DMI VII - Team BtS

[pawelo]

Grrr, I'm pretty unsatisfied of how it is going on but at this stage we have no other choice but continue the killing off.

Some initial scouting prooved that there was no way going for Heliopolis without the siege. Therefore the attack on this city had to be postponed.

I have whipped some courthouses to get them asap - Memphis, Alex and further Thebes.

The latter quit the revolting state just to get it back a few turns later.
Hatty send some small stacks - we got one mace, one cat, one xbow and an axe killed in those operations.

So the operations are moving painfully forward - see the last pic.

On the other hand, Izzy dropped by and asked to DoW Kublai. for this, still I got a tech trade for our Philo:



Furthermore, I met the biggest world power - Louis XIV - he has almost twice our score and came back to extort one of our pigs. Gave it to him and he is cautious right now - WHEOOH .
I haven't trade him the Philo - no need to push his power even more up.

Now the war situation - I think this stack should manage it:



I think once Heliopolis is down, it will be pretty downhill. This war is one of the PITAiest things I've ever had...
In hindsight I wonder if we did the right stuff in the beginning - warring Hatty instead of peacenik developpement in the south of our continent...

Best wishes to the next player. Be brave.

 

[r_rolo1]

I agree that this war took much longer than desired, but it was necessary: hatty would outrun us easily to the good lands in the south ( she was already doing that when we dowed ) and we would be forced to do a uphill fight just to get space. The other teams let hatty more loose, but they are counting with cossacks for the military push ( and they didn't had Oracle BIADL in turn 61 )

Enough ranting... Bindamel , you're up

 

[Bindamel]

See it, will play most likely Saturday.

Short term is finish Hatty, then health of economy/expansion, I presume.

Any thoughts on long term strategy? Are we heading to space? Do we want to consider certain friendships? We have been saying no to a lot of folks lately.

 

[Bindamel]

We met Huanya Capac early in the turnset. He has the Pyramids and the wonder that grants the religious techs. He is in UniSuff, Free Religion, and Mercantilism (which means he has Banking).

Hatty had a cartload of units still. We are equal in power even now. Our units and hers in Pi-Ramesses are shown below. We do have some reinforcements, mostly cats, heading north. There's also a screenshot of Giza, which isn't so bad.

I have a spy nearly at Giza; I recommend counterespionage. She's getting a little frisky:

She will accept peace for theology, her map, and all her gold, at least. You can see the forces in the North. She is currently researching Gunpowder and has Guilds!

Here is the turn-by-turn battle of Heliopolis. It was very messy.I did lose one of the GGs in the fight with Hatty, at over 95% odds. It was a good sacrifice, as it was that or give her an opportunity to reinforce the city. I also lost another 99% fight, but there were a lot of fights this time, so not entirely unexpected.

I made this trade (with Engineering mostly researched):

I know there was some hesitation about trading, but we're way behind technologically. I researched Music, as it leads to MT and has trade value.

I traded it to Isabella and got Paper. I can get Optics from Louis for Music and my map, but didn't do it yet. If we're thinking peace with Hatty, we need to consider what we can get from her. At least two civs have Paper and Philosophy, which means they just need Education to open up Liberalism. I think the best we can hope for is Liberalism to get Nationalism. We have a GS pop in about 9 turns. If we start Education now, the boost from the scientist will hopefully get us there first (I think I left Optics up, but there are no beakers in it.)

On that note, please don't fire the scientists in Memphis. The city has little value for commerce or production, but can support the two scientists, and we're Philosophical!

We're suffering a bit from lack of religion. I'd love to be Jewish, with Isabella and Kublai as friends (they're +8 with each other, even though they've been to war with each other!), but we don't currently have a Jewish city. Once we hit Liberalism, we probably just need to go FR.

I settled Rostov late in the turnset, during a brief happy time when I though Hatty was almost done (before I saw the troops in Pi-R). I'd like to put the Heroic Epic in Rostov. It's growing quickly, and will be an uber unit city. I settled our most recent great general there. On that note, I think we're seriously suffering from non-specialization of cities. Where should we put the National Epic? Oxford is often in the capital, but our capital is actually better for hammers than commerce.

In other news, I was able to irrigate the northern corn, but with units stretched thin and the tile that needs to be farmed on Hatty's borders, I was unable to irrigate the southern corn. The workers are there in the city, ready to go, though.


If I'm not mistaken, Refar is up!

