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[Development] Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 26, 2018.

  1. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    I understand that you are new in this forum, but triple posting is really frowned upon. It would be best to remove two of your posts before the moderator here sees it.
     
  2. BaneFire

    BaneFire Warlord

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    Currently oil resource provides +1 unhappiness to a city, which I think applies even if the resource is unworked? If I'm wrong, please ignore the following.

    I would do a similar thing with whales, where you can get the commerce and food bonus without actually working the tile. This means whales could still be further out than cities can work beyond their fat cross, but late game culture and tech means you can do whaling. This means we could have whales in the Pacific near Japan, in the North Sea near Norway/Scotland/Iceland, and potentially other places.
    Not a major change but I think it would make whales a bit more interesting/unique a resource.
     
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  3. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    Isn't this a corporation thing? Like, if the Oil Industry corporation is present in the city, it produces some degree of unhappiness?
     
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  4. BaneFire

    BaneFire Warlord

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    oil.png
    No, when you build the Well.
     
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Oh, unhealthiness. It only applies when working the improvement.
     
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  6. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    Spoiler China :
    china.jpg

    -Two aluminiums added to China, in areas with major bauxite deposits (https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ording-to-tonnages-of-recoverable-alumina.png). China is a huge aluminium producer with significant (albeit fastly dwindling) bauxite reserves.

    -Possibly turquoise in eastern Tibet (https://www.gildingartsstudio.com/articles/turquoise.htm). Whether Tibet actually has turquoise deposits seems to be oddly controversial though, with other sources being more skeptical. Alternatively, one could place one further east (say 1E of highlighted deer in central China). Western Hubei definitely has turquoise, and Chinese turquoise mining dates back to ancient times. But the Chinese were historically not very interested in it (preferring jade, of course).

    -Silver near China–Burma border. Silver mining in Yunnan seems to have been important since ancient times (http://www.gutenberg-e.org/yang/chapter6.html), and there have been significant historical mines on the Burmese side as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namtu).

    -Salt flat representing the Qarhan Playa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarhan_Playa). One could put salt or rare earths on it, but not sure if any reasonable city is supposed to reach it.

    -Not on the screenshot and obviously very subjective, but IMO western Tibet would look better as semidesert rather than tundra.
    Spoiler Egypt :
    egypt.jpg

    Two suggested resources for Egypt, which seem important enough to deserve at least some consideration (obviously, it's already loaded with important resources).

    -Emeralds in Eastern Desert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald#Emerald_mines).

    -Opium near Thebes which was historically quite famous for it (the opiate Thebaine even got its name from there).

    Finally, some suggestions without screenshots:

    -Silver somewhere around Silesia. Not really sure which exact tile would be best. Silver mining has long history in the area (e.g. at Tarnowskie Gory), and also in Kuttenberg/Kutná Hora nearby. Nowadays, Polkowice is very prolific in silver mining (Rudna, Polkowice-Sieroszowice and Lubin mines all among the most productive in the world).

    -Uranium instead of iron on Greenland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvanefjeld). The iron isn't inaccurate but feels unhistorical IMO. The Viking colonizers couldn't really work with iron there due to the lack of trees to make charcoal from, and archeological sites show signs of severe iron shortage.

    -Sapphires on Sri Lanka. Aside from possibly lack of space there is really no reason not to have it. The island was widely renowned for its gemstones already in ancient times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gems_of_Sri_Lanka), and many of the most iconic sapphires are from there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapphire#Notable_sapphires).
     
  7. Dragonxander PR

    Dragonxander PR Emperor of the Drakons

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    Hi! I've been looking at the Caribbean, and I will say that the area looks promising so far.

    • The change from plains to savanna is extremely welcome! The reality is that most of the Caribbean islands have significant topography and thus get a lot of humidity, even if they cast (fairly narrow) rain shadows towards the Caribbean Sea itself. Savannas do represent a highly seasonal (wet/dry) tropical climate, and the term savanna is actually originated in the Caribbean, used to describe woody grasslands. The land food production, while significant, isn't quite enough to turn the region into an overall agricultural powerhouse, especially due to the widespread presence of oxisols and laterites (the reddish clay soils rich in iron and aluminium minerals) which require soil conditioning with lime and fertilizers (these respond well to them).

