Do you really feel that the US way is right?

[Lefty Scaevola]

This and most other internet forums are not governments (democratic or otherwise) at all, they are conditional revocable licenses to use someone else's private property, unsupported by consideration (free, thus no contractual rights to users). You have here only what Thunderfall GENEROUSLY decides to share with you.

RE: Propaganda lies above on "TROLL"
A troll is a post intended more for the purpose of creating an angry reaction than for a useful discussion. Thunderfall does not appreciate posters trying to start emotional fights in his "second home" here. As for this thread, it is outside my moderator jurisdiction, therefore I have no duty to judge whether or not it is a troll, but my first response above, going directly to the questions presented should be indicative of my impression hereof. (Nor am I very good at detecting trolls anyway, since it is very hard to anger me on one of these forums; I thrive in a much more combative and cruel environment than that which you are so pleasently served here.)

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
(..)RE: Propaganda lies above on "TROLL"
A troll is a post intended more for the purpose of creating an angry reaction than for a useful discussion. Thunderfall does not appreciate posters trying to start emotional fights in his "second home" here. As for this thread it is outside my moderator jurisdiction, therefore I have no duty to judge whether or not it is a troll.

If you answer an question, is that a troll?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Juize

If you answer an question, is that a troll?

That depends on how inflamatory the answer is, although responses tend to get much more leeway in this regard that a thread starting troll post. Also because they are responding to and targeted against a particular poster, such answers more often violate the no flaming rule than the troll rule, and custom APPEARS to allow more flaming against a poster who trolls than against others. The boundries are not sharp, are learned by experience, and tend to move over time as traditions develope at each site. Recall that internet forums have only be around for faction of a human lifetime, and most sites, such as this one, a few years at most. Thus traditions and customs are still in the process of being formed through experience.

 

[amadeus]

You're all wrong.

We're a fundamentalist forum! If you don't like Civilization, and you don't like behaving like a civilized person, you're out!

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by scorch
Ok, before any of the mods get the wrong idea, this is NOT a US bashing thread, im just wondering some things.
the end.

This kind of veiled Nazism annoys me.

Why does everyone have bone to pick with the USA?
Think you are better? Feeling inferior?

Sonny, if you want to wonder some things, wonder at who has
intervened in the last 100 years to maintain your right to wonder
at things instead of being made into some human slave animal.

Wonder why you are still a free man!

Coz the Allies and the Yanks had enough care to challenge the dictators.
Hey! but you think it's just America wanting to be world ruler, eh?
A load of crap!

What would happen if we gave the despots a free hand?

But whatever the US does the rest of the world will pick fault,
usually without real reason...

I am sick of the USA being Demonized unfairly.
Before you troll a whole race of humans,
Look at your nation, is it without dirty laundry?

You may think the USA is fair game, but they are still people...
Before you pick on a whole race, remember where that thinking leads...NAZI SUPREMIST PHILOSOPHY!

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by rmsharpe

That's because we're (industrialized world) making technologically advanced products - cars, telephones, televisions, etc. China makes shoes because we make cars. If China made cars, there'd be no demand - because we already have them. Americans, though, simply don't want to make shoes.

Secondly, it's not our responsibility to be a watchdog for the rest of the world. China's government should be doing that, not us.

You're right. It isn't our responsibility - but it IS our responsibility to stop OUR corporations from selling in our country products forged with human blood.

I mean for Christ sakes... Poachers kill elephants for their ivory in Africa thereby depleting the species. However to crack down on this practice WE have banned ivory imports to our country. But we won't do the same with products made by slave labour?!

Apparently elephants are more important than people. Of course people here don't really see third world citizens as people - they're just nameless faceless animals to be used for our own financial gain.

As for making shoes... You honestly believe that nobody here wants to make shoes? Thats such a crock. Nobody here wants to work in an unsafe NIKE factory for $0.50 an hour for 16 hours while being deprived of even basic human rights. There is a difference. If NIKE opened a factory here to make shoes and paid about $13 per hour they'd have people lining up to apply for jobs. Of course this would cut WAY into their profit margin.

NIKE won't build shoes here because we have LABOUR laws... to protect the working class and to put restraints on the corporations that wish to exploit us...

So people that have money are greedy? I think you'd find more corruption in small business than in big. You steal ten dollars, who cares, steal ten million, someone's going to notice.

No not all people with money are greedy. I never once said that. However people who make money directly off of human suffering and misery ARE greedy and they deserve to rot in jail. Just like any other common thug.

