[C3C] Earth Fantasy Mod(EFM)

[tjs282]

I also fell into this mistake, to this day i don't know the right solution.

"Hardwoods" means timber cut from trees such as oak, elm, teak, mahogany, etc.

(whereas "hard wood" is more likely to be encountered in e.g. pornographic films...)

What is the English name of this mushroom?
scientific name: Boletus edulis
in the game she invented a new species of cave boletus/cave porcini mushrooms
which name is correct?
cave porcini (mushroom) or cave boletus

I gave the adjective ‘cave’ to this mushroom because dwarves can find it in caves, mines.
someone had laughed good at this before: cave porcini

"porcini" is a specific type of mushroom, but wasn't/ isn't a commonly used word in everyday English (it's from Italian).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boletus_edulis

In the context of EFM, I think calling the Dwarf-resource "Cave mushroom" would be perfectly understandable.

This kind of phantom resource error persists, but civilizations will not be able to build a given wonder until the possibility of building that particular miracle appears in the development tree after the raw material appears.

I know that there is still a chance that you can build a civilization that does not have the given raw material, but at least this is not the cause of this mood-destroying event at the beginning of the game.

it will be a big job because it will stretch the development tree screen.

I don’t want to cut it out of strategic and luxury resources, it pretty much has to cut it in half because special resources are needed to develop some species (e.g. freshly buried tomb of the undead are needed to build zombie units).

Luxury resources can also act as strategic resources (in terms of being required for units, buildings Wonders, etc.) so another possibility might be to make Wonders require specific combinations of Lux + Strat-resources.

For example, IIRC, you've got multiple 'gem'-type Strategic resources (rubies, amethysts, emeralds, etc.) which could be replaced by resource-combos of e.g.

"Sapphires" = (generic) Gems-resource (Lux) + Water-mana (Strat)
"Diamonds" = Gems + Air-mana
"Emeralds" = Gems + Earth-mana
"Rubies" = Gems + Blood-mana
etc...

Doing something like this might/would also allow you to restrict specific Wonders to specific (groups of) races — just like we previously discussed regarding e.g. Worker-jobs.

And since EFM is played on a prebuilt map, you also have the possibility of deciding where all resources are placed, which will also help to regulate who can build what, and where — and possibly also when.

For example, if you set a specific Wonder to require its resources to be within a city's radius, you can also restrict that Wonder to specific location(s) — which will then encourage/require the human player (at least!), to think strategically about who they should be attacking next, in order to obtain control over a city/location where they will be able to build their tribe's Wonders.

 

[unartis]

how do you see it to just reduce the amount of resources on the map itself for the beginning?I play for the dwarves as you already understood...I kill magicians, elves and nomads at the very beginning of the game, otherwise they are waiting for me with cities and do not allow me to build.on this small territory, I have 8 horses, 7 mana, 7 trees, and so on..in any other moge on the entire map God forbid there are 5 units of iron catch the idea?

There seem to be a lot of resources at the beginning of the game, but most of them will disappear from the map soon enough because that's how it's set.
there may be a resource that I’m going to take back a bit, but so far I’ve had to put more of some resources because they ran out so quickly that a few laps after connecting to the road, nothing more was left.
I invented this concept because I didn’t like the fact that resources remained in the field or plain after deforestation that provided raw material for several eras, even after the disappearance of the forest (e.g., hardwood).
Hardwood can only reappear in a forest or ancient forest, i.e. in a place where the forest has not been cut down.

There is more of the iron resource on the map because not having access to it is perhaps the most important for any civilization that is not an elf or a dark elf. Iron is an indispensable accessory for workers' processes, because it is also needed for logging and for the construction of dwarf mines.

Unfortunately, I was able to solve the iron in such a way that it was always visible to civilizations so that elves and dark elves could not access it because I did not want them to be able to cut down trees.
I was also forced to make obsidian visible so that the two forest species would not suffer disadvantage over the other species to receive obsidian late, which is a resource for many of their indispensable units.
maybe it could disappear from the map sooner than an exhausted raw material and then I'll check out more

These important resources could perhaps disappear from the map sooner than an exhausted raw material, or reappear on the map, so it would run out even if a civilization had more of it, which would increase the competitive situation.

