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[Development] Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 26, 2018.

  1. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Yes I agree what Leo said about China, pre-placed independent or maybe barbarian cities in South China is a better choice than a new Baiyue Civilization.
    Either Wu or Yue State is a part of Zhou Dynasty and nominally they obey the domination of the King of Zhou. So they are not able to be an independent civ.
    Also maybe out of topic. I find that only 2 independent leaders is to few for DoC. Independent cities in Africa and East Asia have a same leader and same techs, it's absurd. But I don't know how to find a better way to solve it.
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Part of my plans for when we have civs untied from slots to have a variable number of independent civs, preferably one per tech group at least. If few civs are in game, we can have more independent civs, and scale their number back when more civs are on the map.
     
  3. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    Eh, they're one of the major powers during the Warring States period, which began 600 years before the Qin in 800 BC. Parts of the Yue got conquered by the Qin and later the Han, but it rose again as an independent state until its final conquest by the Jin Empire of 280 AD. 1000 years of history is a pretty good run, especially for a state that (using current mechanics) could easily 'respawn' as the Eastern Jin and Southern Song dynasties later on, just as the ancient Greeks respawn as the Byzantine Empire.

    The history of northern and southern China has sufficiently dissimilar, and the rivalry between northern and southern dynasties is so routine in Chinese history, that we ought to represent if at all possible. Certainly, representing the history of northern nomads takes precedence, as that was the primary frontier for most of Chinese history, but doing justice to the southern states well within the scope and scale of this game.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I don't think using a non Chinese civ is a good way to represent conflicts between Chinese dynasties.
     
  5. Enyavar

    Enyavar Prince

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    In most periods? Let's look at that: The Zhou era had a unified Northern China, while the entire area south of the Yangze river was not part of that empire. Sure, it's okay to place barbarian/independent cities in China for that era, right until the Qin dynasty comes along. That was the point where (northern) China started dominating the Yue, and slowly sinisized them. Still, that process took long. Very long. The Han dominated southern China as nominal vassals, but only the short-lived Jin dynastie re-unified China again, 280 AD. That union fell apart in less than a hundred years and we have the Southern and Northern Dynasties for another 200 years until 590. Then re-unification under the Sui and Tang for about 300 years; before China split apart again for less than 100 years. The Song re-unified China again, but they always had strong northern neighbors, the Western Xia and the Greater Jin Dynasty (Jurchen) who drove the Song to concentrate on their power base in southern China.
    Mongols enter and leave the stage and THEN we can really argue that China was a unified nation afterwards (Ming, Qing eras). And even in our later times, a North-South split was often visible, what with the Southern Ming, the Taiping rebellion or the KMT/Taiwan issue.
    Those movements are hardly comparable to each other - but then, the (Northern) Chinese dynasties are also swept into the same basket despite vast differences between them. I'm aware that we're talking a game here, so we need to simplify historical narratives and disregard detail snapshots. Otherwise we would have to take into account that four different Babylonian empires existed, and that classical Egypt went through 30 dynasties, half of them not fully Egyptian.

    Long story short, I'm taking a stance for a (weaker, more economically driven) Southern China civ that may exist independently of the Northern one, unless when Northern China has them vassalized or gobbled them up entirely. The area in China's south is certainly large enough to support that. Southern China would have a later starting point than Northern China, and they would get a smaller core area, mainly at the coast. They should rarely dominate the entire China, as that is the role of Northern China. But in eras where Northern China is weak, they should pick up momentum for a while.

    They'd start as the Bai Yue tribes and Yue Kingdoms until roughly 200 AD, afterwards known as Southern China (with likely names of Southern Dynasties, Southern Song, Southern Ming, Kanton/Guangdong, Taiping, KMT/Nationalist China).

    I'm not entirely sure how playable they would be. They'd more exist as the NPCiv antagonist to China, like the Celts are the antagonist to Rome in Europe.

    What, vassals are not able to be an independent civ? Even the State of Chu (like Wu and Yue) was not a happy vassal to the Zhou Kings and constantly threatened the northern state alliances - not to forget that the Zhou King had no influence later on.

