Do you recognise Kosovo?

[red_elk]

Just can add that China has veto power as well

 

[HannibalBarka]

No, I don't recognise Kosovo. If the EU lts them be independant then soon enough other insignificant bastards will get the idea that they can be independant too. For e.g. is it Aragon or something that wants independance from Spain? Then in the UK the Welsh and Scottish think they can be their own countries, a little while ago we even had Cornwall wanting to be independant! I mean WTH? And anyway, you know what they say, ''divide and conquor'' Europe splitting into hundreds of little states would leave us all powerless to defend ourselves from terrorists, russia, America etc.

if nothing is holding your nation together and half its "provinces" wants to secede, than your nation is not viable. The only thing that makes a country viable is the "we want to live together and share the same destiny". When that is gone, that the country is dead.

 

[Vlade Divac]

Where was those ethnic cleansing? give me the facts... I want to see reports with facts that there were ethnic leasing...

The any cleansing that happened was Serbian police force arriving to Kosovo to quell the raging mob, and they arived to armed civilians... and I mean heavily armed civilians... I'm saying this from a view that my father was a commander of a small group ok police officers from Subotica... and he compares it with Vietnam and VC... once you see a civilian and you turn your head away and he shoots you...

Then normally, police was called away from Kosovo (mostly) and army was sent there to fight the separatists... and for ever armed civilian UCK (Albanian Terrorists) took their fallen men weapons, so later they can say (already on bad reputation) Serbs killed unarmed men

And I agree with Stormrage, if USA was at this situation their propaganda would be so strong that you would begin to hate their separatist groups

The only mistake Serbs did, was trying to behave like USA

Uh....ok. Nice try, though.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Kosovo economy is one of the weakest in Europe, with a GDP comparable to that of Nambia or Iraq. Half its population is unemployed. 70% of it economy is how much its debt is. The industrial sector remains weak and the electric power supply remains unreliable. No easy routes to international trade (Landlocked).

Fair points, but I'm mystified as to how you think Serbian rule offers a way out of these problems. What are they going to do? Start a construction boom for mass graves? Export dead Albanians?

Russia, UN Pernament Member with Veto Powers, will Veto Kosovo's entry into the UN. Many country's are waiting for EU decisions on the matter. High chance of many country's with ethnic groups asking for indepedence not seeing Kosovo independence (China, India, Indonesia). One of their Major trading partners, Bosnia & Hergoznia may not recongnize it.

You can't look to others for permission to do what's right. The status of Kosovo is a matter for the people of Kosovo. Practical problems are abundant, but they'll pull through with the support of most of the EU and the US.

It shares 1/2 its border with a neighbour that is not going to let Independence of Koscovo come so easily.

Serbia can further soil it's name in it's reaction to independence, but little else.

It has a very small population.

And?

Its not ready of Indepedance.

Bit late for that. I don't suppose it was ready for Milosevic either.

And It wont be anytime soon.

Get with the times arronax, the deed is done.

I would rather have all the Albanians move to Albania than become a new State.

Wow. Do you really mean that? We have a little Stalin in the making

I would rather see the Restoration of a fair Yugoslavia.

I would rather the people get to determine their own futures without war. If they want a new Yugoslavia then good luck to them. What order I might wish to create is irrelevant.

Long Live Europe with less borders!

I completely agree. Though I'd prefer it not enforced by genocide.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Yugoslavia was as artificial and unworkable as Kosovo. It was created after WW1 because the Entente powers knew nothing about Slavic nations in Balkans, so they "persuaded" them to form a unified country - it was easier to handle, they thought.

After the second world war, Yugoslavia was restored because the Soviets wanted to dominate all of its nations, not just the Serbs, and Croats agreed only because they had their hands covered in Serbian blood (they were loyal puppets of the German occupiers).

It's people have NEVER really wanted to live together in one country, that's why the country was doomed to failure from the very beginning.

Well apply this wonderfull analysis to Serbia-Kosovo and you'll get the reason why Serbia-Kosovo is doomed to failure, and needs to be devided into two states: Serbs and Kosovars have NEVER really wanted to live together in one country

 

[jessiecat]

No, I don't recognise Kosovo. If the EU lts them be independant then soon enough other insignificant bastards will get the idea that they can be independant too. For e.g. is it Aragon or something that wants independance from Spain? Then in the UK the Welsh and Scottish think they can be their own countries, a little while ago we even had Cornwall wanting to be independant! I mean WTH? And anyway, you know what they say, ''divide and conquor'' Europe splitting into hundreds of little states would leave us all powerless to defend ourselves from terrorists, russia, America etc.

You're entitled to your opinion in this thread, but where do you get off describing people as "insignificant bastards" because they want a measure of autonomy or self-rule for their nationality. Sounds like that quote should apply to you if you show such disrespect for other people's views.

 

[red_elk]

Well apply this wonderfull analysis to Serbia-Kosovo and you'll get the reason why Serbia-Kosovo is doomed to failure, and needs to be devided into two states: Serbs and Kosovars have NEVER really wanted to live together in one country

This analysis can be applied to many countries including Kosovo, if consider it as a country. There are regions with mostly Serbian population. Let's make more countries...

