Also I don't think we should bother building HA's for a while since they take a lot of hammers and won't really need them until later. Chariots pretty cheap to build and since we are going to be up against axes/archers for a while better with those.
Looking forward to your report Pholk.....
(Ok time to see fortuneteller and get that luck changed)
(PS worked with a fellow from Hong Kong in Vancouver and he got upset with us for moving his desk as it was bad luck. He told us that he needs to check with fortuneteller first before any changes are made. Learned something new that day.)
"It was not your fault, Mistress." The young attendent tried to approach the young woman, but she waved her away.
"No?" said Toshi. "Who sent them east Takako? Who were they listening to tell tales of riding those beasts into battle?" She stopped her pacing, and looked at the young attendent. "No, Takako, it was no one's fault BUT mine!"
"Mistress, please, these people knew the risk they took, knew about the attacks by the local tribes."
"And still they went east to found a settlement near those . . . 'horses,' " she struggled with the unfamilar word. You sited Tokugawa's Strength in a good position...
"Takako, they did it for ME. If I weren't here, there wouldn't be this war, wouldn't be these incessant attacks by the local tribesmen. If it weren't for me, the wouldn't've have died..."
"Finding those wretches bathing in the river was a sweet reward...
...but it will not bring back those men, those women . . . those children . . ." Her voice trailed off as tears came to her eyes. Takako now dared approach her mistress.
"You have sighted the gaurds well now,
and we will not send out our children without proper escorts. You must collect yourself. You need to lead , you are the Golden General--" She immediately knew that was the wrong thing to say.
"I never asked for this Takako. I did not WANT this." With that, she strode from the room, leaving the attendent staring to the east, towards the ruins of Tokugawa's Strength ~ an ominous omen, she wondered . . .
SpoilerTech Splashes! Hooray! :
SpoilerOverview Map :
OOC: welp, as i said, my poor luck has been continuing, but it seems to be getting better ~ we didn't lose our capital! We need more archers and more settlers. IF we can get those horses online quickly, our WCs should take care of the barb problems for a good time to come. Also, i would forego pasturing the pigs until the barbs are less of a problem and focus on farming those FPs and minign those hills for now.
Roster:
Patagonia >
Cabledawg >
Cosmichail >
Pholkhero > just played
GreyFox > swapped Pigswill > UP NOW
Zophos > on deck
Strauss
mmmmmm Did you send that settler out with a warrior?
Also I did notice greyfox changed it to the pigs from mining the hill. What I was thinking at the time was that minining the hill would be more efficient since we have plenty of food in the floodplains and pigs/rice will be just too hard to defend. Once we built the mine we could defend it with archers until axes show up but if it's the usual onslaught we could have an archer with Guerilla promotion and continue along that path so that even an axe would have a hard time taking him out.
Also to the positioning of the city that is no more I think the hill was good but what I liked about my suggested settling site was that we could pick up the gems, mine the hill one (defendable as well) and give us the necessary boost in science/coin.
After looking at the save I see we have an archer with guerrilla II promotion and worker probably starting a mine which after my turn I was hoping would be accomplished. Now I see we are working rice/oasis/FP. I guess it's to get our city growing fast but wouldn't it be better to have one citizen work the plains forest hill for fast archer build and then revert to farms for a settler. (archer would then only take 2 turns rather than 4 from this point and from the start would have made a big difference). Trust me the rice is nice but I give it what 5-10 turns and it's pillaged. Not worth wasting the worker's time with it right now.
I have been experimenting with this scenario a bit on my own. If we want horses then we will need to road the tile one south east (grass forest and defend that too) of the capitol to connect anything to that river since the capitol is not on the river.
I would rather see the settler sit in the capitol a few turns before moving him and allowing him to have an archer as an escort. Why warriors suck bad out in the open and even can loose to a animal. These are risks we shouldn't take especially with this new AI and what seem more aggressive barbs. It won't be long before axes show up too which seems to the norm now.
Pholk you say you are having bad luck but I'm sorry to say this but that was just poor decisions on your part. I normally do not like to critisize as such but you say don't pasture the pigs but on the same token farm the rice??????
