Did "The West" invade Russia in 1941?

[Angst]

Haven't read the thread, this is for the discourse touched on in OP and following posts.

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Wait, this is the idea that "the West" would attack Russia, because Nazi Germany did? I simply can't start at how crackpot this is. It fully conflates the cultural institution of the West (historical since Greeks, partly including Russia tbh and a very nebulous concept) with the metonymic West connecting modern US alliances.

Strange.
I live in a Western nation and I have no recollection of Denmark attacking the USSR and taking part in murdering 27 Million people in WW2, as you insinuate.
I think the Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch, Belgians, French, Canadians and so on, have a similar reaction.

Yes, and

Apparently NATO likes to invade itself, even, since it has done so since the Greeks. I am Danish too and apparently I should fear the US invading me?

Like I don't know where to start as to how crackpot this is. There's understanding the West as a long cultural structure resulting in NATO, and then there's the idea that NATO attacks Russia because Nazi Germany did (which proto-NATO fought). So because NATO is part of Western history, should I be afraid of NATO attacking Denmark through either Germany or Sweden, seeing our history? Like, does anyone Russian understand how absolutely bonkers this is?

what the hell is one taught in Russian schools

Moderator Action: Please don't use the word "crackpot". The_J

 

[Verbose]

Haven't read the thread, this is for the discourse touched on in OP and following posts.

-

Wait, this is the idea that "the West" would attack Russia, because Nazi Germany did? I simply can't start at how crackpot this is. It fully conflates the cultural institution of the West (historical since Greeks, partly including Russia tbh and a very nebulous concept) with the metonymic West connecting modern US alliances.



Yes, and

Apparently NATO likes to invade itself, even, since it has done so since the Greeks. I am Danish too and apparently I should fear the US invading me?

Like I don't know where to start as to how crackpot this is. There's understanding the West as a long cultural structure resulting in NATO, and then there's the idea that NATO attacks Russia because Nazi Germany did (which proto-NATO fought). So because NATO is part of Western history, should I be afraid of NATO attacking Denmark through either Germany or Sweden, seeing our history? Like, does anyone Russian understand how absolutely bonkers this is?

what the hell is one taught in Russian schools

At least it's not more crack-pot than an alternative Russian idea that also has some currency today – that Russia is engaged in the End Times struggle against the Anti-Christ, which is "the west"... As such, rather than have Ukraine fall to the Forces of Darkness, Russia is defending the Forces of Light, by attacking in a purely defensive move – of eschatological significance no less. So the Ukranians willing to die for their country is literally the Work of The Devil, and God will sort them out in the end...

 

[Verbose]

How close are we figuring out the true meaning of 'the West' or will it be reavealed to us by a messiah of some sort?

Possibly that would be Putin...

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I wonder how they would explain this photo:

You know US,UK and USSR in one place but not Nazi Germany. If Nazi Germany was "the west" surely they would be there as well?"

 

[amadeus]

If anything illustrates how moronic the term "the West" is, it's this thread.

It is at least a useful shorthand for "the United States, Canada, Western European NATO members, Australia and New Zealand, as well as Japan, the Republic of Korea and the Republic of China" or USCANWENATOAZJPROKROCQ+ for short. The Q is for curious countries "questioning" Westernism and the plus means it is not necessarily exclusive to the named members.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Bi-Qurious

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

"you claiming that the West never attacked Russia first, speaking in context of WW2 is beyond ridiculous." Said no one ever.

 

[Modder_Mode]

Please don't tell me you believe in the Rothschild conspiracy and that somehow Nazi Germany was a useful tool/puppet for either the British or Americans (depending on which version of the conspiracy one subscribes to).

Are you talking about Rudolf Hess' flight to Britain right before the the German invasion of the Soviet Union? Even if the British did know the date of the upcoming invasion Stalin wouldn't believe them anyway because of his paranoia that the allies wanted to draw the Soviets into the war, which is exactly what the allies wanted, hence the conspiracy theories. There's an interesting book written about it which goes into great detail and asks the question as to why two inventories were taken of items carried by Hess when he was captured but have never been released, this is what a lot of the conspiracies are based around.

 

[Angst]

Yes, yes, continue bashing. Anyone else wants to join the crowd in righteous fury?

We're free to talk about the point presented. And it's a bad point. So.

But alright, let's assume we don't understand you, being unfair or whatever.

