G. Something really strange near the Upper Volga. Representation of Volga–Baltic Canal?
H. Onega river is too long.
I. Dvina and Sukhona looks good, but Vychegda should be longer.

So, after all of this:

Also, what with Moorlands and Taiga? Can I use them or their properties aren't approved enough?
I'm delighted with them, and think that they can improve Northern Eurasia greatly, replacing inaccurate Tundra terrain.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks for the suggestions. I had suspected there were some errors in northern Russia considering that area has been moved around a bit, not always with concern for accuracy.

And yes, Moorland and Taiga were added exactly to improve these regions. Their properties may change but you're encouraged to make proposals for where they would be on the map already.

 

[ngazi]

Well I suggested having less tiles in southern China mainly to differentiate the city management there. The north would be more based on growing onto tiles, while the south would have less tiles and depend more on food, resource tiles, and specialists. It is a gameplay feature based in history and reality. Also the terrain in southern China has been more difficult compared to northern China until the advent of high speed rail in only the past few years. This has created some storied fortress cities in southern China, and at other times fragmentation, which plays into why I said the major cities should be broken up by peaks instead of hills.

As for the south being part of northern states and then only become more populated later, I don't see why this has to be forced in the game. Since China is isolated it will always take time to expand in any direction. You can settle a bunch of cities before you improve the tiles and then these cities will naturally stagnate. Hasn't the resources in southern China also had higher tech requirements as well?

As for Minyue, Nanyue, and Vietnam. There is a vast amount of time and space separating them. They share a character, but they are not related at all. There are quite a number of Chinese characters that get repeated for unrelated polities.

 

[Finbros]

Ok, propositions about terrain, cities and resources.

Kola peninsula and Karelia.

Most of Karelia converted into moorlands+taiga; seashore - to moorlands+forest. (moorlands in green border)
Most canonical city is Murmansk, but though first Russian settlements here was found at late MA, region was underpopulated and underdeveloped before XX century.
Also it is possible to found Kem' in Karelia, small but old trade post in White Sea.
Another city spots blocked by taiga.

Added hill with stone (or, probably, marble) in St.Peterburg BFC, to represent Karelian quarries (Ruskeala and other sources of raw materials for St.Peterburg).
Added whales, to represent Svalbard. (?)
Added iron (after 1900-1930 AD), representing discovered nickel deposits in Pechenga/Petsamo region.
Added crabs (after 1930-1950 AD), representing introduction of Kamchatka crabs into Barents Sea by USSR in XX century.

Russian North region.

Same, most of region covered by moorland+taiga, and river banks - by moorland and forest.
Tundra starts in seashores of Barents Sea 2N and 2E of Arkhangelsk. Two tiles 1N and 1E of Onega Lake covered by plains instead of moorlans - bonus hammer represents local industry (small deposits of bauxite and cement)

Added cows 1E of Kholmogory, representing local breeds of cattles and compensating loss of food after converting grasslands to moorlands and taiga.
Added salt between Kholmogory and Ustyug (here, or 1E/S/SE) - salt of Sol'vychegodsk was source of income for Siberia colonization at the times of Russian Tsardom.
I added gem mine near the Arkhangelsk, but really don't know about it. Though Lomonosov diamond mine is largest in Europe, it was discovered relatively recently (at 1980s) and such late spawn is useless, but presence at map since 3000 BC is tasteless too.

Nenetsia+Komi.

Mostly unprofitable region, known mostly by oil.
Towns marked as checkpoints, don't think that AI should necessary found them.

Added oil for oil/gas deposites in the Nenetskiy District.
Added deers to represent indigenous tribes.
Gems here makes me confused since vanilla RFC, because there are no much sources of precious gems at the North Ural. Removed, placed coal (mines of Vorkuta).

 

[BarbarianX]

Ok, propositions about terrain, cities and resources.

Kola peninsula and Karelia.

View attachment 498191

Most of Karelia converted into moorlands+taiga; seashore - to moorlands+forest. (moorlands in green border)
Most canonical city is Murmansk, but though first Russian settlements here was found at late MA, region was underpopulated and underdeveloped before XX century.
Also it is possible to found Kem' in Karelia, small but old trade post in White Sea.
Another city spots blocked by taiga.

Added hill with stone (or, probably, marble) in St.Peterburg BFC, to represent Karelian quarries (Ruskeala and other sources of raw materials for St.Peterburg).
Added whales, to represent Svalbard. (?)
Added iron (after 1900-1930 AD), representing discovered nickel deposits in Pechenga/Petsamo region.
Added crabs (after 1930-1950 AD), representing introduction of Kamchatka crabs into Barents Sea by USSR in XX century.

Russian North region.

View attachment 498192

Same, most of region covered by moorland+taiga, and river banks - by moorland and forest.
Tundra starts in seashores of Barents Sea 2N and 2E of Arkhangelsk. Two tiles 1N and 1E of Onega Lake covered by plains instead of moorlans - bonus hammer represents local industry (small deposits of bauxite and cement)

Added cows 1E of Kholmogory, representing local breeds of cattles and compensating loss of food after converting grasslands to moorlands and taiga.
Added salt between Kholmogory and Ustyug (here, or 1E/S/SE) - salt of Sol'vychegodsk was source of income for Siberia colonization at the times of Russian Tsardom.
I added gem mine near the Arkhangelsk, but really don't know about it. Though Lomonosov diamond mine is largest in Europe, it was discovered relatively recently (at 1980s) and such late spawn is useless, but presence at map since 3000 BC is tasteless too.

Nenetsia+Komi.



Mostly unprofitable region, known mostly by oil.
Towns marked as checkpoints, don't think that AI should necessary found them.

Added oil for oil/gas deposites in the Nenetskiy District.
Added deers to represent indigenous tribes.
Gems here makes me confused since vanilla RFC, because there are no much sources of precious gems at the North Ural. Removed, placed coal (mines of Vorkuta).

You didn't post the last screenshot.

 

[Finbros]

Fixed.

More of Motheя Russia. Now - Central Russia and neighbouring parts.

Big chunk of land with a few reference points, so I deformed scenario map of region for resembling real geographical map.
Key points - St.Petersburg and Finnish Bay, Black Sea with Istanbul, Azov Sea with Crimea, Northern Caspian coast, Volga Delta and Urals (without reduced NE).

Colorful:

Grid only

So, let's go.

Firstly, rivers and lakes.

Sketch, featuring: Dniepr with Desna, Don, Volga with Moscow River, Oka, Kama and oversized Samara Bend, removed artifical Rybinsk Reservoir, Vychegda, even more stretched into nowheres and visual glitches instead of Agidel and Ural =(.

On the map:

Main area. I lost save with moorlands and taiga, so Russian North is still snowy.

South-east (Agidel', Ural, and approximate position of Kuban and Terek)

Terrain, features, resources and town names map - some days later.
Corrections? I don't think much about gameplay and balance, so probably missed something.