It is not wrong. It keeps them fed, and it keeps me from paying up the rear end for a pair of shoes. It's not my responsibility to keep tabs on what's going on there.

Also, nobody wants to intentionally hurt their labor, it is bad for business.

If you honestly believe that there is nothing wrong wih slave labour in the third world (and our corporations profiting from it) then you are a cold heartless monster and I am wasting my time.

I hope you enjoy saving $30 on your shoes.

Where's Guatemala? West...

Care to tell me how they're blessed?

This is a stupid pointless semantic argument. When i said "blessed with western citizenship" I meant "blessed with citizenship in one of the western democracies". My point being that just because we happen to be born in the US or Canada does not mean that we have the right to exploit the world's poor. but hey.. whatever you believe I guess... I'm just an uninformed Liberal.

 

[CurtSibling]

The arguments here could go on forever!

But that's the thread owner's intention anyhow.

The bottom line is that the world is not perfect and to equalise all stratas of people would need some form of earth-globalisation,

But globalisation is a demonic concept to some...

So the problem will nver be solved!

I've said by two pence,

Continue arguing...

 

[ComradeDavo]

'I am sick of the USA being Demonized unfairly.
Before you troll a whole race of humans,
Look at your nation, is it without dirty laundry? '

The thing is in my view the USA is Demonized fairly. I except that your veiw is different and understand why but you do not except that my veiw is different and can't bring yourself to understand why. And I have great critism for my own country as well.

RedWolf - I completely agree with you.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
'I am sick of the USA being Demonized unfairly.
Before you troll a whole race of humans,
Look at your nation, is it without dirty laundry? '

The thing is in my view the USA is Demonized fairly. I except that your veiw is different and understand why but you do not except that my veiw is different and can't bring yourself to understand why. And I have great critism for my own country as well.

RedWolf - I completely agree with you.

Comrade Davo, Be calm!

I do not discount your opinion, in fact I welcome you for having one!

I get worried when I see race threads, nasty things get said.
(My post wasn't actually meaning you or Redwolf)

So boys, please don't take offence.

Redwolf, I don't mean you any insult. Carry on your discussion.
Davo, I would never try to squash your opinions, they are not unfounded.

Guys, don't get me wrong.
We all are just making our views,
That's why are free men.

 

[ComradeDavo]

no worries ENEMY ACE, I was just feeling in a particularily phisolphical mood right then.

'I do not discount your opinion, in fact I welcome you for having one! ' - feelings mutual

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
no worries ENEMY ACE, I was just feeling in a particularily phisolphical mood right then.

'I do not discount your opinion, in fact I welcome you for having one! ' - feelings mutual

Good call, ComradeDavo!

I Salute!

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Redwolf, I don't mean you any insult. Carry on your discussion.
Davo, I would never try to squash your opinions, they are not unfounded.

Curtsibling,

No offense taken. I too apologize ifi have offended.

Just in case I caused some people offense my intent was not to demonize the US... I am critisizing the first world establishment in general...

I'm glad we can debate AND all get along.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by RedWolf
You're right. It isn't our responsibility - but it IS our responsibility to stop OUR corporations from selling in our country products forged with human blood.

Be realistic, nobody in the U.S. is going to want to lower their standard of living to help some Somolian kid. I don't.

I mean for Christ sakes... Poachers kill elephants for their ivory in Africa thereby depleting the species. However to crack down on this practice WE have banned ivory imports to our country. But we won't do the same with products made by slave labour?!

Okay, if we do that, what's going to happen to the people that lose their jobs because some company closed down a factory in Mongolia? *Their* government doesn't give a flying f-you-know-what about them.

...people here don't really see third world citizens as people.

And what about their own governments? They see them as even less than that.

As for making shoes... You honestly believe that nobody here wants to make shoes? Thats such a crock. Nobody here wants to work in an unsafe NIKE factory for $0.50 an hour for 16 hours while being deprived of even basic human rights. There is a difference. If NIKE opened a factory here to make shoes and paid about $13 per hour they'd have people lining up to apply for jobs. Of course this would cut WAY into their profit margin.

And there is no doubt in my mind that you would do the same thing. It is not the company, it is the consumer. People (including myself) would rather save thirty bucks than waste it on international pottytraining.

NIKE won't build shoes here because we have LABOUR laws... to protect the working class and to put restraints on the corporations that wish to exploit us...