    • From the resource view, sugar being the most common plantation resource is historically accurate, but I would like to see some way to add more coffee (currently only in Puerto Rico, would add it either on Jamaica or the Dominican Republic) and tobacco (maybe have 2 instead of 1 in Cuba, due to its historically large output). Chocolate / cacao is more niche, so having one resource seems appropriate.
    Spoiler Caribbean resources idea by Tab911 :







    I have some resource recommendations I'd like to give out and would like to have considered:

    • In terms of fishing, the region has a high variety of species with great economic importance to local communities, even if they are not fished at an industrial scale (dominated by artisanal rather than industrial fishing). Major species include lobsters, carrucho (queen conch, a large snail), crabs, demersal and pelagic fish. Keep in mind that, during the Pre-Columbian era, the Greater Antilles were already major population centers, even if societies inhabiting them (Taíno, Carib, Ciboney) were still chiefdoms rather than fully-fledged civilizations. Moreso, the modern Greater Antilles are very large population centers. In our modern times, out of the 44 million inhabitants of the Caribbean islands, 11 million are in Cuba, 11 million in Haiti, 10 million in Dominican Republic, 3 million in Puerto Rico (historically peaking at just shy of 4 million), and almost 3 million in Jamaica. These islands should be able to sustain high populations and have enough resources to justify competition among the European colonial powers, just like they did historically when France, Netherlands and Great Britain wrestled control of the various Spanish island colonies. I would like to see a more balanced assortment of seafood, and so far I've been noticing a scarcity of crustaceans (crab resource), which in particular are significant for Jamaica and Puerto Rico. Adding one crab resource reachable from each would balance out the proportionally higher presence of clams and fish sources.

    • Whales have a strong seasonal presence in the Caribbean, in particular for their mating season in winter. They tend to stay in the Atlantic side, with one of their chief areas being north of the Mona Passage (between Hispaniola and Puerto Rico) and the Lesser Antilles trench (ocean tiles east of the Leeward Antilles). Maybe including one whale 1N of the clams between Hispaniola and Puerto Rico would be a way to represent this (may justify removing the clam if the area is becoming too resource-dense). The other place where these should be included is east of the Leeward Antilles, as that's where the greatest activity levels happened historically and even to this day. Here's a research article talking about the history of whaling around the Caribbean, which appears to be significant throughout the colonial period, and even practiced to a smaller extent by the Pre-Columbian inhabitants.

    • In terms of mineral resources, there are three which we might consider, but likely only up to two of them should be included: gold, aluminium/bauxite and ferrous metals (iron/nickel/cobalt). The Dominican Republic currently has one of the largest gold mines in terms of output, Pueblo Viejo, located at the very center of the country. It is also worth noting that, during the early European colonization, the Spaniards were very interested in the gold of the Greater Antilles, which in part funded the conquest expeditions against the Aztecs and the Incas. Bauxite is also a major mineral resource, chiefly mined in Jamaica (6th biggest producer worldwide, historically reaching up to 3rd place) and the Dominican Republic, and processed in the US Virgin Islands and the United States proper. The third resource are ferrous metals, including nickel, iron and cobalt, which are one of the main mineral products of Cuba in the Moa mine on the far east side. By value, nickel is the most important resource, but by volume, the laterite soils include a very high amount of iron (around 35%). For the sake of historical accuracy, this resource should spawn later in the game, likely in the 1800s to entice the United States and contribute to a possible Spanish-American war trigger, and support a lasting communist presence from the days when the USSR supported Cuba against the United States. More data on mineral production in the Caribbean, published by the US Geological Survey, can be found here.