 

[unartis]

"Hardwoods" means timber cut from trees such as oak, elm, teak, mahogany, etc.

Yes it was okay, i had no problem with that, only the mushroom caused the headache.

For example, IIRC, you've got multiple 'gem'-type Strategic resources (rubies, amethysts, emeralds, etc.) which could be replaced by resource-combos of e.g.

"Sapphires" = (generic) Gems-resource (Lux) + Water-mana (Strat)
"Diamonds" = Gems + Air-mana
"Emeralds" = Gems + Earth-mana
"Rubies" = Gems + Blood-mana
etc...

I think it's a good idea to use this special resource combination to build a wonders with a given combination.
a condition for building several special wonders, on this will be resource combinations.

Resource mergers would not solve this phantom resource error either, because even if I could narrow down 70 resources to 50 resources, there would still be more than 32 resources.
I’m sorry that when the game developers gave us the option to place more resources on the map, they didn’t think of exactly the error that occurs after placing more resources.

 

[unartis]

Doing something like this might/would also allow you to restrict specific Wonders to specific (groups of) races — just like we previously discussed regarding e.g. Worker-jobs.

And since EFM is played on a prebuilt map, you also have the possibility of deciding where all resources are placed, which will also help to regulate who can build what, and where — and possibly also when.

For example, if you set a specific Wonder to require its resources to be within a city's radius, you can also restrict that Wonder to specific location(s) — which will then encourage/require the human player (at least!), to think strategically about who they should be attacking next, in order to obtain control over a city/location where they will be able to build their tribe's Wonders.

I also like it as an idea to have resource-dependent miracles that may be available to a certain group or species.

 

[Civinator]

unartis, please don´t forget, that in my last post I only answered the question what is triggering the 'ghost resources bug'. I haven´t said, that this bug is really the source of the problem in your scenario.

Please write, what is the specific problem you have in that mod. If it should be, that other civs can see strat./luxury resources from the start of the game, that only should be enabled by techs later in the game, please don´t forget, that the AI civs can see all strat./lux. resources always from the start of the game - so this would be a problem only for the human player (edit: and additionally this is no problem triggered by that bug). The ghost resources bug adds strat./lux. resources to cities without using the trade net. In many cases that bug is difficult to detect, especially when you are looking at cities, that are also connected to that resource via the trade net. Per example in the much played mod 'Rise and Rule' in more than one decade nobody had detected, that this mod had that bug, too.

I still have the June 2020 version of your scenario on my pc. Please give a link to the last update and the current biq of your scenario, so I can have a closer look on the specific problem.

 

[unartis]

unartis, please don´t forget, that in my last post I only answered the question what is triggering the 'ghost resources bug'. I haven´t said, that this bug is really the source of the problem in your scenario.

Please write, what is the specific problem you have in that mod. If it should be, that other civs can see strat./luxury resources from the start of the game, that only should be enabled by techs later in the game, please don´t forget, that the AI civs can see all strat./lux. resources always from the start of the game - so this would be a problem only for the human player. The ghost resources bug adds strat./lux. resources to cities without using the trade net. In many cases that bug is difficult to detect, especially when you are looking at cities, that are also connected to that resource via the trade net. Per example in the much played mod 'Rise and Rule' in more than one decade nobody had detected, that this mod had that bug, too.

I still have the June 2020 version of your scenario on my pc. Please give a link to the last update and the current biq of your scenario, so I can have a closer look on the specific problem.

@Civinator
I am now looking at the very useful information you have linked about this phantom resource bug:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/keeping-resources-in-check-no-phantom-resources.391951/page-2

I received feedback that the mode's resources appear to be available sooner before they are discovered, which is why certain miracles are built at the beginning of the game that could be built after the raw material is released.

I found an interesting description of the problem on the shared link you showed me.

