Do You Have a Right to be Treated Like a Criminal?

Personally, I'd generally prefer NOT to be tried before a jury. I'd want someone who understand "beyond reasonable doubt" and "constitutional rights" to determine the facts, and that's way more of a flip of the coin with jury than with judges.

The problem with dropping criminal and going to civil isn't the jury. It's the part where suddenly you don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt anymore. Sneaky way for the state to get someone "condemned" when they know they don't have enough proof for a criminal condemnation.
 
Personally, I'd generally prefer NOT to be tried before a jury. I'd want someone who understand "beyond reasonable doubt" and "constitutional rights" to determine the facts, and that's way more of a flip of the coin with jury than with judges.

This sort of depends upon the facts of the case and the potential biases of the jury.

The problem with dropping criminal and going to civil isn't the jury. It's the part where suddenly you don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt anymore. Sneaky way for the state to get someone "condemned" when they know they don't have enough proof for a criminal condemnation.

Well, you can't get condemned to anything worse than a $5,000 fine, and in most cases the fine is limited further by statute. Limiting the damage isn't necessarily a bad deal in return for settling for preponderance of the evidence as the burden of proof. Again, it depends on the case.
 
The facts of the case may help, yes, and there may be situation where you can just win a jury over. But on the whole, in most cases I'd go judge alone. And yes, of course the lowered fine and such help, as well as the absence of a criminal condemnation against you.

I was more highlighting that as far as downsides go, losing proof beyond reasonable doubt is way bigger than losing the jury (which may not be a downside at all)
 
I was more highlighting that as far as downsides go, losing proof beyond reasonable doubt is way bigger than losing the jury (which may not be a downside at all)

I'm just not sure that I agree in 100% of cases. If the jury's bias is sufficiently pro-you and anti-prosecution, changing the legal standard doesn't matter because it gets overridden by the bias.

I mean, if somebody burglarized Martin Shkreli's home in order to fund their spouse's Daraprim treatment and they were caught red-handed, rolling double-or-nothing on jury sympathy would seem to be the way to go. The argument is pretty straightforward: his company is stealing from me, the government is not protecting me, and so I'm stealing from him because I can't rely on the government for protection and I'm therefore forced to.
 
Yeah, but but is...rather outside the likely sort of trial.

In the overwhelming bulk of cases, losing proof beyond reasonable doubt is way bigger than losing trial by jury.
 
TV room...place where forty people decide communally what channel to watch. Some of the people in question believe in might makes right far more than democracy. I'm guessing you would not love it.

Food provided at designated meal times only. Must be in line before the doors open. May involve standing in said line for up to an hour or more. This may involve rain, wind, or sun. I'm guessing you would not love it.

Gym facilities adequate, though providing the only location that hosted more fights than the TV rooms. I'm guessing you would not love it.

Prison is a lot of things. Paradise ain't one of them.


Think Norwegian prisons, not American ones.
 
Think Norwegian prisons, not American ones.

Never been in a Norwegian prison. Or Norway for that matter. Even sight unseen, I'm still pretty confident you wouldn't like it.
 
Agreed, but the reverse is also "cheating" and seems to be what we have here. The state does not feel comfortable for whatever reason with pursuing criminal charges, despite the fact that criminal courts are totally loaded in favor of the state. So their solution should be "okay, drop the charges" not "hey, let's take a different angle on this and try civil court."

One thing should be noted in particular. You have a right to a defense by an attorney in criminal court and one will be provided. Defending yourself against a lawsuit, even if brought by the government, is your own problem. That's "cheating" right there, in a major way. A public defender may be no match for a prosecutor, but they are at least in the same general universe. NO ONE can compete with the limitless number of attorney hours that government can throw at a lawsuit should they be inclined.

It's a shame this post is probably going to get buried.
 
Never been in a Norwegian prison. Or Norway for that matter. Even sight unseen, I'm still pretty confident you wouldn't like it.

Just because you've never been somewhere doesn't give you a reason to remain ignorant about that place:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

This is a prison cell in Norway:

whfU5kJ.jpg
 
That looks almost like my grandfather's nursing home room.
 
Just because you've never been somewhere doesn't give you a reason to remain ignorant about that place:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

This is a prison cell in Norway:

In a prison where 115 out of Norway's 4000 inmates are housed.

Just because you've never been somewhere doesn't give you a reason to misrepresent what it is.

BTW, the interesting thing from the article is the astonishingly low recidivism rates for inmates coming out of that prison.
 
They still only have 4000 inmates for the whole country. That alone is very astonishing.

More:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T

4000 is a low number, but if you look at incarceration rate, in inmates per hundred thousand population, Norway has the highest in Scandinavia and looks fairly typical for Europe overall. England being twice as high notwithstanding.

Of course, the US being TEN TIMES as high may be making me think that 71 and say, 100 (France) are not that far apart. From our nosebleeding altitude the rest of the world looks like ants.
 
I can't think of a reason why you would want a jury trial, and the potential criminal charges that come along with it, over a reduction to a civil infraction, since there is so little risk of anything severe with a civil infraction other than a fine. You still get to plead your innocence in a civil infraction, albeit minus counsel, but you can hire a lawyer if you want. On the other hand even the most minor misdemeanor goes on your permanent criminal record, for example. Not so with a civil infraction, aka a speeding ticket.

So I can only see this desire for a "protest by jury trial" as the only reason you would ever feel "wronged" by this sort of thing. Tim's observation that you lose your right to court appointed counsel is true, and troubling in a way, but a competent court appointed counsel is going to counsel you against using the witness stand as your protest pulpit anyway. So really if you want to do your protest at your jury trial then you're going to need to fire your lawyer regardless!

This is also leaving out how incredibly overburdened our criminal justice system--and our public defenders--already are, such that I would actually sort of wish people do not waste valuable public defender resources or court time on meaningless "jury trial protests."
 
The first time I was in prison I though it was eerily similar to my elementary school. Same cinderblock walls painted in the same neutral tones. Same low, one story buildings. Same courtyard between buildings. Same asphalt basketball court. Different hoop height.

You left out the word "a", right? ..riiight?
 
I can't think of a reason why you would want a jury trial, and the potential criminal charges that come along with it, over a reduction to a civil infraction, since there is so little risk of anything severe with a civil infraction other than a fine.

This event was not the only Black Lives Matter protest to occur in Massachusetts around that time. In at least two other communities, demonstrators blocked off other roads. The treatment of the demonstrators has varied between the communities.

By seeking to address the original criminal charges against them, the demonstrators in Worcester (this case) may be seeking to effect greater change upon the system. Conceptually if the demonstrators still faced criminal proceedings, lost the case, appealed, and then won on first amendment grounds on appeal that would affect the proceedings in other communities as well as in future cases.

To put it more generally, if you're charged with a crime under a law you see as unconstitutional or otherwise impermissible, you have the right to protest that law and challenge its constitutionality on appeal. Not just facially, but as applied. But if you are never charged with that crime under the law then you cannot bring an as applied challenge because it was never applied to you. That leaves one with the option of a facial challenge, obviously more difficult to pursue.

In the light of separate but organized protests in other areas, removing the criminal charges from one group also removes that group's ability to assist the others through a resulting appeal.

Then of course there are also collateral concerns of increased and continued news coverage and the like as the cases travel through the appeals system.

While that strategy is not a great criminal defense strategy, it doesn't seem a wholly invalid civil rights litigation strategy.

Of course all of that presumes that there is a strategy here that is primarily geared towards effecting change in the law rather than utilizing the courtroom as a bully pulpit.
 
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