 

[Stormrage]

By Kosovars I only recognise Serbs from Kosovo, you of course probably mean the Albanians, as they have taken on the title.

If they never wanted to live together with Serbs, they shouldn`t have settled there.

My people have lived there for 7 centuries in peace with the Serbs, despite our two countries not getting along so well. If anyone gave us trouble it was the Albanians, under the Turks, and now.

 

[Ekolite]

All I was saying is that if the UK split into 3, 4 or 20 different countries, each one would be weak and insignificant in world politics. Which I think is very true. We're so much better off togeather.

 

[Partizanac]

Well apply this wonderfull analysis to Serbia-Kosovo and you'll get the reason why Serbia-Kosovo is doomed to failure, and needs to be devided into two states: Serbs and Kosovars have NEVER really wanted to live together in one country

There is no such thing as Kosovars, there are Serbs from Kosovo and Metohia(K&M), Albanians from Kosovo and Metohia(K&M) etc.

And stop saying Serbs and Albanians can't live in one country... what about Serbians living in K&M now? they should move away? cause Albanians think they have a right on K&M? Serbia is prepared to give K&M a status like Hong Kong has... Country in Country... So Serbs and Albanians live there by their own with almost non presence of Serbia there, but internationally K&M is in Serbia

Thats B&H (Bosnia & Herzegovina) and Republic of Srpska work


But no... lets brake the LAW! lets make a pupet state, lets kick out Serbs from their 1000 year old homelands and give them to new coming Albanians...

I REPEAT THERE ARE STILL SERBS THERE, SO THE Kosovo and Metohia IS STILL SERBIA.

 

[HannibalBarka]

This analysis can be applied to many countries including Kosovo, if consider it as a country. There are regions with mostly Serbian population. Let's make more countries...

I would have voted for attaching the "serbian" portion of Kosovo to Serbia actually.

 

[Sir Matzee]

if nothing is holding your nation together and half its "provinces" wants to secede, than your nation is not viable. The only thing that makes a country viable is the "we want to live together and share the same destiny". When that is gone, that the country is dead.

So every people who doesn't want to be a part of a country should separate????
So if i don't want to be a part of a nation i would simply separate my house from my country????

eheh very funny.....

I completely agree. Though I'd prefer it not enforced by genocide.

THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO!!!!!

Well apply this wonderfull analysis to Serbia-Kosovo and you'll get the reason why Serbia-Kosovo is doomed to failure, and needs to be devided into two states: Serbs and Kosovars have NEVER really wanted to live together in one country

Don't use the word "never".

1)Albanians and Serbian have always been allied or at least neutral. The hate start in 90s when stupid albanians mujaeddins decided to kill christian serbians

2)Albanians have become the majority of Kosovo in he last 50/60 years. They are simply immigrants of second generation who are reclaming a serbian province.

AND THIS IS AGAINST ALL THE INTERNATIONAL LAWS

 

[Partizanac]

Yugoslavia was as artificial and unworkable as Kosovo. It was created after WW1 because the Entente powers knew nothing about Slavic nations in Balkans, so they "persuaded" them to form a unified country - it was easier to handle, they thought.

After the second world war, Yugoslavia was restored because the Soviets wanted to dominate all of its nations, not just the Serbs, and Croats agreed only because they had their hands covered in Serbian blood (they were loyal puppets of the German occupiers).

It's people have NEVER really wanted to live together in one country, that's why the country was doomed to failure from the very beginning.

I agree with you except the first Yugoslavia... She wasn't created by Europe but by South Slavs... You see after WW1 Serbia alone freed almost whole todays Yugoslavia, and then Montenegro wanted to join its mature country Serbia. Bosnia with Serbian majority was planed to go to Serbia as well as did Dalmatia and Todays Rep. Srpska Krajina... and the rest of Croatia and Slovenia was to stay in Austria. But Croats knew that is their doom because of Germanization so THEY gave a new idea... to form a kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovens like UK today is (Scots, N.Ireland, Wels and England). Serbs liked the idea cause they thought of Croats and Slovens as their brothers , but Croats and Slovens saw this as a step to their independence. Serbs have agreed to form such a state but with Serbian king on top, but Croats Slovens & Muslims got full freedom... that country later became Kingdom of Yugoslavia. And later came WW2 and you all know the story...

 

[Winner]

and you are wrong, those countries existed for centuries. Andorra exists as a country before tens of "real" countries including yours. The only reason to look "down" on Andorra is that it is not influential, but in that case nor is Czeck Republic. When it comes to legitimacyn and that is the topic at hands, Andorra is most certainly more legitimate that half the world countries

No, you didn't get it. I won't try again to rephrase it, it would be a waste of time.

 

[warpus]

When exactly did the ethnic Albanians move into the region?

 

[Sir Matzee]

When exactly did the ethnic Albanians move into the region?

When Kosovo became richer than Albania....

 

[HannibalBarka]

So every people who doesn't want to be a part of a country should separate????
So if i don't want to be a part of a nation i would simply separate my house from my country????
eheh very funny.....