Here's your chance. (I did read the thread at this point, including your posts.) Please explain how, in any way, Nazi Germany's invasion of Russia is relevant to Russia being afraid of NATO. You may keep in mind the below outlines.

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So the exchange.

People said being afraid of NATO was nonsense, saying the West (again, metonymic for NATO) had never invaded Russia.

You said Nazi Germany did.

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So here's my perspective on why people are baffled and rightfully tear down what you said.

If you want Nazi Germany to be included in "the West", my first post in this thread applies. And your point was bad.

If you don't want them to be included in "the West", they're a completely irrelevant point. So your point was bad.

At this point you never said your point was bad. You said you phrased it wrongly. Phrase it right then. Let us know how in any way Nazi Germany attacking Russia is relevant, or part of "Western aggression" that doesn't include Nazi Germany attacking pretty much everyone else in "the West".

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Answer to thread title: No. More succinctly, a Western country, Germany, invaded Russia. The West implies: North America, the whole of Europe and Oceania. To say "The West" invaded Russia is not true. To say Germany, a Western country, attacked Russia is accurate. The implication is either intentionally misleading, which is what I believe, or unintentionally misleading. Also, it would be fair to underscore that at the time Germany invaded Russia, it was also at war with most other Western countries.

Strong Reaction deserves a reply from people claiming the West attacked Russia.

 

[Kyriakos]

Tbf, for ancient Greece the "west" didn't exist - and obviously no one then regarded people to the west or north of Greece as civilized in the slightest. Barbarian meant "non-greek" and wasn't about some (impossible) view according to which persians, egyptians or lydians were less developed than celts or other savages ( ). The term itself seems to come from the pronunciation and repetitiveness of non-greek words, more so to the ear of an ancient greek. Bar-bar-bar (which in greek sounds like var-var-var btw; varum, one such person might ask).

Besides, a few wonders of the hellenistic world were by non-greeks; the great Pyramid and the Hanging Gardens.

 

[Joij21]

If you want Nazi Germany to be included in "the West", my first post in this thread applies. And your point was bad.

Maybe he sees modern day Germany as the simple continuation of Nazi Germany.

Nazi Germany -> West Germany -> Germany

And since Germany is currently part of NATO, is basically in charge of the EU, and bullies Greece with austerity measures (their Eastern Orthodox brethren) the West must therefore be inclusive of modern day Nazis.

The only true Germany was East Germany but it was unfortunately and illegally swallowed up by Western Germany during the geopolitical travesty (as Putin words it) that was the fall of the USSR.

East Germany was the only properly "de-nazified" Germany. West Germany kept it's Nazis because of the West's traitorous "Operation Paperclip". Now what was formerly East Germany has now been "re-nazified" by the corrupt, decadent, and perverted modern Germany.

 

[red_elk]

We're free to talk about the point presented. And it's a bad point. So.

But alright, let's assume we don't understand you, being unfair or whatever.

Here's your chance. (I did read the thread at this point, including your posts.) Please explain how, in any way, Nazi Germany's invasion of Russia is relevant to Russia being afraid of NATO. You may keep in mind the below outlines.

-

So the exchange.

People said being afraid of NATO was nonsense, saying the West (again, metonymic for NATO) had never invaded Russia.

You said Nazi Germany did.

-

So here's my perspective on why people are baffled and rightfully tear down what you said.

If you want Nazi Germany to be included in "the West", my first post in this thread applies. And your point was bad.

If you don't want them to be included in "the West", they're a completely irrelevant point. So your point was bad.

At this point you never said your point was bad. You said you phrased it wrongly. Phrase it right then. Let us know how in any way Nazi Germany attacking Russia is relevant, or part of "Western aggression" that doesn't include Nazi Germany attacking pretty much everyone else in "the West".

My original point had nothing to do with NATO and whatever the concept of West constitutes. And it wasn't worth creating separate thread to discuss.

All what I did was replying to a poster who claimed that Russia attacked Western country during WW2 (meaning Finland), while Western countries never attacked Russia.
I answered that if you consider WW2 Finland as Western country, Nazi Germany also falls under this definition. And claiming that the West never attacked Russia in this case is ridiculous.

 

[r16]

I wonder how they would explain this photo:

You know US,UK and USSR in one place but not Nazi Germany. If Nazi Germany was "the west" surely they would be there as well?"

ugh , can ı ? Instead of some Russian who is kept busy with splitting hairs ? One was not cool enough for the conspiracy that doesn't exist and would have been toppled by an American Legion of 500 000 souls but its designated commander balked for some reason . One is rather smart and would have loved some other setup but some accident knocked France out of the war , emboldened Adolf to try his luck beyond the conspiracy that doesn't exist . So that the third was absolutely necessary . For the duration . Without 1949 , this picture would have been 1984ed already .

