Do you support a Libertarian Utopia?

[amadeus]

It sounds like the same arguments made about communism. There's never been a libertarian "success" nor has there been a communist "success" and that they've never been properly implemented.

Not really. I think there are a lot of libertarian successes, but they just haven't occurred at the same time and in the same place. Hong Kong is in many ways a success in terms of laissez-faire economic policies, but not in things like drug legalization. So where does Hong Kong fit?

Both ideologies don't seem to account for the depths of human greed and in reality, a balance between the two ideas of government is what's needed.

If human greed is so deep, why do you think a small group of people with a monopoly on the use of force wouldn't be themselves greedy?

 

[NYHunter]

I don't expect a successful libertarian society to ever exist. But, it is still my ultimate desire.

I also don't think I can keep all wildlife safe. But, I've donated money to wildlife preservation causes anyway because it too is an ultimate desire of mine.

 

[Agent327]

If human greed is so deep, why do you think a small group of people with a monopoly on the use of force wouldn't be themselves greedy?

Indeed. But there´s no such thing like ´a monopoly on the use of force´...

 

[Ajidica]

Hong Kong is in many ways a success in terms of laissez-faire economic policies, but not in things like drug legalization. So where does Hong Kong fit?

So having 50% of the housing being public funded is 'laissez-faire' economic policies?

 

[Tahuti]

So having 50% of the housing being public funded is 'laissez-faire' economic policies?

That's a point of the HK economic policy, but not a major one. The main pillars of the HK economic policy are low taxes and few regulations that stand in the way of forming businesses. Note that Hong Kong also has Single payer health care, though I believe private options are available too.

 

[Leonel]

So having 50% of the housing being public funded is 'laissez-faire' economic policies?

Yeah I have to agree with Ajidica there. I've lived in Hong Kong for over 10 years and there's some stuff there that isn't laissez-faire economics. Not only public housing, public health services along side private services, the government is even giving away HK$6600 (Aprox US$700) to anyone with a bank account in Hong Kong and at least a Hong Kong Residency status. Recently, they implemented a minimum wage law to give lowest paid workers some help.

 

[amadeus]

So having 50% of the housing being public funded is 'laissez-faire' economic policies?

The state housing scheme is why I added the qualifier in many ways. Given Hong Kong's recent slides in abandoning free markets, I had contemplated saying Hong Kong was in many ways a free market success.

Recently, they implemented a minimum wage law to give lowest paid workers some help.

They should call it the "Poor Worker Exclusion Act" because that's what a minimum wage does.

 

[Traitorfish]

Given that the meanings of words describing political ideologies has changed so significantly over time, I'm frustrated at anti-capitalist/anti-property anarchists giving anarcho-capitalists/libertarians a hard time over their use of the "anarcho-" prefix and "libertarian."

I'm cool with market libertarians if they're sincere. I just think that the term is abused by people who wouldn't know what "liberty" was if it bit them on the arse.

It sounds like the same arguments made about communism. There's never been a libertarian "success" nor has there been a communist "success" and that they've never been properly implemented. Both ideologies don't seem to account for the depths of human greed and in reality, a balance between the two ideas of government is what's needed.

For the record, not all strains of communism actually regard "implementation", in this sense, as a coherent proposition, so wouldn't go around making these kinds of excuses.

Indeed. But there´s no such thing like ´a monopoly on the use of force´...

Who, outside of the state, is permitted to either use force freely, or to certify the legitimacy of the use of force by others?

They should call it the "Poor Worker Exclusion Act" because that's what a minimum wage does.

An argument against wages, rather than minimum wage laws.

 

[amadeus]

An argument against wages, rather than minimum wage laws.

I don't see how.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't see how.

If the wage-system doesn't naturally permit you the material capacity for meaningful freedom, then I don't see how you can be reasonable expected to permit the wage system. What's the point of anarchism, if it all it amounts to is a longer list of things that you would technically be able to do if it wasn't for your total lack of opportunity to actually do them?

 

[amadeus]

Things are scarce and we need a way to efficiently allocate resources. If everything could be provided to people that didn't work or be productive enough to sustain themselves, why would anyone work?

 

[Traitorfish]

Things are scarce and we need a way to efficiently allocate resources.

And yet the service industry is enormous.

If everything could be provided to people that didn't work or be productive enough to sustain themselves, why would anyone work?

An argument against work!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

The state housing scheme is why I added the qualifier in many ways. Given Hong Kong's recent slides in abandoning free markets, I had contemplated saying Hong Kong was in many ways a free market success.


They should call it the "Poor Worker Exclusion Act" because that's what a minimum wage does.

Did you get that from a government report?

 

[amadeus]

And yet the service industry is enormous.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

How does dreadful wages create jobs? It just means people need to take more than one job to survive.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

If we were interested in the efficient distribution of resources, then we'd probably spend more time making sure that everyone had an adequate level of material well-being, rather than in filling huge warehouses with people doing nothing useful. (And I say that as somebody who has just spent his weekend in a huge warehouse doing nothing useful, so don't think there's any snobbery in this.)

How does dreadful wages create jobs? It just means people need to take more than one job to survive.

Next you'll be telling us that the era of the single-earner family is over.

 

[Cutlass]

How does dreadful wages create jobs? It just means people need to take more than one job to survive.

You put more people into low productivity jobs and fewer people into higher productivity jobs so that aggregate hours worked goes up and aggregate production goes down.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Ah. If only we had an accountant! The cry of everyone faced with adversity.

 

[Tenochtitlan]

I voted 'in a heart beat' and here's why: I'm not asking you to do as I say. I'm not trying to force my 'utopia' on you. I'm asking to be left alone. You won't leave me alone. You won't allow me to secede. You won't allow me to band with 10,000 other people and create our own anti-coercive society, in our territory. You prevent me from doing this. You make it illegal. You force me to be in your system.


All we ask is for you to leave us alone. We do not need your government 'services'. If I pay a visit to your state or city, I'll spend money at your city's businesses and cafes who pay for the streets and sidewalks I used to get there . But when I'm home, please leave me alone. We'll be neutral, like Switzerland, which by the way hasn't had a war in 200 years.


The question is, if myself and a few thousand others voluntarily come together to live under an agreement or arrangement that we would like, why would you prevent me from doing this? Why do you feel it is necessary for you to impose your way of life on us?

 

[Ajidica]

Unfortunately, there is a greater number of people living in an area who don't want your Orwellian ideas of liberty forced upon them.
If someone were to come up to me and say "I'm going to make you more free by imposing my ideology on you without your consent" I would tell them to sod off.