 

[Refar]

Yes i think too me might be up. I will play somewhere tomorrow (Sunday) unless someone says that i am not Unfortunately i cant comment on the game just yet, as i am not on my Civ-able computer.

 

[Refar]

Hatty's teching Gunpowder Good thing is - nothing upgrade to Mukets, so meh.
I will try to take Pi-Rameses - not sure how, right now, but there are some siege reinforcements underway... - I hope she will be willing to give us Guilds for peace then - now its just Optics.

Her last city will not harm us much - actually it might even be convinient - better she collects those "Close boarder Tensions" with Wash, than us.

-----

I think liberalism is not doable - Huyana has Education and Philo. The AI is dumb, but not dumb enought not tech Liberalism now.

I will still set research on Education. If we can Bulb it before HC has Lib, we should be able to trade it arond nicely. In our tech situration (uhm... it's rather absence of tech sitation ) we need to fokus on techs that are tradeable...

 

[Refar]

Uh... I overlooked that my time was up, so i made one turn too much.

Turns 220 - 231 / 1550AD-1605AD

Trun 220: - Set some Thebes + Elephantine to Maces, planning to whip away the "Yearn to Join Motherland"-Whiners.
- Whip Monument in Rostov and Mace is St.Peter. Stack some Whip- in St.Peter but we need troops.

Turn 221: - Wash builds Himself the Taj-Mahal.
- Hatty Suicides a Catapult on our Reinforcements. Great... Now the Mace is Injured down to 50%...
- We Kill Hatty's Horsearcher in the Field.

Turn 222: - Infiltrators Destroy Hindu Monastery in Memphis (Build in Process...)

Turn 223: - A War Chariot out of Pi-Rameses Moves Towards Thebes. We kill the jerk with a Spear.

Diplo
We can't keep pissing off Everyone and his dog.
- Louis, Huyana and Kublai are all Friendly/Pleased among each other. Everyone but Hatty hates Wash. Kublai and Huyana hate us, but lets try to alt least stay at good terms with Louis, while trying to improve things with HC. The relations with Kublai are beyond beeing possible to salvage. So...

- No more Trading with Wash. He is closet than the others, but he's alone + our boarder is short. I close borders with him. Doing it before someone asks at least does not gain us "Stopped trading -1".
- Trade Music to Louis for Drama and some Gold for deficit Research. Rising him to pleased btw. I really think we should try to keep it that way.
- Open Boarders with Louis. Sell our Clams to Louis for 14 GPT. It's our only Clams, but we ca do not have any Helath trouble right now. 14 GPT + Diplo with Louis are worth it.
- Sell our Wheat to Huyana for 11 GPT. Is our only Wheat as well, but see Clams. Also allows us to put the slider at 40% so we our research makes some progress again.
- Trade Crab (from Helipolis - 2 or 3 turns later) to Kublai for 11 GPT and hopefully some "Provided Ressources" diplo +. (Tho i think our relation with Kublai can not be slavaged).

Turn 224: - With some reinforcements having arrived, we attack Pi-Rameses. The defenses almost make me but no way around, so lets get over with it.

Spoiler :

- 5 Cats die on the top Longbow witohut even injuring him. (I know it was the same Jerk, because everyone else got Collateral in the first battle). Win with the Warlord CRIII at 90%. The odds for the other units are terrible and not going to get really better. Suicide the rest of the Siege (No Survivors ) before going in with Maces at around 60%. Surprisingly they all win. Loose a Sword at 65% at some point and take the city.

Spoiler :

- With the new source of silver our WW- trouble is eased up a bit. As soon as the Boarders of Pi-Rameses expand to take the second silver, we should trade it to someone - perhaps replacing one of the GPT deals to get back our health ressources.
- Speaking of which... Heliopolis expanded boarders grabing the Crab. Trade to Kublai as mentioned above.
- Hatty is Not Willing to give Guilds for Peace yet.
- Also Note, how Giza is not her Capital yet. She Got another City[s?] somewhere.

Turn 225: - We took 4 Workers in Pi-Rameses (Hatty's Settlers converted). Group them in pairs and start working.

Turn 226: - Christianity spreads to us. Great...

Turn 227:
Turn 228: - Kill Hatty's Mace lurking outside of St.Peter. Finally.

Turn 229: - Memphis Pops GS. He would pop about 50% of Education. I wait a bit - if our pop grows we get more out of him, and we need to put some beakers in Edu anyway.

Turn 230: - Move towars Giza.