    I believe the resource changes would be most easy to apply, although I do have a case to at the very least enlarge Cuba and Hispaniola as these, by far, are the most populous and sizable islands of the region. When comparing them against the top 100 largest islands, these are the ranks we get for each:
    • Cuba: 17th largest at 105,000 sq km. Islands similar in size include Iceland, Luzon (Philippines), Mindanao (Philippines) and the north island of New Zealand.

    • Hispaniola: 22nd largest at 74,000 sq km. Islands similar in size include Hokkaido, Sri Lanka, Tasmania and Ireland. It is also significantly larger than Kyushu (Japan), Taiwan, Hainan (China) and Vancouver Island (Canada). It is also worth noting that Hispaniola currently fits two sizable countries of the Caribbean, which can add to its strategic importance in-game.

    • Jamaica: 70th largest at 11,200 sq km. Islands similar in size include the big island of Hawaii, Viti Levu (largest island of Fiji).

    • Puerto Rico: 81st largest at 9,100 sq km. Islands similar in size include Corsica (France), Crete (Greece), Cyprus and Chiloé (Chile).

    Spoiler Caribbean map as shown in the New Map Overview thread :


    EDIT: added some missing sources
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Thank you for the contribution! Having detailed input from someone who actually lives in a less represented region of the world is always very helpful.
     
  9. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    Some ideas on India. Since changes are now being made there, I figured it is high time to post this (started working on it ages ago).
    Spoiler Deccan :
    frsindia.jpg

    First the Deccan plateu with surroundings. Slight adjustments of terrain towards the very northwest of the screenshot: Kathiawar peninsula changed to savanna and tile NE of it changed to forest-less plains. It's mostly a pretty arid area IRL.

    The southern tip of the peninsula seems very food poor (considering Kerala and Tamil Nadu together have more than 100 million inhabitants), hence the suggested floodplain on the (very fertile) Cauvery delta.

    Resources:

    -Rice instead of cows in the south might be an alternative to the suggested floodplain. More seafood in the area can probably be considered as well.
    -Diamonds added at Kollur mine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollur_Mine), located in India's most important historical diamond mining area. Since the two gems north of here also correspond fairly well to historical diamond mining areas (Wairagarh and Panna, respectively), they could be changed to diamonds. It would make historical sense with multiple since India had a virtual monopoly on diamond production from antiquity until deposits were discovered in Brazil around 1730.
    -Millet in Deccan interior, staple crop there since ancient times.
    -Cotton in northwestern Deccan, a leading cotton cultivation area in India. Mumbai was a major cotton textile center historically.
    -Oil representing the Mumbai High Field, India's most important oil field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_High_Field). Oil is a clear relative weakness of India's but I think one resource is justified.
    -Tobacco spawn in Godavari-Krishna delta. Tobacco has been a fairly major cash crop in India since the Mughal era.
    Spoiler Northern India :
    frnindia.jpg

    Northern India. Didn't change any terrain here, except the mentioned plains NE of Kathiawar. One could add more forests to the Ganges Plain, which was pretty much a jungle in 3000 BC AFAIK.

    Resources:

    -Dyes moved to Gujarat/Rajasthan area, which seems to be the most traditional indigo cultivation area of India (together with the Indus Valley, where Sehwan was a historical center). The marked spots are close to the most important Mughal-era production centers - Bayana and Sarkhej.
    -Salt restored in Punjab, representing the "Salt Range" and Khewra salt mine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khewra_Salt_Mine). For optimal accuracy it should probably be placed a bit further north. Maybe not really needed, but its historical importance seems to be quite high.
    -Sugar arbitrarily placed in the Ganges plain, which should probably have at least one.
    -Opium spawn in Malwa and another somewhat close to Patna/Ghazipur, important historical opium cultivation areas.
    -Silk in the Bengal. Dhaka was very prolific in sericulture and textiles generally during the Mughal era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslin_trade_in_Bengal#Mughal_era). Could be a spawn (15th century or later), although wild silk production in the area seems to be very ancient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assam_silk).
    -Aluminium in Odisha, which has huge bauxite deposits and smelts lots of aluminium.
    -Potato spawn in the Bengal. Not really a staple, but heavily cultivated as a winter crop in the area (and in Northern India in general).
     