We need production people not farms/pastures. Two mines should be built on that hill asap and one be worked and oasis/fp which cannot be pillaged. We have an excellent defender for the mine and if one gets pillaged we still have another. Once we hook up the horses the capitol can pump them out fast. Also city placement for the horses imo should be what I suggested as we have noticed in the last game we get major coinbleed at some point. Having gems would make all the difference and the spot I chose is also quite good as the dumb barbs/AI will attack across river or come from the east and we can force them into non defensive square by fortifying on the hills. We could mine the gem hill and defend which will eventually force the AI/barbs onto a non defensive tile. What we should do though is chop any forest/jungle nearby that suggested site once founded so that they are easy to attack as I have found WC are good against archers on non defensive terrain too.
I do agree with Greyfox's suggested spot for the third city which once we get monarchy will also offer some coin help.
We need to discuss our strategy a bit more rather than play individually. If this was SGOTM Pholk I would have your balls for breakfast LOL..... Don't be offended please I just like to get it out since we want to win right?
Ok me laughs a bit but am frustrated as I did a shadow game and my results at this point in the game were a lot different. It isn't about luck other than RNG but thinking clearly. I sense my friend that you are impatient which can cost. Take your time and weigh your options and unless you are playing SP do not take unnecessary risks. Taking a settler out with warrior even if it is a short distance is a bad move period. I never do it and always escort with archer or axes. Settlers are too costly in build time to take such risks.
Ok got that off my chest, please, let's play as a team.
I guess hammers vs food comes down to arguments about whipping vs straight production. Its certainly true that its difficult to protect anything with raging barbs and hostile AI. The AI should hopefully be having the same barb problems we experience.
Chariots are clearly the priority at this point. Second city is also important. I'm not sure where we're going tech-wise. I don't see much value in cottages at the moment. I don't think we'll get any early wonders. Writing for half price libraries is certainly worth considering.
well, first, there already was a warrior over that way, and I was moving another archer down south from the NE when it got hit by that barb archer. It was a gamble, yes, but one i thought would've paid off by getting the horses online faster, getting the horses online faster, and having WCs up and about (rather than waiting for the archer to make his way down to settle). If that archer hadn't lost at poor odds (he was defending on a hill) to the barb, then a)he would've been there to defend the 2nd town and b) there would've been one less archer attacking the new city (America had an archer there, too, that lost first to our defending warrior). As i said, a gamble, yes, but . . . nichevo. It can't be helped now. I almost always send out settlers unattended where they meet their city garrison on the way there ~ even on the higher difficulties, and very rarely get burned on it. Waiting for another archer, to me, seemed to be overly cautious. Obviously, this time, it was not.
I chose the hill, as you noted, for the added defense. W/the raging barbs on, these cities are going to be getting a lot of attention, so thought the added bonus was worth one less gem. the coin bleed we had last game was from a horrible lack of taking cities. I don't think i remember it being so bad in any other AW game we've played before. If things work out as i had envisioned, this city would be the last one we built for a while before we went out to
also, that rice is just next to our city, so defending it isn't as difficult as the pigs, and also, there's no real barbs coming from the south so it's a little more safe. finally, i think we could use the farms now to grow our city more for whipping another settler ASAP. If we don't get something other than archers soon to defend with, then we'll be toast . . . as you say, the Barb axes come a bit earlier now. Finally, we had also been discussing using Priests during the game as well (which is why we're 1 turn from Mysticism), and so, obviously, more food=more priests. as far as working the current tiles, we've got 2 archers and a warrior about our city there ~ we grow to 4, whip a settler, use the overflow for another archer and settle.