Turn 231: - Start bombarding Giza.
- Notice that i am one turn over time... ooops.

Notes
Tech situation
- HC teched Liberalism at some point - i did not see the Message, but somewhere around turn 223 - 224 it disappeared from his "Can Research" List.
- Despite Everyone beeing at different religions / hating each other the AI does techtrade like crazy.
- We should Pop Edu with the GS in 5 or 6 turns (with higher pop he will give us sime more beakers)
- After we got Edu we should techwhore it around for what ever we can get for it. Liberalism is gone, 2 AI's have Edu already. If we dont techwhore it, they will do.
- Sell it to Louis and Izzy first. Then Hatty (if at peace/willing to trade). If has to be to Wash as well - tho this will give us another bunsh of "Traded with Worst Enemy"
War
- We have enought troops to take Giza. I even managed to field some Siege again, despite loosing a big pile of Cats at Pi. Still bombarding takes a looooong time against Walls.
- I am not sure if we should take it anyway - right now she's a Buffer between us and Wash...
- Taking Giza will not get us rid of the "Yearn to Join Motherland" jerks, as Hatty has more cities somewhere. (Giza is not Capital yet)
Trade
- Revisit our deal with Loius, Kublai and HC at some point - perhaps swaping one of them to silver to get our Health ressources back.
After War
- We need too improve economy.
- We need to settle the free land to the S before someone else does. We don't want a City from Louis or - worse - HC popping out there...
- I think it is time to leave Slavery behind - we need population.
- We must decide on city specialization and build up some Infrastructure accordingly.
- We have a couple of Ok'ish production sites (St.Peter, Novgorod, Rostov in near future) those should make troops to keep our power rating from droping completely.
- Moskow looks like ggod candidate for Science.
- Memphis and Alexandria should run Specialists - perhaps more than just two, if we switch to Caste System.


The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/57778/DMI_VII_AD-1605.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok , this means I'm up, isn't it?

I haven't checked the save, but it looks like Refar hitted the nail. We simply don't have any kind of interest of continuing this war, as our AI friends are rocketing out of sight ( I simply hate capac.... ). So I propose peace, rebuilding and Rexing. Caste is ok ( even if only to get rid of those slave revolts )

About diplo: maybe we should try to make wash the new beating punch bag of the world.... if the AI is fighting they are not teching so much

About victory.... Do we have the complete map now? If we have, do we have some colony bearing able islands? We could still win by diplo that way ( and BTW showing a BtS feature, a thing that we haven't done lately )

 

[Bindamel]

I would take Giza first, as it should be trivial still, hopefully.

Saint Petersburg is hybridized, as it has some maturing cottages as well as decent production. I'm reemphasizing my vote for the HE in Rostov.

What patch is everyone running? I'm guessing Refar is running Bhruics, because I could not get more than 6 gpt offered for resource trades, which I think is one of the issues with 3.13. I don't run Bhruics because I have to play with the files to do HoF games.

 

[r_rolo1]

I'm using Bhruics 1.09.... I think that atleast pawelo is using Bhruic's as well

 

[Refar]

We have the troops to take Giza i think - 3 Trebs / 2 Cats and about 10 Maces - tho it will take a couple of turns to take down the defensive bonus (our spy got himself caught instantly after arrving there - i guess he used his russian passport at the entry checkpoint). Hatty revolted to CS shortly, so the worst thing to happen is - she builds one more unit there...

Our cities are mostly in order due to the Siver from PI and 10% Culture slider (i built one or 2 theatres too) so we can afford continuing the war for the couple of turns it will take...

Where i am not 100% sure is, if we really want to take that city. Right now she's buffering us from Wash, her tech speed is down to crawl (so i guess it's only one more city) and taking Giza will not help dealing with "Motherland Yearn'ers"

-----

Making Wash the new punching bag was my idea as well. Should be fairly easy, as every one dislikes him. He's still at War with Kublai. The slight problem is - we dont have nothing to bribe a AI into a war with him...

-----

Did not got a complete map - the only trade - besides ressources - i was able to do was with Louis and i had to choose between some extra cash or his maps. At that point cash seemed better...

-----

Patch - yes i am running Bhruics. Was unaware it affects the Value of ressources in trades.

 

[Ad Hoc]

Making Wash the new punching bag was my idea as well. Should be fairly easy, as every one dislikes him. He's still at War with Kublai. The slight problem is - we dont have nothing to bribe a AI into a war with him...