If there are around two millions people living in your house and are at war with said country for a decade or so, do not want to share a common destiny with it, absolutly, yes you should separate you house from your country.

THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO!!!!!

That is right, since you still find kosovars. But NATO had to bombs Serbia 'army to prevent it.

Don't use the word "never".
1)Albanians and Serbian have always been allied or at least neutral. The hate start in 90s when stupid albanians mujaeddins decided to kill christian serbians

2)Albanians have become the majority of Kosovo in he last 50/60 years. They are simply immigrants of second generation who are reclaming a serbian province.
AND THIS IS AGAINST ALL THE INTERNATIONAL LAWS

OK, I agree to replace "never" by "not any more", happy now
Serbs and Kosovars do not want to live in the same country any more. When two "ethnic" groups start killing each other to the point where international force ad to intervene to prevent a genocide in the Middle of Europe, that is a good indication that those two group of people do not feel they have enough things in common to share the same country.

 

[Rambuchan]

Oh, we're playing the empathy game eh?

If the land was being taken by the people who actually lived there in response to a legitimate grievance then good luck to them.

If your government was trying to ethnically cleanse your ethnic group would you be happy to continue being governed by them? If Serbia was serious about hanging on to Kosovo it should have been a hell of a lot nicer to Kosovo's majority ethnic group. Instead they just tried to kill them all and now Kosovo has had the good sense to part ways. Cry me a river.

I see you're playing the empathy game too. Here are two things you may do well to understand, and that I am surprised to read that someone of your calibre apparently does not:

1) Milošević is dead.

The Serbia that this unilateral declaration of independence happened to is not the Serbia that he ran. And his government was far from being representative of all the people he governed over anyway. I suppose I should have very little sympathy for you being a British passport holder, because you must be just like that filthy war monger and war criminal Tony Blair? Or, to reflect the temporal distinction between today and when Milošević was around, I guess you must be another Thatcherite lacky arsehole, who deserves no sympathy whatsoever.

The Serbia that this has happened to is a nation that was peacefully and diplomatically trying to solve this problem, through the normal legal channels. Their current government is comprised of the same people who handed Milošević over to The Hague. They were on their way to coming to a compromise for both sides, but the powers that be were not interested in due process and jumped the gun "to bring peace to the region".

2) Kosovo Albanians may not want to be a part of Serbia, but they have never asked too politely about it and Serbs in Kosovo have received brutal treatment at the hands of the Kosovo militias, population and allies alike.

Serbs were being intimidated and driven out of their homes in Kosovo in a concerted fashion at least since the early 1980s (sure you can go way back in history to see the ebb and flow) and Milošević only came to power in 1989. These Serbs, who suffered at the hands of the Kosovo Albanians, became the followers of radical nationalists in Serbia. It is these Serbian refugees from Kosovo, as well as other parts of the former Yugoslavia, who are/were the followers of people such as Milošević.

Further, the various Albanian separatist movements were (and still are) very heavily armed, as someone with the police dad above pointed out. It was after the oh so enlightened Dayton Agreement, in 1995, that Kosovo Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army and started clashes with both the Yugoslav army and Serbian police. Again, nothing to do with due process here. They were using outright violence, sanctioned by Washington and London and the rest of NATO.

Then you must consider that, in 1999, NATO bombed the sh!t out of Serbians, and even more Serbs, about 100,000 according to the UNHCR, were thus driven from Kosovo. Estimates hover around 50-60% of the Serbian population fleeing Kosovo in the face of this violence (conveniently laying the ground work for the demographics arguments that we now see flying around).

In 2004, with UNMIK present, there was still more serious violence. And the specific catalyst here being the drive-by shooting of an 18 year old Serb called Jovica Ivić. Serbs protested against this. Albanians gathered in their thousands to greet them. Violence ensued and some 3,600 people had been made homeless by the violence, mostly Serbs. Their houses were burnt to the ground. They were shot indiscriminately. Even the peace keeping forces had people gunned down by Albanian militias. Of course, there were armed Serbs who shot back, it's never been pretty or simple. But this event was what set the ball rolling for attacks on Kosovo Serbs all over Kosovo. Their houses, churches and other cultural institutions were burned to the ground and they were either killed or chased out of the region.

There are so many other events in this whole process that I could point to for you. But this is perhaps enough to illustrate the point for now, which is basically that....

You are buying the sympathy line of downtrodden people when considering the Kosovo Albanians. But are they the only downtrodden in this story?

The downtrodden are on either side my friend. How can you possibly back just one group and not the other? And for how long must the Serbian people suffer collective punishment on behalf of a leader that they handed over to The Hague ages ago and who is no longer even alive?

 

[dosed150]

All I was saying is that if the UK split into 3, 4 or 20 different countries, each one would be weak and insignificant in world politics. Which I think is very true. We're so much better off togeather.

thsts not really true is it, i mean yeh scotland, wales or northern ireland would be insignificant but england would still be a player on the world stage

 

[Captain Planet]

This is a particularly important blow against Russia at the same time. It became inevitable through the work of NATO and benefits NATO. We should applaud their efforts, afterall they exist for this reason.

And Slobodan didn't help the situation for the other party.