Does Race exist?

But the key point is that the boxes are ill-defined, so asking me specifically how it should be determined who belongs in which box, just because I believe that the concept of having some system of boxes is valid. But I've already said it's mostly going to be based on visual appearance, simply due to necessity (by which I don't mean the necessity referred to earlier of course).

Ok I get what you mean, so you meant the differences visual appearance of one human to the other are objectively evident, this diversity later on being complied based on their physical similarity into certain group, which become race, am I right?

Now before we go further please don't refer defining something as boxing, those are different. Defining something you give a territorial line to a particular concept or object, hence the concept becomes recognizable, without that we cannot recognize the object of our discussion and totally wasting our time. While boxing something is putting something on certain box, like "oh Steven against objectification of women, he is a sjw virgin" for example.

You can say that if you like, but if I show you a very dark-skinned child, then show you two photos of couples - one very white and one very black - and asked you to pick who you think are the parents...

the same like your previous point. I'll be back to talk about this later.

My only claim is that there are various "branches" of humans, that through geographical isolation and "inbreeding" over prolonged periods of time, have evolved to have genetic differences. These genetic differences are obviously small, and I'm not imbuing them with any moral value or deeper meaning, but they nonetheless exist. Further, many of these genetic differences result in clearly perceptible differences in appearance. The result of this is that most people are able to identify various subgroups of people, based solely on these differences, just by looking at them. I don't really know how anyone can deny the truth of this.

Alright you are saying here the objective reality of people having difference appearance from one and another, and makes them fall into a particular category of race, this happened as a result of geographical isolation and continuation of inbreeding, nevertheless this reality is completely neutral from any moral value, am I get it right also? Does this picture also pretty much represent the categorization of race that you have in your mind (please answer it this time):

avgs-jpg.524426


So yeah, I'm not making any claim as to the absolute truth of any specific and rigidly-defined system of categorising races, nor denying that any such system is indeed a "social construct", I'm just recognising the underlying objective reality that any such system is trying to categorise.

This is interesting, here you stated that you are not denying that race is indeed a social construct, am I read you right? But you are just stating that the diversity of people's skin color, eyes shapes, are objectively recognizable and different hence can be put to certain grouping base on their similarity, and from this reality the concept of race emerge. Am I read you right?

It's not fallacious because you keep asking me about why I think something is necessary and good, when you think it is unnecessary and bad, when I never made any such claims other than it just simply "is". It could be about guns, bananas, the smell of oranges, domestic violence or God. Merely stating that I think any of these things exist doesn't mean it makes sense to counter with opinions about how good/bad or necessary/unnecessary they are.

Nope it is, Unicorn is well defined. You know the difference between a horse, a zebra and a unicorn, not to mention guns and bananas. While race, everybody seems very reluctant to make a solid definition about it, even the believer of it have a level of doubt about it.

I'm not sure I don't want that in my signature line!

Gori be my guest! You had my permission lol
 
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Differences exist in reality. Racism is the act of noticing them, apparently.

Well for example, the term for distinguishable populations is...populations, not "races." That right there shows where you're coming from.

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Does race exist? This kind of discussion always devolves into word games, so let's start by defining race. Races are human populations that are distinguishable from each other.
I used to know a woman who looked so convincingly Latina that Latinx people would walk up to her and just start speaking Spanish. She didn't speak Spanish. Her mother was Kenyan and her father was Scotch-Irish (or German-Irish... something & Irish, I forget). What race was she? What race is Jessica Alba? Salma Hayek? Jason Momoa? "Mixed race" is the closest thing to a good answer, I suppose, but what's the use of that? And it changes from place to place. Is Momoa a "haole" in Hawaii? Or a "hapa"? Alba and Hayek don't look Nahua to me; I'm guessing their Mexican heritage leans on the Spanish side. Don't ask me what that means in Mexico. Do Mexicans care about about people's heritage the way Americans do? I don't even know, maybe it doesn't mean anything.
 
You're giving the game away here. It's all about the speech code, who would've guessed?

No its not. The use of the word race is an assertion that all people who look "black" (or asian or w/e) have some essence of "blackness" about them, and this idea was used to make it permissible to oppress and exploit them. Racists assert that people still have this innate racial essence they can diagnose, usually by looking at someone. They try to make the counterfactual claim that there are genetically similar human populations that exactly match what they wish to be true.
 
