Do you view taxation as theft?

[Cutlass]

You are actually supporting his argument and don't even seem to realize it. What you are saying is that no matter what (reasonable) course of action you take, you are forced to use services that you did not specifically request and then forcefully made to pay for them. That is functionally identical to a protection racket, which we call extortion. When the government does it, it's called taxation.

Whether or not anyone believes that the services we get for it are worth the cost is irrelevant (I think the vast majority of the population would agree that at least some taxation is necessary). Intellectual honesty demands calling a spade a spade. If a street gang giving you services you didn't ask for and then forcing you to pay is called extortion, then logically the government doing the exact same thing must be extortion as well. The fact that you and I happen to believe that we get what we pay for in the second case doesn't matter when answering the question as phrased.

I really don't see it that way. Your personal prosperity and safety are completely intertwined with the government. You cannot separate the two. You have already made use of the benefits that some people are claiming is theft to pay for.

The only theft here is the people who are trying to get out of paying their bills.

 

[Berzerker]

i voted other - a tax to use roads or infrastructure aint theft, a tax so politicians can pay off their supporters is theft.

as for "ownership", if its a human invention why do critters all over the planet fight to defend themselves and their turf?

at what rate of taxation would it become theft?

 

[Cutlass]

It's not about rate. It's about what you get for it.

 

[Berzerker]

so if you dont get what your taxes are worth, does it become theft?

 

[Cutlass]

If the elite are taking the money just to pay for their own extravagant lives, and no part of it is going to the public good, then you can make the case for it being theft. Many a third world country has been in that trap. In developed nations that's not really an issue, despite the efforts of conservatives.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Most forms of taxation is theft/extortion. However, the same can be said of the monopolization of scarce natural resources. Only the products of human labor are legitimate property, and the homesteading of natural resources required to create them is only justified under the conditions of the Lockean Proviso. Land value taxes used to compensate those denied access to land is not so much theft as a way to get justice for the victims of theft. Taxes on negative externalities such as pollution can also be justified as means of compensating the injured parties.

 

[Berzerker]

If the elite are taking the money just to pay for their own extravagant lives, and no part of it is going to the public good, then you can make the case for it being theft. Many a third world country has been in that trap. In developed nations that's not really an issue, despite the efforts of conservatives.

Congress is the biggest thief on the planet, remember those bailouts for the "1%"?

 

[Cutlass]

Congress is the biggest thief on the planet, remember those bailouts for the "1%"?

Remember the not having a global great depression and 20% unemployment for a decade?

 

[Berzerker]

so you think the bailouts qualify as legitimate under your "public good"?

does that include all the corruption leading up to the "need" for that public good?

yes, that was theft and Congress was at the heart of it - taking bribes, making taxpayers liable, and then ignoring the crooks

 

[GhostWriter16]

Considering congress sets its own salary, and all the corruption, and the inefficiency, the fact that we don't get = to what we pay for is pretty obvious to me.

I think at its basic level it has to be comparable to theft because you can't opt out in any way and decide to protect your own land and resources. Either you pay, or you get locked up/fines.

That said, we did decide as a group to elect a government with those powers. Most of us wouldn't make the trade from what we have now to NO government assistance. I wouldn't even make that trade. So, theft? This is murky water, its not as simple as either side is making it.

 

[Absolution]

The idea itself is not a theft at all.
Only Socialists and Anarchists make this thought be even considered.

 

[Cutlass]

so you think the bailouts qualify as legitimate under your "public good"?

does that include all the corruption leading up to the "need" for that public good?

yes, that was theft and Congress was at the heart of it - taking bribes, making taxpayers liable, and then ignoring the crooks

Conservatives and libertarian ideas more dominate government. That inevitably results in worse outcomes. The fact that the system is being corrupted does not invalidate the system. The worst of all possible worlds remains a government that does nothing for the public good.

 

[GhostWriter16]

libertarianism dominates the government? Really? I haven't seen many libertarians in the government at all.

 

[Berzerker]

Conservatives and libertarian ideas more dominate government. That inevitably results in worse outcomes. The fact that the system is being corrupted does not invalidate the system. The worst of all possible worlds remains a government that does nothing for the public good.

It wasn't libertarianism that gave us the housing bubble and it wasn't libertarians who made the taxpayers liable for the corruption. But if the system was corrupted, why isn't that theft according to your own definition? You defended the bailouts as a "public good" and therefore not theft, but now even the corruption that led to the bailouts aint theft?

 

[Cutlass]

libertarianism dominates the government? Really? I haven't seen many libertarians in the government at all.

Then, as usual, you have not been paying attention. This whole deregulation, the market rules all, movement is the product of the adoption of libertarian principles. Now they have not done a complete job, that is true. But they have done immense damage with the influence that they have gained.

 

[Cutlass]

It wasn't libertarianism that gave us the housing bubble and it wasn't libertarians who made the taxpayers liable for the corruption. But if the system was corrupted, why isn't that theft according to your own definition? You defended the bailouts as a "public good" and therefore not theft, but now even the corruption that led to the bailouts aint theft?

Libertarians are complicit in creating the intellectual justification under which all the rest happened. They set the house on fire.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Then, as usual, you have not been paying attention. This whole deregulation, the market rules all, movement is the product of the adoption of libertarian principles. Now they have not done a complete job, that is true. But they have done immense damage with the influence that they have gained.

If these are Libertarians, they are quite pathetic ones "Conservatives" maybe, but still...

If you want to know what "libertarianism" is look at the likes of Ron Paul or Gary Johnson. We don't have many people in our government like that.

 

[Berzerker]

Libertarians are complicit in creating the intellectual justification under which all the rest happened. They set the house on fire.

would that be the house built by govt backed loans after decades of pro-govt folks demanding more $$$ and construction?

was the corruption theft or not?

 

[Cutlass]

If these are Libertarians, they are quite pathetic ones "Conservatives" maybe, but still...

If you want to know what "libertarianism" is look at the likes of Ron Paul or Gary Johnson. We don't have many people in our government like that.

Those people aren't libertarian either. Just conservative extremists with no concept of responsibility. If they had been libertarians they never would have had a connection to the Republican party.

 

[Cutlass]

would that be the house built by govt backed loans after decades of pro-govt folks demanding more $$$ and construction?

was the corruption theft or not?

Don't blame the government for what the private sector did. Blame the culprits, not the scapegoats.