However people who make money directly off of human suffering and misery ARE greedy and they deserve to rot in jail. Just like any other common thug.

So are doctors thugs? People get hurt, doctors treat them. Doctors get paid. Do they belong in jail?

If you honestly believe that there is nothing wrong wih slave labour in the third world (and our corporations profiting from it) then you are a cold heartless monster and I am wasting my time.

I don't think it's "okay", but I don't think it is our responsibility.

I hope you enjoy saving $30 on your shoes.

And I hope you enjoy complaining to OUR government abuot someone ELSE's problem.

This is a stupid pointless semantic argument. When i said "blessed with western citizenship" I meant "blessed with citizenship in one of the western democracies". My point being that just because we happen to be born in the US or Canada does not mean that we have the right to exploit the world's poor. but hey.. whatever you believe I guess... I'm just an uninformed Liberal.

90% of the people living in Central America or South America live in a democracy.

And my final note, which you have dodged my point entirely, buy products that are made in America if you don't like it.

You'll be suprised at how reasonable some of the prices are, or would you rather be "heartless monster" and save your money?

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by rmsharpe


Be realistic, nobody in the U.S. is going to want to lower their standard of living to help some Somolian kid. I don't.

I know they don't. Which is exactly the point of my original post - that our standard of living is something we have due to the exploitation of the world's poor - and nobody here seems to actually give a ****. No wonder the disenfranchised people of the world fly planes into buildings.

Okay, if we do that, what's going to happen to the people that lose their jobs because some company closed down a factory in Mongolia? *Their* government doesn't give a flying f-you-know-what about them.

And what about their own governments? They see them as even less than that.

So your argument is that since their own government doesn't care about them then neither should we? We just have a free hand to expoit them however we wish? Once again: No wonder the disenfranchised of the world fly planes into buildings.

And there is no doubt in my mind that you would do the same thing. It is not the company, it is the consumer. People (including myself) would rather save thirty bucks than waste it on international pottytraining.

Personally... if buying all my products from places where they had labour laws like our own meant adding an extra 50% to those items... I would be willing to do so. So i could buy a pair of shoes once every 2 years instead of once every year... big deal if it meant that people didn't have to live in filthy poverty in order for me to have them. The decadent west would survive... we are spoiled by our standard of living anyway.

So are doctors thugs? People get hurt, doctors treat them. Doctors get paid. Do they belong in jail?

I can't believe I'm even dignifying this moronic point with an answer? You actually compare doctors to sweat shop owners!?
Thats absolutely ridiculous... Here's the distinction - Doctors HELP people by healing them and fixing their wound. Walmart makes billions of dollars by having their products made in unsafe sweatshops in the third world where people are overworked and often die from the conditions... See the difference?

I don't think it's "okay", but I don't think it is our responsibility.

Well you obviously DO think it's ok if the way you've supported the use of slave labour.

And my final note, which you have dodged my point entirely, buy products that are made in America if you don't like it.

You'll be suprised at how reasonable some of the prices are, or would you rather be "heartless monster" and save your money?

I do try whenever possible to buy either from America or Canada... that isn't always an option though.

 

[amadeus]

Care to tell me what you want done, then?

 

[scorch]

curt, you said something about nazism. Sorry i sounded like iwas generalizing all american people. What i am trying to point out to you is:

Do you feel that the american system is morally correct and the whole world would be better off being more like america?

Because i strongly disagree with some of it. What i really admire about America, is the patriotism, how everyone would die for their country (apparently). What i don't like, is that fact that peoples minds are influenced by the government, to think what they are doing is right.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

hmm, a little explanation on trolling is in order.

i have watched this thread from the begining, and find no problem with it.

Why?

Because it follows my guidelines, people are discussing matters, not making insulting and baseless accusations.

No nation or government is above critiscism, and if it's done fairly and correctly, it makes for livily and interesting debate (as seen here).

Only Cornmaster, Palehorse, Tf or my myself can judge what is offensive in this area of Civfanatics, and dissention of the USA is fine, if your factual, back up what you say, and are polite.

Otherwise, you have to deal with me.

And I will be watching.

 

[scorch]

/me starts shaking

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by scorch
/me starts shaking

Must be painful with that spiked collar you wear.

 

[animepornstar]

don´t mess with a o a.

however, 153 labour union representatives was killed in colombia last year. what do you think about that? i´m not going to buy any product connected to colombia anyway.