Dota 2

[OrsonM]

Not to mention HON, LoL & DoTA2 are just copies of the old warcraft mod....

The old Warcraft mod however is something of a work in progress copy of a copy of a copy (if I'd have to describe it's development history). The copyright of DOTA belongs to Blizzard at the moment (everything you make in their map editor belongs to them), but they have decided not to pursue any sort of copyright violation for a number of reasons, all of them unknown to me (the exception seems to be the Dota2 name dispute, which seems to have been settled)

Shame on Blizzard to never have truly pursued the MOBA genre properly, they could had sat down with the kids that made the original mod, but nothing. Blizzard All Stars has been on the backburner for years without nothing to show for.

 

[GoodGame]

The old Warcraft mod however is something of a work in progress copy of a copy of a copy (if I'd have to describe it's development history). The copyright of DOTA belongs to Blizzard at the moment (everything you make in their map editor belongs to them), but they have decided not to pursue any sort of copyright violation for a number of reasons, all of them unknown to me (the exception seems to be the Dota2 name dispute, which seems to have been settled)

Shame on Blizzard to never have truly pursued the MOBA genre properly, they could had sat down with the kids that made the original mod, but nothing. Blizzard All Stars has been on the backburner for years without nothing to show for.

Valve probably paid Blizzard off for the rights, and probably got a non-disclosure statement in the agreement.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/11/blizzard-and-valve-settle-dota-argument-blizzard-dota-is-now-bl/

Really it was about Trademarking the DOTA name, not copyrighting the game. DOTA2 is in no ways really derivative of Warcraft 3 nor the Warcraft 3 engine. So it's not a copyright infringement.

 

[OrsonM]

Valve probably paid Blizzard off for the rights, and probably got a non-disclosure statement in the agreement.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/11/blizzard-and-valve-settle-dota-argument-blizzard-dota-is-now-bl/

Really it was about Trademarking the DOTA name, not copyrighting the game. DOTA2 is in no ways really derivative of Warcraft 3 nor the Warcraft 3 engine. So it's not a copyright infringement.

But everything done in any of the Blizz map editors belongs to blizz (and map makers agree to this willfully... sort of, I mean who reads EULAs anyways). That includes DOTA, which in Valve's case is for whatever reason spelled "Dota", its not an acronym (again, because of the copyright thing). Valve most likely did pay off Blizz.

I'm a little shaky on the whole thing, but I think it's impossible to copyright an entire game. Very early on in the history of videogames there were a few lawsuits that attempted to copyright entire gameplay dynamics, which was found to be impossible. You can copyright the code, lore, art and sounds. But not what goes on in a game (with simpler games being an exception, eg Tetris).

Another reason why Blizzard probably moved against trying to appropriating Defense of The Ancients was it was probably going to be a hindrance to future map makers and a hugely unpopular move for it's fan base. For Blizz DOTA works just fine as a mod.

 

[GoodGame]

But everything done in any of the Blizz map editors belongs to blizz (and map makers agree to this willfully... sort of, I mean who reads EULAs anyways). That includes DOTA, which in Valve's case is for whatever reason spelled "Dota", its not an acronym (again, because of the copyright thing). Valve most likely did pay off Blizz.

I'm a little shaky on the whole thing, but I think it's impossible to copyright an entire game. Very early on in the history of videogames there were a few lawsuits that attempted to copyright entire gameplay dynamics, which was found to be impossible. You can copyright the code, lore, art and sounds. But not what goes on in a game (with simpler games being an exception, eg Tetris).

Another reason why Blizzard probably moved against trying to appropriating Defense of The Ancients was it was probably going to be a hindrance to future map makers and a hugely unpopular move for it's fan base. For Blizz DOTA works just fine as a mod.

The thing is Blizzard might use the EULA to gain rights to the content within the context of the Warcraft game, but not the concepts in DOTA. And also the DOTA name was a trademark of a concept beyond the mod, which blizzard shouldn't automatically own. So use of the trademark was conceivably up for grabs as long as the associated product was reinvented as distinct from Warcraft, which is what Valve sponsored. DOTA2 is a distinct trademark from DOTA even if it maybe implies heredity from DOTA.