Do we still get the mutual struggle diplo bonus' with KK if we just declare war on Wash

Patch - yes i am running Bhruics. Was unaware it affects the Value of ressources in trades.

i'm in v1.11 of bhurics and i didn't realise it had the above effect.

And just to cheer us up something else i didn't know as found out by the one legged Oz

Team Vanilla has the unfortunate (for us) news that the latest patch of Vanilla (1.74) has nerfed our mighty Cossacks back to strength 15 from 18 , so it's not a true reflection of the might of Russia under (old) Vanilla. Still fun to play with though

 

[pawelo]

Using Bhruic's too.
Sorry to drop by only for a short while - my work kills me in the beginning of this week. Back to comment more asap.

 

[r_rolo1]

And just to cheer us up something else i didn't know as found out by the one legged Oz

Team Vanilla has the unfortunate (for us) news that the latest patch of Vanilla (1.74) has nerfed our mighty Cossacks back to strength 15 from 18 , so it's not a true reflection of the might of Russia under (old) Vanilla. Still fun to play with though

Oh, I'm crying on the inside ( no, I'm not ... ). Too bad for them ,though.

 

[r_rolo1]

Started by capturing Giza ( hesitaded a litte here... but the fear of Hatty vassalising to someone + cultural pressure made my decision )... All trebs died, but the rest of the units made their day

Spoiler :

As we hadn't much more to grab from Hatty, I decided to go peace... Unfortunately couldn't rip Natio

Spoiler :

And the world as we know it:

Spoiler :

Settled our GS in capitol... This will be a long game and a settled GS in a academy city worths more than the bulb in the long run.

Spoiler :

And then the inevitable vassalization of Hatty happened... for once this is a good thing

Spoiler :

Wash with this move earned a -1 with everyone and increased maintenance to gain a 1 city vassal..... Noob.

Izzy knows a few jokes... I'm so scared of KK vassals

Spoiler :

For dotmapping proposes , here is the area between us and Louis... not sure how updated is this

Spoiler :

Log

Spoiler :

Logging by BUG Mod 2.11 (BtS 3.13)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 231/460 (1605 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:30:33]
Rostov grows: 5

IBT:

Turn 232/460 (1610 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:34:21]
Whip anger has decreased in Elephantine
St. Petersburg finishes: Catapult
Novgorod grows: 6
Heliopolis finishes: Library

IBT:
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) towards Washington(America), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 233/460 (1615 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:37:07]
St. Petersburg begins: Theatre (4 turns)
Heliopolis begins: Theatre (7 turns)
Trebuchet promoted: City Raider I
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Trebuchet loses to: Egyptian Longbowman (2.16/6) (Prob Victory: 20.3%)
Trebuchet promoted: City Raider I
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Trebuchet loses to: Egyptian Maceman (2.64/8) (Prob Victory: 14.3%)
Trebuchet promoted: City Raider I
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Trebuchet loses to: Egyptian Maceman (5.68/8) (Prob Victory: 18.6%)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Michiel de Ruyter (Maceman) defeats (0.40/8): Egyptian Maceman (Prob Victory: 87.5%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Maceman 3 of St. Petersburg (Maceman) defeats (5.28/8): Egyptian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Maceman 5 of St. Petersburg (Maceman) defeats (5.44/8): Egyptian Swordsman (Prob Victory: 98.8%)
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Maceman defeats (6.24/8): Egyptian Maceman (Prob Victory: 96.7%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Giza, Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Egyptian Maceman (Prob Victory: 98.3%)
Buddhism has spread: Giza
Captured Giza (Hatshepsut)
Giza begins: Theatre (51 turns)
DMI VII(Russia) and Hatshepsut(Egypt) have signed a peace treaty
Tech learned: Guilds
St. Petersburg begins: Courthouse (9 turns)
A Mine was built near Rostov
Novgorod begins: Forge (10 turns)
Moscow grows: 8
Alexandria grows: 7
Heliopolis grows: 5
Rostov grows: 6

IBT:
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) and Washington(America) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) towards DMI VII(Russia), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards DMI VII(Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 234/460 (1620 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:45:37]
Pi-Ramesses begins: Theatre (10 turns)
Pi-Ramesses begins: Harbor (20 turns)
Pi-Ramesses begins: Harbor (1 turns)
Pi-Ramesses begins: Courthouse (115 turns)
The whip was applied in Pi-Ramesses
Novgorod finishes: Longbowman
Pi-Ramesses finishes: Theatre

