Do you really feel that the US way is right?

[drake]

Walmart pays better than fast food chains and other comparitive department stores.

How about a link to these bogus stats so you atleast have some shred of believability.

40% of workers on food stamps?

And exploitive as it may be, a job for little money is better than no job and no money. Walmart or Nike or f*ckin Kathy Lee aren't at fault for these poverty ridden countries.

Why don't you just say capitalism sucks and is evil and get over with it.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by drake
Walmart pays better than fast food chains and other comparitive department stores.

How about a link to these bogus stats so you atleast have some shred of believability.

40% of workers on food stamps?

And exploitive as it may be, a job for little money is better than no job and no money. Walmart or Nike or f*ckin Kathy Lee aren't at fault for these poverty ridden countries.

Why don't you just say capitalism sucks and is evil and get over with it.

Why didn't i just say capitalism sucks? I tried instead to present an intelligent argument but obviously you aren't prepared to listen.

I don't have an exact quote to give you - I heard it on the radio. I don't care if you believe it or not - however in THIS country walmart pays as little as they are legally allowed - $6.85 per hour. A person on that wage can NOT in any way afford rent, food, or clothing for themselves or their family.... So yes.. they WOULD be on food stamps.

 

[Whiskey Priest]

Well the free trade arguement does have its merits. the only problem with it si that the profit made from overseas labour (slave is a loaded, though accurate term) is not staying in these countries. the profit from selling nike shoes is not being invested in these countries. The validity of the free trade arguement lies in the idea of nations experiencing growth. These coutries are not really growing in any way. The "factories" are not even buildings, they are usually made of corrugated tin and are folded up when the end of the tax-free period ends. So no infrastructure is being put in place. These factories are not creating jobs that raise the standard of living, they are killing jobs that paid a decent wage (the few that existed anyway). Wages are going down when they should be going up. another reason why its not working out is that the companies have strong union busting policies, to the extent that talking is not allowed in the factories. So in conclusion free trade is not a bad Idea, in order for it to work out these multinationals are going to have to start investing in a meaningul way in these countries, and cut back some of the union busting policies.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

The problem with free trade is that if you are an empoverished third world producer and you get a fair price for what you produce you are still boogered...

 

[RedWolf]

I have made the difficult decision to take a break from OFF TOPIC for a good long while.

I get way to involved in these debates and i find it makes me angry and stressed. I didn't even see the problem until Joe Spaniel said something to the effect of "This is all for fun - try not to take it personally" Thank you for opening my eyes.
(for the record... you are NOT one of the professional soldiers I disliked - I have NEVER seen YOU visciously attack somebody else's views on here)

I have a very hard time not takeing these arguments personally and there is where the problem lies for me. My online computer time is suppossed to relax me... not add to my personal level of stress.

I notice that the "Capital Punishment" thread has reared it's ugly head to further drive a wedge between the left and right wing ideologies on this forum.
I'm proud that thus far I've managed to avoid throwing in my two cents.

Many of you may not agree with what i say on this forum and I may disagree with a lot of what you say... However i believe that I've fought the good fight and for the most part I've done it honourably. Thinking specifically about the horrible events of September 11th I don't think that i have ever implied that I AGREE with the murder of 5000 innocents... but I've been the eager to discuss and argue about many issues related to that. I'm sorry if some people feel this makes me a villian but I also feel that if you review my posts you will see that i HAVE expressed my sympathy for those killed on that tragic day - I just tend to disagree with the arguments surrounding it and the justification for the aftermath. Nothing gives someone the right to commit murder of the innocent and I think my debates have centered around that - I have held to this philosophy for BOTH sides I believe.

I'm sorry if some of you still feel I'm a bad person because i never meant to be - I even have a few close American friends that i care about very much.

There are people on here's who opposing views that i respect very much, and there are others who's views infuriate me. You know what? It's easy to dislike somebody over the net. If we were co-workers or even college students in the same school - we'd probably be friends - (this applied to people in both of the groups mentioned above) I don't agree with all my friend's beliefs and some of them are even radically right wing. But who cares.