The equivalent to saying that Blizzard owns all concepts created in their game's editor is saying that the MicroSoft Word's EULA gives rights to anything created in Word to MS. That is an argument that is not going to fly in court because it rewrites the US constitution. Same for all other softwares.

 

[Crezth]

But everything done in any of the Blizz map editors belongs to blizz (and map makers agree to this willfully... sort of, I mean who reads EULAs anyways). That includes DOTA, which in Valve's case is for whatever reason spelled "Dota", its not an acronym (again, because of the copyright thing). Valve most likely did pay off Blizz.

Not to be unreasonably disagreeable, but EULAs are sort of on tenuous ground when it comes to this sort of thing. Even if it's in the contract you "technically" signed, it's not an agreement made in good faith.

That said, it was definitely settled out of court.

 

[civvver]

Blizz can't copyright the concepts or look and feel of the dota style moba game. You can't copyright look and feel. They can only get a patent on the specific graphic engine or maybe a programming technique they used or a software structure etc. Anyone can make their own clone of any game, as long as you use different names and don't copy a trademarked character's likeness too closely.

 

[civvver]

BTW, just discovered the joy of a Dark Seer + Siren combination.

Which would be what? Can the dark seer replicas attack through siren's song? That's all I could think of.

 

[GoodGame]

Which would be what? Can the dark seer replicas attack through siren's song? That's all I could think of.

It's more about using Siren's song to set up a volley of the team's ultimates/nuke, in general, but the catch with most of the ultimates/nukes is that one way or the other the song will negate them especially instantaneous-type effects (e.g. a stun spell initiated during the song is usually a waste as it is blocked) or provide temporary protection (seconds in the song is seconds of protection from Jakiro's ultimate)) but that can still be helpful for setting up the nukes/ultimates that have continuous effects (e.g. Jakiro's ultimate).

It works with dark seer in that siren iniates, gets ganged up on at close range, than starts her song, dark seer places his ultimate in the best way, then instantly casts the void/blackhole spell a split-second after the song ends to pull the enemy team into the replica wall. But it pretty much works that the whole team can launch nukes/ultimates at that same time for mass chaos (replicates blocking escape, nukes going off, melee, yadda yadda). Made for some good team wipes.

EDIT: the counter seems to a blink escape. AM seems to be able to proc blink before anything else hits, even stuck in the song.


I think ice-wall-type stuns will be blocked from proc'ing if they are cast before the song ends---which seems like a glitch to me. Only verified with Jakiro's 'ice path' though.

 

[GoodGame]

Oh and the Beta just ended:

 

[civvver]

That doesn't seem too dark seer specific, I'd say the counter is a bunch of bkbs! That's pretty much the counter too any really good team ult like tidehunter's, luna's, CM's. Siren is definitely a strong team player, kind of under used. Dark seer is used a lot but I feel more for his iron shell, solo lane pushing than his team fighting ability and he's great at both.

Yep beta done! Get in guys! Game is essentially the same though.

 

[GoodGame]

That doesn't seem too dark seer specific, I'd say the counter is a bunch of bkbs! That's pretty much the counter too any really good team ult like tidehunter's, luna's, CM's. Siren is definitely a strong team player, kind of under used. Dark seer is used a lot but I feel more for his iron shell, solo lane pushing than his team fighting ability and he's great at both.

Yep beta done! Get in guys! Game is essentially the same though.

True about BKB, but a lot of heroes don't take BKB, and it's an expensive item to grind, whereas this tactic can begin as soon as the team levels to 6-7.

 

[Angst]

Oh my god, noob influx post-beta. Are you crazy

edit: I mean, they're actually worse than me

 

[civvver]

Wow guess I'll need to get on and roll some pub 25-0-0 wins! Haven't played in two weeks, been on vacation.

 

[Angst]

just played a pretty difficult game actually.

i mean, the power disparity is really only more underlined than before

 

[civvver]

Did my first non beta game, we rolled em 60-15 in 35 mins. I played disruptor en route to 1-1-28 lol. I thought release was supposed to have better matchmaking. They didnt have a scrub team makeup either, sand king, skele king, shadowfiend, jakiro, sniper. A little carry heavy but plenty of aoe and disables.