This is interesting, here you stated that you are not denying that race is indeed a social construct, am I read you right? But you are just stating that the diversity of people's skin color, eyes shapes, are objectively recognizable and different hence can be put to certain grouping base on their similarity, and from this reality the concept of race emerge. Am I read you right?
Classification of people by hair color on "blondes" and "brunettes" is a social construct too. It also has biological grounds.
When we move from hair to skin color, it suddenly becomes problematic.
 
changing labels doesn't change the world. That kind of marketing just gives a temporary boost. Try changing the product.

Well, you really won't like it if we try to, like, annihilate the actual material sources of inequality between the races. Something about a global redistribution of wealth and "reparations for slavery"...
 
My not well developed opinions below so please do not ask for studies and such for my claims:

I think the race exists as it is genetically transmitted and pretty much predictable if parents are of the same race. Also think that there are many races (as many as arbitrary definitions). Since we also have differences in not so visible internal organs and not only skin tone which is probably the most stupid way of defining race (because all people on this planet, regardless of continent, nearer to the equator are darker). Can IQ be a racial trait, I think it could be as it is a genetic trait, but let's first take care that it becomes culturally (society needs to be technological to make any value of abstract thinking), nutritionally and educationally neutral before we quantify anything (see Flynn effect). When we do, I believe, difference will become negligible as it is the case with historically very separated populations in Europe and East Asia, both close in IQ, and very different in appearance.

For me, making generalizations like race is just a form of systematic memory saving. Zipping, taring, whatever. You know that with some race comes some probability of having a certain feature but you can't say anything for an individual as one is not statistically relevant number. Since ordinary people communicate with individuals and not populations, it makes not sense to use any kind of global generalization as a final result. But if I wanted to search for a specific athlete who needs to dunk over Embiid, I'd avoid Asian population to save my time, and anyone else, I guess. There must be a reason for that, maybe some concept could explain that phenomenon that certain features can be prevalent in some particular populations...

Personally, I dislike the fact that in racism, people are combating the word "race" and give space for rebranding and not an irrational fear and primitive thinking. Funny, my anthropologist friend was not allowed to write a seminar discussing race concept at his university as university had strong antifascist roots (of course, than you impose totalitarian single-minded, not allowed even to think on your own views, ...because you are against fascists). I happen to be related to quite a number of primitive xenophobes who instantly turned into normal respectful human beings after being exposed to different race and culture for couple of months due to school or work.

Race and jerks exist.
 
This looks very interesting, can You please translate what it says not using scientific terms like "STR" , "AGT", "site polymorphisms" and "14.4-kb gene" ? (tbh. it's all greek to me) If I gather those pictures correctly we are all descendants from the black people of Africa right ? And Asians are the most evolved representants of our species ?

We were white, turned black when we lost our body hair and the forests, and some of those who left later had to wear fur and got white again :) Aint life strange? I'm assuming our African ancestors 3-6 mya had pale skin hidden by black hair. We're all the most evolved, everyone can be traced back to the same small group somewhere near Ethiopia. I'd love to have a time machine and pay them a visit. And all the world was of one tongue and one culture.
 
Couldn't be the sweeping racial disparities in virtually every outcome from health to education to the job market to the criminal justice system...could it?

I'm not going to disagree that racial disparities exist, but why is this? I'm going to assume you believe that it's due to racism?
 
I'm not going to disagree that racial disparities exist, but why is this? I'm going to assume you believe that it's due to racism?

What else could explain the disparity? People of colour, in an American context, are treated less favourably in comparison to white people by society and it's institutions, greatest example being the law.
 
I used to know a woman who looked so convincingly Latina that Latinx people would walk up to her and just start speaking Spanish. She didn't speak Spanish. Her mother was Kenyan and her father was Scotch-Irish (or German-Irish... something & Irish, I forget). What race was she? What race is Jessica Alba? Salma Hayek? Jason Momoa? "Mixed race" is the closest thing to a good answer, I suppose, but what's the use of that? And it changes from place to place. Is Momoa a "haole" in Hawaii? Or a "hapa"? Alba and Hayek don't look Nahua to me; I'm guessing their Mexican heritage leans on the Spanish side. Don't ask me what that means in Mexico. Do Mexicans care about about people's heritage the way Americans do? I don't even know, maybe it doesn't mean anything.
You're touching on an interesting point here. Are Hispanics a race? Or is it an ethnicity that encompasses many different races? If Hispanics were a race, they'd be a very mixed race. Overall though, yes, mixed race people exist. Only reason they can exist is because there are different races that can, and do, mix.