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  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Great, thanks! In particular, this reminded me that I already wanted to put Silk in Bengal, I think I found some mentions of it being introduced in the 8th-10th century.
     
  11. Visard

    Visard Warlord

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    I think there should river in South Finland eastside of Helsingfors/Helsinki, like in the current map.
    It would give realistic defence bonus for the city agains invasion from Russia.
    In reality there are three significant rivers east of Helsinki and Kymi River is the longest out of those.

    Kymi begins at Lake Päijänne. The length of the river is 204 kilometres but its drainage basin extends to almost 600 kilometres. Kymi is a major source of hydroelectricity and the towns along the river are major centres of the pulp and paper industry. Formerly the river was extensively used for timber rafting. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kymi_(river))

    Kymi River.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  12. MrFeline

    MrFeline Chieftain

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    Currently, Central Africa isn't able to support a city of above middling size. This works for most of history, but coming into the modern era, the landscape is unable to support a fairly important regional city: Kinshasa. For reference, Kinshasa metro has a population of more than 13 million people. That's comporable to the metro populations of London (14 million), Los Angeles (13 million), and Rio de Janeiro (12 million), and decently bigger than Madrid (6 million), Chicago (9 million), and Kuala Lumpur (7 million).

    For the region to be able to support a city of Kinshasa's size, a lot of the marsh would need to move, or at least change as time goes on. Thoughts?
     
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  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Most of the modern era isn't accurately represented by the map, and probably impossible to be accurately represented by Civ4 rules.
     
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  14. MrFeline

    MrFeline Chieftain

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    That's fair. I would love to see some way for that land to be used - even if just with a hard to reach goal, like how Delta Works and Burj Khalifa turn certain cities into powerhouses.
     
  15. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Well, as far as population goes to me it's really a matter of a lack of resource spawns in the modern era. To somewhat accurately represent the population of places like Africa, without substantially expanding the map of Africa we'd have to implement late-game agricultural resource spawns. I hope this happens when we get the new map. That said, geographically it will remain difficult to represent all major cities of modern Africa as the map is based on a projection which places Africa at a disadvantage and even then it's even more compressed due to inflation of Europe. I just realized Cote D'Ivoire is about the same size as Germany in real life. Wow! But on our current map it would encompass about 4 tiles or so. Anyway, I made a lot of suggestions for resource placement and spawning resources in Africa a while back. If you'd like to contribute more I encourage you to do so... I think that's the best bet for getting some kind of accurate representation of areas that become more significant in the late/post-colonial era.
     
  16. Dragonxander PR

    Dragonxander PR Emperor of the Drakons

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    The good thing about Africa is that the continent remains overwhelmingly rural and its urbanization in the second half of the 20th century, and start of the 21st, has overwhelmingly occurred in a few very large cities. Gradually adding food resources around the major city sites would be a good way to represent this growth.

    Another way to reflect this would be to make farms in savanna and semidesert terrains respond more readily to modern agriculture methods than their counterparts in grassland, plains, desert floodplains and tundra. With the judicious use of fertilizers, soil conditioning and agricultural biotechnology, savannas could be made into far more productive agricultural soils and making them comparable to grasslands. This would essentially allow tropical terrains to remain a hindrance to population growth and agricultural development for most of history but making them equally capable of supporting huge agricultural yields starting around the Industrial Era, coinciding with the Scramble for Africa. Say, if a technology from this era gives +1:food: to grassland/plains/desert floodplain farms, it could instead give a +2:food: yield to savanna/semidesert terrains; or alternatively give a food yield enhancement to tropical plantation resources. This would make these soils more distinct from tundra, which also has a 1:food: yield.
     