It sometimes feels like we're going around in circles on this forum... we're always arguing the same things just with different people - as one of the guys that has been around civfanatics for a while... I see it never changing - same left wing VS right wing debates and the same old anger and frustration. Some people may enjoy this and all the power too them - However I don't anymore and everyone has to choose for themselves how they spend there time. It's accomplishing little except for stressing me out.

I'm not running from arguments... and I'm not whining about people "picking on me" - just deciding that I have more relaxing things to do with my time.

I do however tip my hat to the really intelligent debaters around here... Although my opinions didn't change you DID in many cases make me think. I hope that at the very least I did the same to some of you occasionally - whether you suscribe to either the left or right. Thinking is GOOD - and intelligent debate is even better.

I did my best not to say anything controversial in this post because quite frankly i don't want to argue about it... if you absolutely must ARGUE with my opinions then I ask only that you use one of my OTHER posts to quote from.

Please don't think that I consider this "getting the last word" because I don't. It's just that i've said all I have to say and I really don't want to fight anymore...

To everyone - good luck and happy debating. Everyone try to get along.

Ok BREATHE. AHHHH. Feel the stress disapating.

 

[sonorakitch]

Redwolf,

Good post. Sorry to probably be one to have stressed you out. I always enjoy a heart-pounding debate. Looking past all of the differences, there are many great reasons to get on here, and there is never any hard feelings on this end. I often times find myself becoming upset...but I always remind myself that I am here to not only attempt to expand others' horizons, but also to expand my own. You have done that, others have done that, and there are the few that haven't or probably won't.

With all due respect, I think you ought to check in every now and then and drop your take. It is much more valuable, even to us "right wingers" than you probably imagine.

~Chris

 

[CurtSibling]

Redwolf, I hope you get some R and R and come back refreshed!

Some CIV game sessions will do you the world of good!

I always found your debates interesting and hope none of my posts caused any real hassle to you.

None of the people in the forums strike me as bad characters,
I'd bet they are mostly cool guys if ya met them face to face.

Anyhow, don't lose heart and come back when you feel ready for some debate!

 

[animepornstar]

redwolf, i always thought that you didn´t take it personally, because you were argumenting with about four persons at the same time. i know that i have this problem myself (taking it too serious) and that plus the fact that i´m so much better in swedish then english makes that i´m trying avoid to be too deeply involved in some debates. i hope that this and some other discussions becomes dialogues now.

 

[adamsj]

I think the way USA are doing after the September 11th attack that they have done way good, but I am concern with what they want to do in Iraq or Iran. I am so glad with Blair and the American Secretary of State! For keep the USA from already attack Iraq.

 

[drake]

I tried instead to present an intelligent argument but obviously you aren't prepared to listen.

I don't have an exact quote to give you - I heard it on the radio. I don't care if you believe it or not - however in THIS country walmart pays as little as they are legally allowed - $6.85 per hour. A person on that wage can NOT in any way afford rent, food, or clothing for themselves or their family.... So yes.. they WOULD be on food stamps.

Intelligent argument? Using a factoid you heard on the radio as a basis of an argument isn't very convincing I'm sorry to say. But you're gone, so it doesn't matter I guess.

At the end of the day rw, this ISN'T personal at all, and in many cases just a place for people to exercise their minds at a boring job (like me). Grow a thicker skin and come back some time. We always appreciate arguing with (I mean hearing) your righteous opinions.

 

[Nafia2001]

Here is the thing to remember about the US...