What else could explain the disparity?
If only, we had an explanation. If only, we had proof. If only... I guess it can only be due to systematic racism
 
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What else could explain the disparity? People of colour, in an American context, are treated less favourably in comparison to white people by society and it's institutions, greatest example being the law.

If racism is the reason for the disparity, can you list a law that is specifically racist that would create this disparity?

White privilege most certainly existed before, during, and then after the civil rights movement up to some point (and elsewhere even longer, e.g. South Africa and other colonised African countries among others), but to say that white people have this privileged advantaged (privilege that is unearned) in today's society I think is a hyperbole, especially when you take into consideration affirmative action and other racial programs, then it starts to go the other way.
 
What a lot of reading to catch up...
We have genes. Many genes. Genes in all kinds of variety and combinations. The not so many genes coding for physical appearance go skindeep only and not telling that much on all the other genes.
So... why using the word "race" ?
A word that has been abused so much in the last centuries. So much variety in connotations that are not helpful for effective communication. And the word "race" is anyway not descriptive enough for all kinds of biological-medical effects ?

Some remarks/info
1.
In roughly 1500, many pairs of populations had been geographically, and therefore genetically, isolated for tens of thousands of years. E.g., Western Europeans and Bantu peoples. Tens of thousands of years is enough time for SNPs to build up and create population-level differences in many distributions of phenotypes. Melanin levels and eye color were not the only things affected. Americans who have most of their ancestors in Europe 500 years ago are more likely to have multiple sclerosis. Americans who have most of their ancestors in Africa 500 years ago are more likely to have sickle cell anemia. These are real differences in the distributions of diseases between these two populations.
Except from some islands and some really peripheral (and hard to travel or sustain) areas, tribes wandered all over Europe-Asia-Africa during those tens of thousands of years.
There were at the start of Homo Sapiens some issues to get out of Africa, but once the area of the Euphrates and the Tigris rivers were reached, nothing stopped further wandering in all directions, continuously.
It did ofc happen that some tribes kept control over the area of origin of mutations until modern times, but in many cases the highest percentages of haplogroups are found hundreds, thousands of miles away from the origin.
If you just look at all the known major tribal wanderings crisscrossing through Europe between 100 AD and 600 AD, followed by many more up to 1100 AD, and then at the various Haplogroup percentages spread out over Europe or EuroAsia, with everywhere different percentages, with also often the assumed location of origin of the mutation having today a very low percentage.
Here a graph of tribal wanderings of 100-600 AD in Europe:
Schermopname (2883).png

And here some graphs with % distribution of some of the Haplogroups, showing how far the carrier tribes wandered:
(On the site you can see also the tree of further subgroups as the origined from further mutations in the course of time, indicating the time line of their wandering)
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
The Y-DNA (male) Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E-M78 and E-Z827 originated respectively at 20,000 years and 24,000 years. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.
Schermopname (2890).png


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
The Y-DNA Haplogroup R* originated in North Asia just before the Last Glacial Maximum (26,500-19,000 years before present). This haplogroup has been identified in the 24,000 year-old remains of the so-called "Mal'ta boy" from the Altai region, in south-central Siberia (Raghavan et al. 2013). This individual belonged to a tribe of mammoth hunters that may have roamed across Siberia and parts of Europe during the Paleolithic.
Here the migration percentage map of the R1a haplogroup (evolved from those R* mammoth hunters)
Schermopname (2893).png


This R1b* haplogroup below, evolved from R* (those mammoth hunters), is also interesting because tribes carrying them wandered deep into Africa, and domesticised the auroch into cattle (DNA research indicating that 80 individual aurochs were the arch base)
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml
It has been hypothetised that R1b people (perhaps alongside neighbouring J2 tribes) were the first to domesticate cattle in northern Mesopotamia some 10,500 years ago. R1b tribes descended from mammoth hunters, and when mammoths went extinct, they started hunting other large game such as bisons and aurochs. With the increase of the human population in the Fertile Crescent from the beginning of the Neolithic (starting 12,000 years ago), selective hunting and culling of herds started replacing indiscriminate killing of wild animals. The increased involvement of humans in the life of aurochs, wild boars and goats led to their progressive taming. Cattle herders probably maintained a nomadic or semi-nomadic existence, while other people in the Fertile Crescent (presumably represented by haplogroups E1b1b, G and T) settled down to cultivate the land or keep smaller domesticates.
The analysis of bovine DNA has revealed that all the taurine cattle (Bos taurus) alive today descend from a population of only 80 aurochs. The earliest evidence of cattle domestication dates from circa 8,500 BCE in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic cultures in the Taurus Mountains. The two oldest archaeological sites showing signs of cattle domestication are the villages of Çayönü Tepesi in southeastern Turkey and Dja'de el-Mughara in northern Iraq, two sites only 250 km away from each others. This is presumably the area from which R1b lineages started expanding - or in other words the "original homeland" of R1b.
Schermopname (2896).png