  17. BaneFire

    BaneFire Warlord

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    I like the technology suggestion, but the prior discussions had about an eventual overhaul of trade routes are probably most important. Now that I think about it though I'm actually completely unsure about how Modern Era population should be determined in an 'ideal world'.
    Everything I come up with is a really weird and dumb representation. Mostly because in civ4, having your cities grow really big and be unhealthy is good, whereas your cities being very small and healthy is less good.
    I guess something like a combination of:
    * Industrial era buildings/techs which massively increase city growth, representing urbanisation
    * Modern era buildings/techs which increase city health but lower growth,
    * Unhealthiness in the industrial era has significant unhappiness/hammers/commerce penalties
    But:
    * Factories and cars didn't make people have more kids, it was people moving to the cities for jobs.
    * Hospitals and sewers didn't make people have less kids, it was people moving to escape the cities.
    So maybe something more like:
    * Hammers/commerce/culture contributes to growth in the industrial era and later
    * Healthiness reduces growth and unhealthiness does not in the industrial era and later
    * Unhealthiness in the industrial era and later has significant unhappiness/hammers/commerce/culture penalties
    Still seems pretty imperfect as a representation though. Overall though I think we should aim for a realistic representation of population in the modern era, rather than just leaving it ultimately to food.
     
  18. Dragonxander PR

    Dragonxander PR Emperor of the Drakons

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    Been refining my ideas for the Caribbean, but am yet to do so with the map development build. Provisionally, I'm using vanilla BtS to illustrate my ideas. Tried my best to make sure the changes in the Caribbean islands do not impact at all the continental areas and have minimal impact on the Atlantic Ocean.


    Spoiler Caribbean--proposed principal island layout :

    Changes:
    • Cuba and Hispaniola now have 6 cells each, which negates the small island compensation for resource yields but allows for a proper acknowledgement of their status as major islands on a global scale. Also represented are three rivers: Cauto (Cuba), Artibonite (Haiti) and Yaque del Sur (Dominican Republic).

    • Jamaica, Puerto Rico and Bahamas get 2 cells each, due to being the next biggest Caribbean jurisdictions by landmass. Bahamas may be reduced to 1 settle-able island with the use of the cays, as was done in the original map.

    • Trinidad and Tobago has oil on the landmass, as most of the exploitation of fossil fuels here happens either on land or shallow waters, rather than deep waters offshore

    • Added Curaçao to at least maintain representation of the ABC islands off the shores of Venezuela. In general, the idea is to allow for widespread competition for a colonial presence in the Caribbean, and these small islands still mattered a lot to France, Netherlands, Great Britain and even Denmark on occasions, contrary to Spain's neglect due to being obsessed with the continental colonies and European power struggles.

    Topography:
    • Cuba's only highly mountainous area is the Sierra Maestra, represented by the two hills to the southeast.

    • Hispaniola has hills on the Haiti site, as Haiti itself is more mountainous than the Dominican Republic, even if the latter possesses the highest summit of the Caribbean islands, Pico Duarte. It also makes it such that the large flat areas of the Dominican Republic are better represented.

    • Jamaica: debating on whether to have both cells as hills or only the cell to the east. Jamaica's highest summit is the Blue Mountain Peak, which is located northeast of Kingston. To balance things out, the west half could be represented as flat terrain instead because of its much lower elevation and having various large coastal plains.

    • Puerto Rico: decided to make the entire island hilly because coastal plains and inland valleys of the island are narrow. Hill topography also plays in making the island far more defensible, as it was very well-secured against four major conquest attempts by rival European colonial powers and it took all the way to 1898, in the Spanish-American war, for an invading force to overwhelm defenses, and topography still assisted the defensive line to halt the American invasion from Guánica, at the Cayey Ridge.

    • Trinidad: keeping the island flat because mountains are concentrated on the far north and south sides, while the central region is between flat and rolling. It also makes it more easily conquerable, as it happened with the attack by General Sir Ralph Abercromby in 1797.

    • Martinique and Grenada keep their hilly topography, while Curaçao is made flat due to its gentle rolling topography. Turks and Caicos also maintains its flat terrain.



    Spoiler Caribbean--proposed city names and close-up :


    Situation with city names:

    CUBA:
    • Chose Santa Clara over Cienfuegos due to its larger population (208k vs 164k) and more ancient European settlement (1689 vs 1819). However, Cienfuegos matches the site of the Taíno chiefdom of Jaragua and may justify its use.