 

[Crezth]

"sand king, skele king, shadowfiend, jakiro, sniper"

This is a horrible team. :/

Shadow Fiend and Sniper are two of the worst heroes in the game. Jakiro is legit but both SK's are kinda meh.

edit: probably better than replacement pub team comp though.

 

[Angst]

Shadow Fiend is bad? I remember some traumatic games with him, actually, but I guess that might just have been my own nooby team.

I agree that Sniper is overrated. He's easy to learn, but also easy to counter with a lot of heroes. They just need a little bulk. Spirit breaker - albeit another bad hero - is hilarious against him.

 

[Crezth]

The problem with Shadow Fiend is that, although he has good damage gain and can dish a lot of hurt in the midgame, he has no stuns, slows, disables, or negative buffs of note. His ultimate can be a big factor in a midgame teamfight, but he's so squishy that he is easily rubbed out if he can't get the jump on his opponents. He wants to be mid but he has trouble ganking (not a terrific chaser without Shadow Blade, a 3000-gold item). He's basically a hero that goes mid and farms with a TP scroll until somebody dives an ally - this is not the makings of a strong mid hero.

That said, all heroes - even Shadow Fiend - can be viable in public games. I was simply taking umbrage at the conviction that Shadow Fiend and Sniper were anything but the makings of a scrub team. ^^

Usually squishy heroes that do high damage which are good have something to make up for their weakness - like a non-channeled teamfight ult (Faceless Void, Mirana, Luna) or ridiculous escapes (Slark, Phantom Lancer). Sniper and Shadow Fiend have their uses but if you're looking for a ranged damage dealing hard carry, Drow is a marginally better choice (way better at ganking and the area silence is OP). If you're looking for someone to own the mid lane and then bust skulls in the mid game with attack damage, then go for Outworld Devourer. But I admit I'm splitting hairs.

PS. Spirit Breaker is actually pretty OP this patch. His problem was a lack of reliable damage output. But the buff to his Q makes him a monster in the mid game. You can charge through an entire team and look at all of them being stunned/interrupted for 1.6 seconds and you can basically smash down any hero in just a few seconds flat.

PPS. I've been in many games where my team has been owned by a Sniper. Maybe there's something there. But my theory is that people don't understand he dies to like two nukes.

 

[Angst]

Spirit Breaker is good at ganking. Really good at it. If fed just a little bit during the laning phase (Acquiring 1-2 kills or assists which is not at all impossible - you just need a ranged disabler to harass your opponents while you farm etc., then about level 5-6 you can start killing people without problems, it's actually quite easy...) he can roam and gank for the rest of the game.

But the teamfights. Oh, the team fights...

He's also easy to counter, actually. Just hide behind your tanks.

But the thing is... I've only found him good when people weren't able to counter him. Ie public games. And when people roam alone too much while he's in the game. Ie public games. I'm certain he's terrible at high level play, but I can't speak for those, because I am not that great with him. All I know is that I've never found an enemy Spirit Breaker threatening, even when they knew what they were doing. He's very easy to play around.

 

[civvver]

"sand king, skele king, shadowfiend, jakiro, sniper"

This is a horrible team. :/

Shadow Fiend and Sniper are two of the worst heroes in the game. Jakiro is legit but both SK's are kinda meh.

edit: probably better than replacement pub team comp though.

It's a good pub team because it's balanced ranged/melee dmg, has a tank and multiple disablers and two amazing team fighters. Both sks are really good if played right. Shadowfiend is really good, even if he's a one trick pony. Surround him with supports and he's awesome.

But I was basically making the claim we weren't fighting 5 carries ie a team that should get facerolled based on comp alone.

I don't like playing spirit breaker because of his weakness but I *hate* playing against him because of his strengths. Seems like every time I vs him I'm playing support like lina or lion and he ganks me non stop. Playing as him though is equally annoying because you'll call a gank and your team is slow in backing you up and you die. He's frustrating all around.