IBT:
Hatshepsut becomes a Vassal State of Washington
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 235/460 (1625 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:48:02]
A Farm was built near St. Petersburg
A Farm was built near Alexandria
A Farm was built
Longbowman 1 of Novgorod (Longbowman) promoted: City Garrison I
Elephantine's borders expand
Thebes grows: 6
Pi-Ramesses finishes: Harbor

IBT:
State Religion Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) from 'Buddhism' to 'Judaism'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Hatshepsut(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Hatshepsut(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Hatshepsut(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Despotism'

Turn 236/460 (1630 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:49:48]
Alexandria begins: Theatre (6 turns)
Alexandria begins: Grocer (17 turns)
St. Petersburg grows: 7
Alexandria grows: 8
Alexandria finishes: Market
Pi-Ramesses's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'

Turn 237/460 (1635 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:51:49]
A Cottage was built near Alexandria
Elephantine begins: Theatre (9 turns)
Whip anger has decreased in Moscow
Moscow finishes: Forge
Thebes finishes: Library
Heliopolis grows: 6
Rostov grows: 7

IBT:
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards DMI VII(Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Theocracy' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 238/460 (1640 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:53:42]
Moscow begins: Grocer (8 turns)
Thebes begins: Harbor (3 turns)
A Farm was built near Elephantine
Whip anger has decreased in St. Petersburg
Whip anger has decreased in Heliopolis
Alexandria grows: 9
Memphis grows: 5
Thebes grows: 7

IBT:

Turn 239/460 (1645 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:54:51]
Giza begins: Granary (3 turns)
The whip was applied in Giza
Thebes finishes: Harbor
Heliopolis finishes: Theatre
Giza finishes: Theatre

IBT:
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards DMI VII(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 240/460 (1650 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:56:36]
Thebes begins: Theatre (3 turns)
Heliopolis begins: Courthouse (18 turns)
A Farm was built near Elephantine
Moscow grows: 9
St. Petersburg grows: 8
St. Petersburg finishes: Courthouse
Memphis's borders expand
Elephantine grows: 4
Heliopolis grows: 7
Rostov grows: 8
Rostov finishes: Forge
Giza's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards DMI VII(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 241/460 (1655 AD) [15-Jan-2008 22:58:14]
Reminder: Finish....
St. Petersburg begins: Grocer (10 turns)
Rostov begins: Courthouse (7 turns)

Regards

We're in the breaking point of the game.... We're lagging far behind the rest techwise, but IMHO that is not a big deal ( had recovered from far worse in the LHCs ). The big deal is what are we going to do...

We have a lot good land to settle that we negleted because of the hatty wars and crippled finances... we need to choose between rexing more or recover finances ASAP ( IMHO the first... land is power )....

But our big problem is the sheer size of HC and Louis... Even if we rex we'll be roughly of their size and they are miles away from us tech wise and we can't even discard a possible cultural victory ( Louis loves them... ). The ideal would be making them to war eachother, but without bribes this will be hard... Maybe DP with louis and piss HC to dow us would work, but it is quite a wild card to play.

But for now the below post of refar is right... OR, maybe no slavery ,ReX and rebuild. And trying not to piss much of people ATM ( we can defend form Wash side easily ( mountaints protect us ) but a war now would be a PITA )

 

[Refar]

Uh... Those guys are really huge...

We need to settle the land we can get asap. We can dump a couple of really good cities there.

Taking that barb city on the bottleneck sounds good in theory, tho i dont think we can get there before louis does. Perhaps send some troops + a settler - if we fail to take the city, we can dump the settler on the bottleneck a bit N of it...

Perahps switch to OR. We have a LOT of Infrastructure upcomming...

I think the most important thing is - no more whipping - we need population for the economy to come out of that big hole we are in.

 

[r_rolo1]

Full report added...

 

[Refar]

On a second thought... Perhaps just change to OR and stay in Slavery for a while after all.

We will settle a couple of new villages, those will be smallish - optimal whipping size - and needing lots of building to get going...

I still say no whipping in our core cities...

 

[Trieste]

got it, i'll take a look and comment in a few hours

 

[Trieste]

I don't know how those few hours turned into over a day...

OR and a land grab sounds great, priority for new cities will be block Louie>incense>dyes> anything else.
Capac is going for cultural too if I'm not mistaken- he has lots of culture and 6 religions(including 2 holy cities ) in each of his big 3.

Spoiler :