    And Wu/Yue from the late Zhou era (not to be confused with the Bai Yue that I suggest above) were also just 'nominally obeying', like you said. In fact, they were hegemons in their own right, while the Jin state and its alliance of the Northern Chinese Plains crumbled in the Warring States period.
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I see no historical continuity in any "south Chinese" civilisation. They would be an artificial construct.
     
  7. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    After reading some articles about colonialism in Africa, I want to make a small suggestion: add some rubber in central Africa.

    Spoiler :

    African rubber.JPG


    The resources represent the Congo rubber, a species of vine found in Africa roughly in all tropical areas. Although not productive as the Brazilian rubber trees, these African plants were commercially exploited by European powers by late 19th century (notably Belgium, whose brutal forced harvesting in the Congo Free State became a symbol of colonial atrocities and oppression). As you can see, I've added them in the Congo basin (it was an important colonial product both in the French and Belgian Congos, also in French Central Africa) and Cameroon (German-French exploitation), but to be honest I'm not sure if these tiles are representative of specific areas of major production.
     
  8. Steb

    Steb King

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    A few suggestions on Central and South America:
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0161.jpg

    • I'm not 100% sure that the tile between the gems and gold in Colombia is the intended Bogotá location. In any case, the Bogotá tile should be a forest-less savanna tile, representing the Bogotá savanna in the Altiplano Cundiboyacense. (EDIT: It's the tile 1E of that.)
    • I suggest connecting Lake Nicaragua with the Caribbean Sea by adding the San Juan River. This river seems to have had historical importance, being one of the main ways to cross Central America before the Panama Canal, and effectively turning cities on Lake Nicaragua into Atlantic ports. It was/is also under consideration for the proposed Nicaragua Canal project.
    • The Galapagos islands have a mostly dry tropical climate. I suggest turning this tile into a plains (or savanna) tile, and changing the color of the islands feature.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  9. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    Giving the map distortions, Bogotá is 1E of that tile, since it is located east from Magdalena river as you can see in the link. And I agree that is better represented as an open savanna tile.
     
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  10. Steb

    Steb King

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    Another thing about Colombia: there should be a salt resource near Bogotá. The indigenous Muisca were known as the 'salt people' because of their salt mines, and those mines are still exploited today. There's even a rival to the Polish Salt Cathedral wonder.

    The best tile for this would be the corn tile 1N of Bogotá, but then the corn would need to go somewhere else or be removed altogether. Colombia is already very resource dense, so another resource may be too much, but I think salt may be more important than some of the other resources, though I'm not sure what they all are. Gold and gems (emeralds) need to stay, however.
     
  11. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    Agreed with the salt addition, but I'm not sure about removing altogether the corn. Yeah, Colombia is very resouce dense (in part as result of map distortions that compressed Colombia vertically as we discussed before), but I'm afraid that removing the corn (or any other food related resource) could severely limit the growth of Colombian cities, particularly landlocked Bogotá, since most of the territory is made of rainforest, jungle and hill tiles. Perhaps we could solve this possible issue by adding a food resource nearby in the Amazon within Bogotá city radius.

    Taking opportunity from the post, I would also suggest a minor addition to West Africa: a spice in modern Liberia. It would represent the Guinea pepper, a spice that gave the region its former known name of Pepper (or alternatively Grain) Coast. It was a resource exploited by early Portuguese colonial ventures in the region, being nicknamed as "grains of paradise" in late medieval Europe.
     