finally, I'm glad you got that off your chest, and no offense taken; 'tis only a game ~ but, really, it all came down to that crummy roll on our NE archer. If he had won, we'd have horses online by the middle of the next set, and you'd be posting about my ballsy gambit
We need to stay on military path so mathematics (or prerequisite first) then construction and I would say after that monarchy. Also whipping a city of two is useless and we need first to get pop up to max and then considering whipping. We need military in an all war game and taking 7-9 turns to build archer is too slow and using mines will get them much faster. Since the patch I don't think whipping is as effective as the AI seems to not do it and grow their cities huge. Doing that allows for big production centers and we will be faced again with countless soldiers attacking us. (like the last game we whipped so much that our cities just couldn't be whipped anymore ergo my argument only whip if it's absolutely necessary)
Our city probably has been whipped a few times already although in my shadow game I didn't do it once and pumped out archers every 2 turns and chariots every 4 turns from capitol. Likewise for second city also pumping out chariot in 4 turns and archers in 2. With a larger pop we can also get more commerce/production/ and personally I only whip once they get past the happy limit and/or if there is a threat and need soldiers asap. If that is the case though then again poor planning in not having enough soldiers. We must build at least one more archer then settler and after more archers then another worker as horses need to be hooked up asap.
This game is going to be tough and having cities with low pop just means we are going to have problems keeping up.
I know a lot of people go for the whipping method but I tend to get pop going first now since the new AI. I would love to do an analogy as to which way is more effective but from my experience the healthy city approach seems to yield more in the long run. What do we get for 1 pop whip without forge/engineer what 30 hammers. This when I wish namliaM was here he could explain it and at this point we are simply too small to whip and only have one city with 2 pop. Another thing about whipping is that one cannot have a specialist on board. If we want to keep teching in any way which killed us last time then with the obelisk we could have a specialist (even two) and look to get GP for tech down the road. Even if he doesn't give a good tech maybe meditation/polytheism then he could be merged for production/coin. The coin is where we have problems in this type of game.
Losing that city is a major setback since it means we are going to loose about 20 turns getting to building chariots. That means we will have to deal with axes possibly without chariots.
Merenra VII, Hereditary High Priest of the Temple of Anubis, stood silently on the bottom step in front of the throne. The throne was an imposing affair of black granite with golden veins running through it, a golden phoenix, the symbol of the royal house of Egypt, resplendent above the crimson velvet on the throne itself. On the throne sat a young woman, her hair the colour of the phoenix above, dressed in a plain white robe, a golden ankh resting on her lap.
"My lord Merenra", began the queen, "you have been my vizier for the past six hundred seasons. What news of the Kingdom?"
Merenra sank to both knees as custom dictated. "Your majesty" he replied,"These long years have seen wave after wave of barbarian invaders attacking our lands, pillaging our fields. Were it not for the constant vigilance of the Sunguard Bowmen the hill mines to the north would long since have fallen to their predations.
Nor is there any news of any slackening in their frenzy. Indeed we have received recent reports of new barbarian nations on the outskirts of the lands. their warriors wearing cuirboilli armour and armed with crude two handed axes.
However despite appearances there has been some progress. The priests of my temple have long since mastered the mysteries and have progressed to advanced hieroglyphics to pass on our accumulated lore. Two further companies of archers have been formed. Despite the constant invasions none of our archer companies have been lost. A company of brave pioneers is forming, talking of founding a new city to the east, perhaps in the Valley of the Horses itself.
I pray your indulgence My Majesty but I fear I am becoming too set fast in my ways. Maybe it is time for me to retire. Let new blood and new ideas guide you into the next millenium". Merenra prostrated himself fully onthe floor, awaiting the Qheen's reply.
The queen stood up, walked slowly towards Merenra flanked by her bodyguards. "Arise Merenra", she smiled, "your years of service have been noticed. Should you wish to stand aside I will release you from your office. I would not wish anyone to serve me unwilling."
@Pholk you make good points and I think that most of us forget that this new patch plays different too like odd of 70% are pretty much loosing odds. I do notice that a cat with 60% will do much better than a archer/axe with 70% odds. We are going to need a lot of WC's and I would think building HA's won't do us much good. (for need of hammers mostly)
And Pholk I admire someone that will take a chance rather than sitting in bush wondering if that would have worked. I think though one should have a backup plan in the event of failure. I do think we will need the gems and that spot is defensable. That is happy/coin problem solved but I think Pigswill has suggested to settle right on the horses which that kind of approach crossed my mind too since they can't pillage it then but do loose production/commerce.