The Federal Reserve is not part of the Government. It's a board of banks, most are not even US Banks. Out of these 11 men, 5 own just about everything in America. 3 of these 11 control over 90% of all media in the US. This includes book publishers, tv, radio, movie studios, newspaper, etc. The interesting tie lies in the fact that these 3 collectivly, The 11 chairmen of the Non Federal Reserve own all the oil companies, all the weapon companies, almost all the media (What the don't own, they control anyway), most of the mining companies, a great deal of the largest corperation in the US belong to them as well. Doesn't that just smell of the perfect setup. I mean, with that much vested greed, you would have to own the media anyways, so that your unsuspecting slaves don't really know whats going on. These same 11 men are tied either by family or directly to them for funding all sides in every war in the last 100 years. Thats right, Hitler was funded from American Bankers, even when the US was involved. And American Oil companies where sending Hitler Oil at a nice profit. These men have controlled the media almost completely since the 1940 and have been practicing a long term brainwashing on the US and the rest of the World since that time.

Hey, did you Know that social security is not fed program either? Nope, it's part of that NON Fedrel Reserve I was telling you about. If you can step back and look at the scope of the Federal Reserve, you can't ignor the fact that they are at least a Nation sized Corperation, and that happy little social security number of yours is a worker ID number.

Not only is the IRS unconstitutional, becuase it was never legally ratified by congress among other reasons, but it is also, not Federal. The IRS is to big a thing to get into here though...

The NON Federal Reserve has a large number of Congress working for them, literally. They recieve nice big checks. This fact alone should scare every american. It is not in our best interest for our elected congressmen and senetors to get a pay check from the most corupt organization in the states. I mean, come one, they all ready get paid off to support the bastards companies anyway. I probably don't need to tell you this but big business lobbing is not in your best intrest either.

Did you know that all the evidence in a two major federal cases where being held in the FBI offices located in one of the World Trade Center towers. The first case was against Alen Greenspan, yah know the guy, controls our economy, and many others from the Federal Reserve for the manipulation of the price of Gold. Evidently they made a bundle, and evidently, they were going to jail. Opps, the building fell down and destroyed all the proff. Sorry for the inconvienance MR Greenspan. The other case was against A Major American Oil company, they were going to be in serious trouble too....not anymore.

Did you know that the Bushs and Bin Laden families have been vested in each other bussiness's for a very long time? In fact, the Bin Ladens have been primary investors in several Bush bussiness's.

The Bushs and the Bin Ladens are mutal investors in a spin off Chemical company (I won't get into that) that just so happens to be the only legal source of the anthrax cure. They've made a bundle.

"In a time of universal deceit,
telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
~George Orwell


"Any people willing to surrender
basic liberty for security,
deserve neither."
- Benjamin Franklin

Seeing all the dead Afganistan Childern, Women, and Men, has given me a renewed sense of National Security.
God Bless America

Lets All Pray to our Gods.

To address the first poster of this topic, Did you know that they still spray US cattle with Agent Orange to kill bugs. Not only that but the men involved in this spraying all die painfully of cancer. Go have another McDonnalds Hamburger.

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

Redwolf - I would rather have you stay here so we can fight conservatism, but if you need a rest, then so be it. I too get angry with some posts, but I can just forget about them and get back to living my life . If you really need a break then take it but I implore you to comeback as soon as possible.

 

[drake]

Nafia, interesting reading....but at the end of the day, how much of what you say really matters to the common man? America is corrupt in many ways. It always will be, just as other countries are. Not gonna change. Unless of course we change basic human nature. Sadly, human nature is to be greedy and imperialistic.

 

[allan]

RedWolf, for what it's worth, when I went out of town over Thanksgiving, and didn't log on here for several days, I too felt sort of refreshed.... Debating gets tiring sometimes, and I try to keep myself from getting obsessed with it (although it sure can be addicting in a way!).

You seem to be one of the more level-headed people among the left here, and I think your posts are very thoughtful for the most part, even though I may disagree with them somewhat.

(Actually, I'll let you in on a little secret--I agree that corporations SHOULD do more for the communities and countries they extract profits from, but I just disagree that it should be a matter of law. Morality and law are often separate issues to me, as you may have observed in my debates with FL2 over fundamentalism. Generally, legislating morality often backfires, so it should be kept to bare necessary minimums--i.e. laws against murder, assault, fraud, theft, etc.