If you look at the Old World map showing the areas of the dominating haplogroup you get this graph below:
This map also shows with arrows the tribal wanderings from assumed origin location to areas with highest percentage today.

Do note that the R1b* haplogroup reached Cameroon, BTW very close to where "Adam" (Y-DNA haplogroup A*) is assumed to have started 250,000 years ago. A00-AF6/L1284* has been found found in 6 living males in Cameroon.
https://www.marres.nl/haplogroepen.htm
Schermopname (2898).png



2.
Historical tribal genocides and/or surpression/social stratification.
A. If you find in some ethnic group, or in some area with good boundaries much more diversity of mt-DNA Haplogroups (female ancestor line) than diversity of the Y-DNA Haplogroups (male ancestor line), it is more likely explained by social stratification processes in the past 250,000 years, like polygamy, slavery or genocide of mostly males (or as less likely case diseases that affected male only).
B. If you find however comparable diversity between mtDNA and Y-DNA, it is more likely that complete tribes were genocided, driven to less favorable habitats, or suffered from diseases (like imported from other tribes).
Reality ofc a mix of both processes.

An example of that social stratification process is Cuba according to this article (google translated):
(And no, I did not made the effort to find (and check) the original science articles, but so much of this source does fit sound info, that I believe it)
https://www.marres.nl/haplogroepen.htm
Recent replacement of the Y-DNA in Cuba:
A good example of the displacement of indigenous genes by a completely new gene package shows the genographic composition of the Caribbean island of Cuba. The island has been inhabited for 7000 years. In 1513 it became a Spanish colony. About 110,000 people lived there at the time. Now there are more than eleven million. The newcomers were Spaniards, but many Africans also entered the country as slaves.
In 2012, an admixture analysis was made from a group of 1,019 randomly selected residents. For this a mixture of autosomal, Y-DNA and mt-DNA diagnostic haplogroup markers was used. They found that the original Y-DNA haplogroups have almost completely disappeared. and for 99½. Two thirds of the mt-DNA haplo groups disappeared.
This process has also occurred in the imported population of black slaves, but to a much lesser extent. Their Y-DNA percentage is now half the expected percentage, compared to their mt-DNA percentage of almost 100%. (39)
The conclusion that we can draw from this is that with relatively peaceful domination the male DNA disappears almost completely, but the female DNA is largely preserved. If the latter also disappears, there will be eradication.
Schermopname (2900).png


This lowering of male Y-DNA frequency, diversity (compared to female mt-DNA diversity) also happened around 50,000 years ago (the roll out into EuroAsia) and again strongly 6,000-2,000 BC (in Europe).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25770088
Abstract
It is commonly thought that human genetic diversity in non-African populations was shaped primarily by an out-of-Africa dispersal 50-100 thousand yr ago (kya). Here, we present a study of 456 geographically diverse high-coverage Y chromosome sequences, including 299 newly reported samples. Applying ancient DNA calibration, we date the Y-chromosomal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) in Africa at 254 (95% CI 192-307) kya and detect a cluster of major non-African founder haplogroups in a narrow time interval at 47-52 kya, consistent with a rapid initial colonization model of Eurasia and Oceania after the out-of-Africa bottleneck. In contrast to demographic reconstructions based on mtDNA, we infer a second strong bottleneck in Y-chromosome lineages dating to the last 10 ky. We hypothesize that this bottleneck is caused by cultural changes affecting variance of reproductive success among males.
The story of the many genes of Dzjengis Khan is well known. Perhaps he was "only" keeping up an old tradition of chieftain male genetic competition.




Our genetic history shows imo a continuous process of tribal wars and tribal surpressions, tribal expelling from good habitats.
We should really stop that.
Stopping using the word "race" a good start.
 
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The ancient (greek) view was that a people are tied by having a common language, common culture and common religion. By and large if enough of the three is there i think you can speak of an ethnos/similar. For obvious reasons language is the more stable of those three.
 
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