At this point in the game with raging barbs its basically survival. Settling a city on top of the horses with a couple of CG archers will give us a chance of the city surviving long enough to start producing chariots. Looks like the river will be an unpillagable route to the capital so we can produce WCs in both cities. Once we've got half a dozen WCs we can start thinking about settling cities in proper locations.
I mentioned this already but the capitol is not on the river. We will need a road on the SE grass forest to connect it to the river. Suggest fortifying an archer there to stop them from pillaging the road. We do need the capitol to produce WC's as well.
Ok...looks like I'm up. However, hordes of family are still here, and it doesn't look like they're leaving any time soon. Don't expect turns tonight.
Fortunately, that gives Strauss time to sober up...if he gets started now.
Roster:
Patagonia - Still recovering from that bad dream.
Cabledawg - Mysteriously afraid of threes and ones.
Cosmichail - Makin' whoopie with the natives for a good cause.
Pholkhero - Really shouldn't have mocked the RNGod. That guy holds a grudge.
GreyFox - Riding the emotional rollercoaster all the way to the end.
Pigswill - ...what? Pigs will what? Inquiring minds want to know. >> JUST PLAYED << Zophos - Wondering where all these d-mn kids came from. >> UP NOW <<
Strauss - Drying out. >> ON DECK <<
Well, to be fair, I feel the mining of the hills is unnecessary, since growing will serve us better with the whip (as piswill(fly) pointed out). Instead, I decided to do a chop first, then pasture the pigs, in preparation of building the settler.The mines on hills can never beat the pigs in term of settler build time.
However, I did say in my report to "whip the settler on its last turn for hammer overflow to an archer, to escort the settler to its site). True, I had a warrior near the site, but warriors cannot protect anything.
But I like your chosen site, pholk. It is good, on hills, and still keep the gems.
Unfortunately, by losing the first chance, I'm afraid the window of opportunity for us to slip out a settler is getting exceedingly narrower ....
I see what you are saying but again the pasture/farm only lasted a short time whereas a mine is more defensable on a hill. Now both pasture/farm aren't there anymore so it helped on your turn but not at all on the long term which we need to consider as well.
I don't know but I think whipping is only good for very food rich cities which ours is but without improvements really isn't. Now city growth isn't that fast so what would be better long term having the ability to build soldiers fast without whipping or whipping and waiting 5-6 turns for growth and unhappy citizen. Just a difference of looking at it and we will see the end result I suppose. I played a similiar map on my own and have to say it's going to be tough again as once you get in the ad's the AI take over from the barbs giving you no ability to break out and weaken them. They only get stronger and you are on the defensive constantly which is no good. We need to alter that and again the coinbleed goes thru the roof/science comes to a standstill and before you know you are up against longbow and eventually maces with swords/axes. Need to break old habits if you ask me this new patch demands it.
We will have a city of 5 with all that whipping and AI capitol like 14-17 and how do you compete with four of those. New approach is needed and is why I am experimenting with different ideas on to play on monarch now.
uh-huh, if things go according to my plan, we would never had lose the pigs ... charriots would be there to take care of things. But things never go according to plan ...
You have a point on mined hills are easier to defend, but I usually don't go for mines this early ... how much is a mine? 3 hammers? It takes 15 turns to match a whip hammer ... exactly the same time it takes for whipping penalty to subside. Do the maths and you will find that whipping is more worthwhile on the long run.
As I say, we missed the first opportunity to connect the horse, and it is going get very tough from here on. We now have to bring 3 archers at least to slip past the barbs to reach the site ... and then 2 more archers to protect the worker ...
hopefully we will produce our charriot just in time for the first barb axe ... else prepare to think of another plot to continue the story in another thread ...
Plains mine is 4 hammers and two of those get you archers pretty quick. 16hx3=48 hammers too. I don't disagree with whipping just that capitol is not food rich enough unless everything is worked especially pigs but with raging barbs and they will rage alright will be tricky to keep. Pholk's last save showed 12 food total with 6 food being used. Growth in 6 turns. Now if this was Kyoto from SGOTM02 that one you could whip constantly and citizens would bounce back in 1 or 2 turns. That's a whippable city. Ours is whippable but if only every 15 turns and growth ever 6 turns and then that changes as each citizen is added depending what they are working it would seem better in these circumstances to have the mine first and maybe even chop a bit. We have a ton of forest and whilst he's chopping easier to protect.