Instead, concerned people like you and I should investigate independently to find out which corporations are particularly egregious, and refuse to buy their products. It's something I never thought much about in recent years, but I resolve to do just that myself (thanks in part to your posts, RedWolf)--although it may be difficult to find out what I'd want to know in this regard. Have any sources? One opportunity we DO have in the free marketplace is to "vote with our wallet" so to speak.

Of course, government needs to also get out of the business of doing special favors for corporations (or ANYONE)--let them be free, but also have no perks either. This would bring about what capitalism was INTENDED to be--the best products win on the market! Government favors (both here and abroad) are much of what enables MNCs to do some things that we would call "immoral".)

Go, RedWolf, and get some rest--I understand the need for it myself sometimes--but come back knowing that even your left-wing opinions are valued by libertarians like me, and even I suspect by some right-wingers.

Remember, here debate is mainly a sport, and we can shake hands after a good heated "game"....

 

[RedWolf]

I know that I'm not suppossed to be here - however I couldn't help checking to see if ANYBODY will miss me.

I thank everyone for the kind words of support and I realize much better that in the end we ARE all friends and that my opinions are respected to some extent (just not always agreed with)

A few of you apologized for "adding to my stress" and I really appreciate that - However i want everyone to know that I'm not assigning blame... it's not anything you did in particular - you just argued your points strongly - the same as myself. Like i said - lately i've just found that I feel like I'm "taking on the world" and I've started to take it personally recently for some reason. I had originally intended to NEVER be back but after reading all your posts I think I WILL be back eventually - I just need a bit of a rest. "it's not you it's ME"

So everyone take care and be good. I'll be back again someday and it will probably be the same "left wing VS right wing" ideology and I'll be right back into it. See you all again sometime.

 

[SunTzu]

$6.58 an hour is excellent. i make $6.00 an hour and if i worked 8 hour days 5 days a week. i'd make over $200 a week. That can support a single person just fine.
Most wal-mart workers are high school kids, high school drop outs of adults with high school diploma's.
Better working then having to collect welfare checks. If you don't wanna work at walmart, join the Armed Forces. Thats what i'm doing if, for some reason i don't go to college, i'm going to the air force
Only if i don't go to college though,(no way in hell i'm not going to college)

 

[Scrimshaw]

$6.58 an hour is excellent. i make $6.00 an hour and if i worked 8 hour days 5 days a week. i'd make over $200 a week. That can support a single person just fine.

Somebody please tell me that's a joke. first of all he's talking about $6.85(not 6.58) Canadian. That's around 4.50 to 5.00 US funds.

Second, even factoring in the exchange rate you make nowhere near enough to survive comfortably. Sure you could live well on some backwoods farm in a shack in arizona or arkansas(you can get lots of beans for 6.00 an hour) but where most of us come from I don't want to live by myself making what you're making.

Dang, I make twice that working part time and I've have to be quite a tightwad to survive by myself. I'm impressed people making that kind of cash don't live on the streets. How they even live without outside help is beyond me. Minimum wage is way too low to live off of. Then keep in mind many of these peope have families. The armed forces aren't an option if you are all your family has.

[edited because I forgot to add this in]

Rent around here is around 400-600 at month for a dirt cheap apartment. Heck renting a small room will cost over 400 in most places. I don't know what shacks cost down there but up here that's still well over half of that excellent pay that walmart gives out. By the time you add in Water and hydro bills, food and general expenses, the other half is gone and then some. Food stamps would seem like a good idea by them

 

[Whiskey Priest]

At least here in Ontario, Canada minimum wage is $6.85. In adjsuting for inflationand other economic indicators this is 25% less then in 1975. Not only that but everything is more expensive (tuition has gone up about 200% in Ontario in the last decade)

 

[Scrimshaw]

Oh yeah I forgot about tuition. If you're still in school forget about it. Living on your own and not receiving outside help is out of the question if you make walmart style pay.

 

[andycapp]

Hope you come back to OT Redwolf - diversity of opinion makes these threads more interesting.

Don't let the narrow minded dogmatists get you down - they don't exibit intelligence - they display their ignorance and in ability to think!