Do gold coins and scrolls teleport?

[akrontim]

Curious how, some objects in the game (equipment) stick with whomever discovered them, but then other objects (anything resulting from a goodie hut or a lair - like the titled gold) automatically end up back in... Wherever gold and research is stored. Even if the discover-er is continents away. Something doesn't jive here - it's inconsistent how a gold coin (or other results that describe objects) just gets whisked away, but a rod of the winds can't. I mean, why can't it? I've sacrificed scouts before to pop a lair, with a beastie right next to me, knowing that there's a decent chance i'll get some cash that gets transported before the baddies descend - probably in an attempt to rob my now pennyless scout.

Propose having the discovered gold, jewels, scrolls, etc appear as equipment that must be cashed in at the nearest owned city. Or at least one that is connected to a trade route. Offset should be better returns from these type results to offset the incremental risk.

 

[Emptiness]

Gold and research don't teleport, their location is abstracted. Having to group up research manually before techs could be purchased would be beyond tedious. The same goes for gold; can you imagine having to have your army carry around the gold that is required to pay the unit maintenance costs they incur? I can't imagine wanting to play that game.

This abstration isn't specific to FfH2. Base Civ employs it as well.

The location of magic items, however, is not abstracted. It wouldn't make much sense for their locations to be abstracted. One gold coin is just like another, but Orthus' Axe is very special among axes. Having to keep track of individual gold would be a waste of time, because there's so much of it. There's only a few magic items in the game, and their effect is much greater that any single gold coin.

Tracking the rewards from tribal villages, and requiring that those arrive safely back at the discoverer's empire, would be more realistic. As you suggested, maybe tribal villages (and lairs) could drop an item (called "Discovery", or somesuch), which can be picked up and carried. Once in a city the unit carrying it can use the ability it grants to activate the reward (at which point the actual reward of gold, tech, or whatever is determined).

I doubt that change will make it into base FfH2, but maybe someone might try it in a modmod sometime.

 

[akrontim]

I get the abstration. You got exacty where I was describing with the bottom part.

 

[WCH]

Would make hawks very useful... let them carry such things back to base.

 

[Tielby]

Propose having the discovered gold, jewels, scrolls, etc appear as equipment that must be cashed in at the nearest owned city. [...] Offset should be better returns from these type results to offset the incremental risk.

This is how the original Colonization (I don't know about the recent incarnation) dealt with discoveries of very large caches of gold (usually one of the "seven cities"). The discovery spawned something like a "Supplies" unit, which had to actually be moved to a galley (the only ship large enough) and transported safely back to your motherland. It was appropriate and workable.

 

[Breunor]

I've always been wary about trying to incorporate these kinds of 'realistic' rules in some aspect of Civ IV (FfH really is pretty much the same) while so many aspects of the game are abstracted to begin with. Emptiness has gone through some of the issues here.

For instance, a tribal villages' outcome should be 'brought back' before they are used - what about all of the other information in the game? My caravel discovers another civilization and I can trade techs immediately; I can use any traded tech immediately, I don't have to 'carry it' back across the ocean. Wouldn't having a different rule for a tribal village be inconsistent? Next to the tribal village, my scout finds another Civ - but the information about the other Civ is known to me immediately, it does not have to be brought back. Does it make sense that the information from the tribal village has to be brought back but the information about the enemy Civ is known immediately?

Other examples - with astronomy I can open trade immediately even though it took my ship 40 years to cross the ocean. When one unit sees another civilizations' units, should every unit you control be able to act on it? That is, my hawk across the ocean sees the enemy cities, but I can immediately change my production to act on the information. My chariot attacks the town, dies, but sees what is there - why can my other units attack knowning what is in the city even though the unit died (and there wouldn't have been time to get the information back)?

Untimately, I don't think rules to bring 'realism' to a game with so much abstraction makes sense, it only highlights that some areas have more realism and others have too little. I think adapting these rules should be based on whether it makes the game better as long as the level of abstraction is consistent with the rest of the game's.

But the tribal village rule is is from the original Civ IV. I wouldn't advocate adding rules to bring back returns from villages when we have rules like building Mount Rushmore reduces war weariness. And please don't come back saying that the Mount Rushmore wonder is a 'bad' rule because it is unrealistic - it is a good rule because it makes the game better, as a useful needed item at the time it is available.

I think the propsoed rule change would just slow the game down for little gain in FfH. It is hard enough to scout in FfH and some people find scouts are hard to justify. Forcing their discoveries to be carried back would make scouts even less useful. At least that's my .02.


Best wishes,

Breunor