Also I play Ramesses so much that I forget Hatty is creative so that hill location where Pholk placed the city is good. I was thinking at the time about borders popping slow when I chose that site. At least the gems will help with happy and science if we ever get to do anything about it. I play a similiar scenario and I tells ya like man you have to keep building soldiers constantly to keep up with it. I had three cities pretty quick but I notice that AI isn't helping reducing the spawning barbs. I guess we need to do some fogbusting especially north of the city and west.
If plains hills mine is worth 4 hammers, it is worth 3 hammers without mine (but forested). I don't know what is the bg deal with or without a mine, since there is no resources on the hill. The pop can still work on the hill without a mine. The difference is just 1 hammer, 25%. Whereas the pasture of the pigs is a 100% boost. See where that maths lead me to?
edit: I was wrong ... pls ignore above.
But enough said ... what's done is done. Now let's concentrate on getting back the lost city. We have to keep the archers building ... one thing I don't understand is we are building the settler now? Do we already have enough archers to protect him to the site? If not, might not be better to build archers first instead of settler first to allow city to grow?
I sure as well hope the AIs are having as much trouble with barbs ...
--
Bit more detail on my set. Corn got pillaged early on(1540);I could have defended it with an archer but while an archer can beat one barb it'll be injured and fall to the next one so lose an archer basically for nothing. Advantage of mined hill is that archer with geurilla promotions can survive multiple attacks in one turn. I whipped an archer when city was 1 turn from growth putting overflow into a settler (obviously requiring some mm to stop unhappy becoming a huge problem). We now have five archers and a warrior medic. We killed 11 barb warriors and 17 barb archers, not heavy but heavy enough.
We need chariots to get anywhere. To have a city and a horse pasture we basically need two units per tile. By putting city on top of pasture you can combine defenders getting city established earlier. The site is clearly non-optimal but I'd rather have a naff city soon that a good site later (coz you have to found the city, pasture the horses, road the horses before you start producing a chariot; meanwhile fending off axes).
The golden-haired queen turns from the window. "Yes, Takako?"
"A captain of the city guards begs a moment of your time. He is...most insistent."
She sighs, then gestures with her hand. "Very well. Show him in." She turns back to the window with a frown creasing her forehead.
Takako bows and steps outside. A few minutes later, he returns with a tall, bronzed archer clad in light armor. Takako bows again as the archer drops to one knee and bows his head. "My queen, Captain Ichiro of the Guards."
Toshi turns to face him, a picture of regal serenity. "Arise, Ichiro. What news from the wars?"
The archer stands swiftly to attention, eyes fixed on the far wall. "The barbarians have been roaming, my queen, and the tribes of your enemies have sent archers to challenge us as well. Your Guards are few, and have faced many attacks." The ghost of a smile touches his lips. "But not so many as I feared."
"No?"
"My queen, our archers have been victorious in every engagement, destroying many enemy bands with few casualties themselves. Even better...our enemies have fought each other!"
A glint of interest sparks in the Golden General's eye, and her voice is tight. "Tell me more."
"You have received reports of the archers sent by the vile Washington? They marched to the very gates of the city. Our bowmen stood to battle, but no assault came. Instead, the enemy was attacked by the very barbarians that have so troubled us."
Toshi's spine straightens imperceptibly. "And the Persians?"
"Attacked before they even approached us. The new tribe - the 'Arabians' - have stayed away as well. The barbarians have lost many men, my queen, and the foreigners have largely retreated to lick their wounds. And this provides us an opportunity." He pauses to take a deep breath, and his gaze flicks briefly to her face. "I believe we can reclaim the Valley of the Horses."
The queen's eyes burn into him, and she nods for him to continue.