 

[Angst]

My original point had nothing to do with NATO and whatever the concept of West constitutes. And it wasn't worth creating separate thread to discuss.

All what I did was replying to a poster who claimed that Russia attacked Western country during WW2 (meaning Finland), while Western countries never attacked Russia.
I answered that if you consider WW2 Finland as Western country, Nazi Germany also falls under this definition. And claiming that the West never attacked Russia in this case is ridiculous.

Honestly, this places it square in the nebulously ill-defined West as a grander structure rather than something concrete. It definitely has something to do with what the West constitutes, because you literally invoked it per a certain framing. It's like describing red without admitting you are thinking in regards to colors.

Anyways, your post, in which case, yes, I guess the West attacked Russia, but it (Germany) also attacked the West (Netherlands), the West (Belgium), the West (France), the West (UK), the West (Denmark), the West (Norway), the West (Poland) and the West (Czechoslovakia). (I think I'm counting that correctly.) Including the West and the West, depending on how you gage the Austria thing, and the war with USA which was sinking ships for most of the war (UK counts since UK-held territories were invaded by German troops). Also, to put it bluntly, then the West truly overlaps with Russia too as the meagre contingent structure that is Western thought, although this identity is of course mostly in part.

So. Your answer is literally only kinda useful to that first poster if the above is the way you look at things, in which case due to the nebulousness of the whole ordeal, it's really, really irrelevant to the point of the poster you answered. Like, to be blunt, whether fair or not, the consideration of what the West encompasses rarely includes Nazi Germany, and does indeed include Finland during that period. It's this view of it that's in any way useful to the discussion of Ukraine, ie whether Russia literally has anything to fear from "the West". Point being, I don't believe your observation is good at all.

Did the West invade Russia during WW2? Only if is completely moot as to the point of "Western aggression", moot to whether Russia has anything to fear.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

All what I did was replying to a poster who claimed that Russia attacked Western country during WW2 (meaning Finland), while Western countries never attacked Russia.
I answered that if you consider WW2 Finland as Western country, Nazi Germany also falls under this definition. And claiming that the West never attacked Russia in this case is ridiculous.

The West never attacked Russia, because the West is a nonsense denominator.

Claiming the West attacked Russia is ridiculous. It means the West was fighting the West in WW2 and the West won and lost.

 

[Angst]

The West never attacked Russia, because the West is a nonsense denominator.

Claiming the West attacked Russia is ridiculous. It means the West was fighting the West in WW2 and the West won and lost.

I wish I could be as succinct at this.

That said, to be fair, whether the West is nonsense in actuality, it is sometimes used and has some shape of a borderline as in usage. The historical amorphousness of it (ie its nonsensity) is part of the reason why Nazis-as-part-of-the-West is really irrelevant as to the question from the other thread, where the West pretty much equals NATO and (partly) aligned countries.

Like, to be clear, I really dislike texts that assume Western continuity and Western thought as a discrete field that can be thoroughly understood. Particularly because modern "Western" appeals to older "Western" elements (like Kyriakos noted) is more often than not very untrue as to the state of things.

This is also why Nazis=the West is so... Well, it can be structurally talked about as kind of an extreme of Western thought by some scholars, but there's a huge difference from this and actually use it as if (part of) a monolith when discussing the West as "invading Russia" during WW2. One can't both use the point of the monolith and claim it's not a monolith without any much point. It's like logic; the Nazis can be part of the set, sure, but appealing to the set as if Nazi's all the set then becomes an illegal argument.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

The West never attacked Russia, because the West is a nonsense denominator.

Claiming the West attacked Russia is ridiculous. It means the West was fighting the West in WW2 and the West won and lost.

West is a mythical terminology anyway. Used mostly by a nutjob dictator to scare its people for support.

 

[Angst]

West is a mythical terminology anyway. Used mostly by a nutjob dictator to scare its people for support.

kanye 2024

 

[r16]

so , no love for my cool post ? Well , 1949 not only gives the bomb to Russians who really love brandishing it but also removes China from the West (that doesn't exist now but might when it suits) . This thing actually involves the greatest success of Devil being convincing people that the Devil did not exist . There are games many people can play , in a statement that has been found funny for a time longer than many would have believed .