  12. Steb

    Steb King

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    More!
    • Add the Guayas river, "the most important river in South America that does not flow into the Atlantic Ocean or any of its marginal seas". It should flow east of what I assume to be the Guayaquil tile, i.e. the plains tile with savanna trees. In real life, Guayaquil—the most important city in Ecuador—is on the river near its large delta.
    • Not essential, but I would move the mountain identified in the screenshot into the Amazon forest. The idea is to give the coast a less disjointed feel and provide some breathing space to Lima, which is after all one of the largest cities in South America. It could alternatively be one of the tiles that become a hill after the Columbian exchange.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0162.jpg

    Not relatedly, I suggest turning every tile with an islands feature into a coast tile. Some of them are ocean tiles, which I think is bad because (1) it doesn't look pretty and (2) it makes no sense that early naval units can't enter these tiles, since they contain land that can be used for navigation. I noticed islands features on ocean tiles in the following locations:
    • The Shetlands (north of Scotland)
    • Mayotte (NW of Madagascar)
    • Norfolk Island (north of New Zealand)
    • Many tiles in Polynesia; some will probably need to be moved around in order not to disrupt the Polynesian UHV by providing early access to some of the main islands
    • Among the atolls of Kiribati
    • The Aleutian Islands
    • Haida Gwaii (west of British Columbia)
    • San Andrés and Providencia (north of Panama)
    I think that's it but I may have missed some. (EDIT: I had missed the last one.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  13. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    New resource idea:
    Buffalo/American Bison, (Improvement: Camp)
    Food +1, (Production +1 with Camp? Or gold +1?)
    Either it obsoletes with an Industrial Age tech (Ballistics? Rifles being the American Bisons biggest downfall OR Railroad?) or there is a scripted event where buffalo resources disappear/are replaced by cows (maybe this is preferrable because you could keep 1 or 2 on the map (Wyoming/Northern Alberta).

    It's perhaps not a large priority barring addition of a Mississippian civilization but it could be a colonial era resource that human player could exploit or on the off-chance that AI France actually colonizes the plains, which happens occasionally. The US could also briefly exploit buffalo before researching Ballistics. It would give them an immediate food/production boost in settlements as they cross the plains.

    It could also be used in other places for African buffalo or Water buffalo which I think are sometimes marked as cow on the map currently?

    Does a model exist for American Bison/Buffalo?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  14. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Alternative thought, rather than obsoleting, the industrial era tech unlocks pasture for bison which changes the yield to be the same as cow. Could still have cows spawn within reason and some bison disappear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  15. Enyavar

    Enyavar Prince

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    I believe this will be eventually covered once we get the new world map where there are resource variations, and buffalo are a cow variation.
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I don't think Bison is a Cow variety, it is most accurately a Camp resource. I considered adding it but didn't really see much purpose, they should historically disappear when American culture is spreading into the area. Maybe it makes sense once there are actual Plains Indian civs.
     
  17. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    I agree. If you eventually add the Sioux or Blackfoot Confederacy, or similar (Metis could be cool too, though the timespan is smaller), then Bison would be a good resource to add, and having it disappear around the time of American expansion would be a good way to represent the historical destruction of the Bison population and the corresponding effect on the civilizations that depended on them. Without those civilization added though, the resource would be mostly aesthetic.
     
  18. Tab911

    Tab911 Chieftain

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    Spoiler Levant :
    me.JPG

    Red - Cities
    1 - Jerusalem
    2 - Damascus
    3 - Antioch/Aleppo
    4 - Tyre/Acre
    5 - Babylon/Baghdad
    6 - Nineveh/Mosul

    Blue - Resources
    1 - Move Sheep from Damascus tile to be fought between Jerusalem and Damascus
    2 - Marble for Antioch/Damascus
    3 - Move wheat for Damascus/Antioch

    Orange Tiles should be semi-desert.
     
  19. PacoPaco

    PacoPaco Chieftain

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    Shouldn't Nineveh be on 1E, since it was located on the east bank of the Tigris? The current tile could be Assur in the ancient era. Both tiles could possibly be Mosul, since that city has expanded to cover both banks (though I am not sure since when). Alternatively that tile could be Erbil.

    General question: are we still in the process of creating the name map and how could one contribute to that?

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Here is the development thread for city names. It hasn't been active for a while, which is probably because I am not responsive to suggestions at the moment. I still think the best way to contribute is to start from LacsiraxAriscal's map.
     
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