    • Pinar del Río, Havana, Camagüey, Santiago de Cuba and Guantanamo are uncontested because they are clearly more populous than than nearby cities and towns and are well-represented historically.

    JAMAICA:
    • Easy decision to use Kingston in the east and Montego Bay to the west. Tricky part would be representing Kingston's past history, as there used to be a pirate (barbarian?) city at the entrance of its bay, known as Port Royal. Port Royal was destroyed in its entirety following the 1692 Jamaica earthquake, as the land where it once stood sank with the tectonic movements.

    HISPANIOLA:
    • Split the island halfway, giving 3 city sites for Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

    • Represented in Haiti are Port-au-Prince, Gonaïves and Les Cayes. Chose Gonaïves over Cap Haïtien due to its historical significance, both as a major Taíno settlement and as a center of revolutionary activity leading to Haiti's independence. For a pirate flavor, the site of Gonaïves could be represented as the pirate (barbarian?) city of Tortuga, which in reality corresponds to a small island off the north shores of Haiti (closer to Cap Haïtien).

    • Santo Domingo and Santiago de los Caballeros are easy choices, as these two cities are by far the largest of the Dominican Republic, along with both being historically significant. The tricky part is representing the east side, debating between Salvaleón de Higüey and La Romana. Salvaleón de Higüey is significant as the center of a Taíno chiefdom and being one of the earliest Spanish colonial settlements, dating to 1503. Nowadays it's significant as a city benefiting from the tourist activity in the Punta Cana coast. Meanwhile, La Romana has a lower population and was founded much later (1897).

    PUERTO RICO:
    • The east side of Puerto Rico is easily represented by San Juan, as it by far dominates over all the other cities and towns in history, economy, population and strategic value.

    • The west side of Puerto Rico is trickier because there are four candidate choices with strong merits each. Ponce is currently the most populous and well-developed city in the western half of the Island, but was not always a major center of political and economic power, nor was a major indigenous power/population center. Arecibo is the oldest city to be on its place (founded in 1515) but never developed politically or economically as much. San Germán is extremely important as an early settlement among the main Taíno chiefdoms, but never took off as a major city, and had to be moved multiple times throughout its history, starting close to where Mayagüez now stands. Mayagüez stands out due to being between the two major centers of indigenous power of Puerto Rico, being culturally influential in its own right and being the least influenced by San Juan. I'd go with Mayagüez initially but would also accept Ponce and Arecibo.

    BAHAMAS:
    • Nassau is represented as being the most important colonial settlement of the archipelago.

    • Freeport is the option for the other possible site corresponding to the Bahamas, although its importance is relatively more recent as it did not exist as a city prior to the 1950s.

     
  19. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    Spoiler Iran :
    Iran.jpg

    -Added Lake Urmia.
    -This is extremely pedantic and possibly bad for gameplay, but one could move the Mesopotamian marble slightly northeast. The Mesopotamian plain doesn't seem to have any marble IRL, but Kermanshah seems pretty well-known for it.
    -The traditional staple crops of the Iranian world are wheat and barley (later also rice) (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/barley), with other crops having more of a local importance in some areas during some periods of time. So I think at least one of the two food sources in the north should changed to wheat.
    -One could replace the southwestern Iranian olives with citrus. Iran produces lots of citrus, and the Dezful/Ahwaz area is one area where they are grown.
    -One saffron moved towards Khorasan Razavi province (https://financialtribune.com/articl...my/21723/khorasan-razavi-top-saffron-producer).
    -Silk spawn in northern Iran. It seems that silk production in the Caspian area became important sometime between the 6th and 10th century AD. Silk exports were important for the Safavids (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_in_Iran's_Safavid_era). Alternatively one could spawn rice or tea here, which have been discussed before and are also very reasonable.
     
  20. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    I think the Peak 1SE of the Lake Urmia tile should be moved 1 tile West. I think we can put Ecbatana on that tile along with some food resources, if that city can be included in the game.
     
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