"With the enemy depleted, and our forces so experienced, I think we can hold the capitol and the mines with but one company of archers each. The remaining two can escort the settling party to the Valley...and settle the new city directly upon the horses' pastureland. It will be inefficient, having the beasts among the houses, but the same warriors may then defend your people and the horses."
Toshi's nostrils flare as she tests this idea. She turns and paces away from him to gaze out the window at the forests. "A risky plan, Captain. You would gamble our future on a roll of the dice?"
"If we wait, my queen, I fear our enemies will gather their forces, and we will be overrun in the end. A chance of failure is preferable to certain defeat." His eyes flicker to Toshi's back as she turns again to face him, her voice quickening.
"You speak wisely, Captain. And you shall have the honor of the command. Take the reserve company from the mines, and your own archers from the city, and claim that valley!"
The ghost of a smile returns, and Ichiro bows from the waist. "Yes, my queen."
----
"My queen?"
The golden-haired queen turns from the window. "Yes, Takako?"
"A message from Ichiro has arrived. Look to the courtyard."
She steps to the other wall and throws open the curtains. Down below, a single magnificent horse stands patiently in the center of a circle of gawking palace servants. The queen smiles broadly. "They have succeeded."
Takako holds a scroll of papyrus out to her. "He reports that they have collected the horses and are beginning to train them."
"Bring my scribes. The new city shall be renamed 'Ichiro's Hope' to honor our brave Captain. And send the workers forth to construct a road, that we may bring Ichiro's wonderful beasts to our warriors as well."
"It shall be done, my queen."
----
Well...I've had some success in my 20 turns. Let's hope it's not too little, too late.
I had to basically hunker down in the capital for the first ten turns, while a stream of barbs came at us from all sides, including a number of Axes. Washington sent a stack of four archers, Cyrus sent two, and Saladin showed up with one as well. However, we were lucky in a number of ways. First, the top archer in town became CG3, and typically fought off the barbs without taking damage after that. Same with the Top archer on the mine ('cept he's Guerrila 3 - gotta love that promo). And a number of barbs suicided themselves onto archers from enemy tribes, wounding them in the process.
This gave us a window. I actually moved the archer pair out once and had to retreat in the face of a number of barbs. I tried again on...turn 11. The plan was: (a) move both archers onto the flood plain, (b) move both archers onto the hill, and have the Settler join them, and (c) move the trio onto the horses and settle. Worked like a charm (well, the archers had to fight off a barb or two), and Ichiro's Hope was established in 790 BC.
Started a War Chariot right away. Takes forever, but it'll go much faster when the pop increases. The capital built nothing but archers. The Stable has been on hold since my inherited turn.
I didn't lose a single unit during the set. Me 18 (including 5 axes), everyone else 0. Check the log - many of the combats (especially in the city) has us taking no damage. The medic did have to venture out to the mine a time or two, though.
Lastly, I took a brand-new archer from the city, and attacked Sal's archer in the woods SE of town. We won, and the Worker finally ventured forth to build a road there to connect us to the river. The road completed on the next-to-last turn of my set, and we now have HORSES IN THE CAPITAL!!! The archer has a promo coming, which I have not yet used. I'd suggest taking Woodsman I and leaving the forest there, to defend the road and give us another hammer-producing square to work.
The Worker also has not been moved in the save, but I don't have a spare Archer to protect him. The attacks have slacked off a bit, but we have no idea what's over the horizon. And the horizon is pretty close. I want to get a few mre military units together, then I'll start feeling safer.
I left the whip alone during the set, too, because I really wanted to have it available to whip a Chariot or two. I'd suggest whipping the Archer in the capital in a turn or two, and putting the overflow into our first War Chariot - ought to be able to get a new archer and WC - i.e. a worker escort and a roving barb killer - in about 4 turns that way.
The current empire:
And finally...I apologize for the delay in getting this done. Blame family, holidays, travel, and CFC going down for maintenance last night.
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We need more archers and more settlers. IF we can get those horses online quickly, our WCs should take care of the barb problems for a good time to come. Also, i would forego pasturing the pigs until the barbs are less of a problem and focus on farming those FPs and minign those hills for now. 