3) The chart I made is arranged in columns, if the number of resources you have is 32 or less, you have no issues. So if you had 128 resources you would be 4 columns wide and the rules would still apply, you can only have one strategic or luxury resource per row.

I ask, does this mean that if I place bonus resources on squares 32, 64, 96, 128, etc., or only one strategic or luxury resource is placed on every 4th resource square, will the phantom resource error be eliminated?

If I follow the rule above, if I go beyond the rule of using 32 strategic and luxury resources, do I think this bug will not occur?


Earth Fantasy Mod (pre)beta dowloads:
from Google drive:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/earth-fantasy-mod-efm.28250/

 

[Civinator]

I received feedback that the mode's resources appear to be available sooner before they are discovered, which is why certain miracles are built at the beginning of the game that could be built after the raw material is released.

a) If the resources appear sooner as set in the resources list of cities to construct buildings or units, this is a problem of the phantom resources bug.
b) If the resources can be seen earlier as expected on the map by the human player, it is not a matter of that bug, but an otherwise wrong setting in the editor.

As you write about about 'miracles' that can been built much too early in the game, I suppose here it is a matter of a) => the phantom resources bug

You cannot have a total of more than 32 strat./lux. resources without running into that bug. Pounder is speaking about a total of more than 32 resources with a maximum of 32 strat./lux. resources and the additional bonus resources. You should read the table in that thread about placing the 32 strat./lux. resources in a total of 64, 96 and so on resources of the mod/scenario in that way (32+ 32 bonus resources, 32 + 64 bonus resources and so on). I gave such a pattern in my first linked post for placing 32 strat./lux. resources within the standard C3C resources (where the first 32 resources slots in the editor are used for a mixture of strat., lux. resources and bonus resources).

Edit: I had a look with the Quintillus editor into the current biq of your scenario. Your current biq is still massively hampered by that bug. The Quintillus editor gives a message about the first finding of that bug in the edited biq when this biq will be saved. In the case of your biq, that the resources Air Mana and Honey are triggering that bug. If you would set the resource Air Mana to be a bonus resource, that editor would show the message, that the resource Earth Mana and the next lux./strat. resource after Honey will trigger that bug (and so on).

Btw.: So having nothing to do with that bug, I also want to hint to the fact, that this wonderful editor gives an analysis about the occurence of the resource on the analyzed map (p.e. in the biq of your scenario, the resource Air Mana is placed 56 times on the map of your scenario).

 

[unartis]

a) If the resources appear sooner as set in the resources list of cities to construct buildings or units, this is a problem of the phantom resources bug.
b) If the resources can be seen earlier as expected on the map by the human player, it is not a matter of that bug, but an otherwise wrong setting in the editor.

As you write about about 'miracles' that can been built much too early in the game, I suppose here it is a matter of a) => the phantom resources bug

@Civinator

Thanks for the detailed description.

The first reason will be 'a)', so they are not shown on the map before, but in cities not connected to the capital. What I notice about this error is that this phantom resource error occurs in the city when a worker builds a road within the city radius.

You cannot have a total of more than 32 strat./lux. resources without running into that bug. Pounder is speaking about a total of more than 32 resources with a maximum of 32 strat./lux. resources and the additional bonus resources. You should read the table in that thread about placing the 32 strat./lux. resources in a total of 64, 96 and so on resources of the mod/scenario in that way (32+ 32 bonus resources, 32 + 64 bonus resources and so on). I gave such a pattern in my first linked post for placing 32 strat./lux. resources within the standard C3C resources (where the first 32 resources slots in the editor are used for a mixture of strat., lux. resources and bonus resources).

I was thinking that this phantom resource bug could be exploited positively.
I just don’t know if you include all the resources when the error occurs or just the ones that were added in addition to the 32 resources?
This is an important issue because if this error occurs after the 33rd strategic or luxury resource, I would put in the first 33 places the ones I don’t want civilizations to see and use at all as a phantom resource.
In the next place I would do those whose importance does not so much affect certain conditions of victory.
In this new compilation, I would put gems and other important luxury resources, special resources assigned to species, and strategic resources assigned to good or bad things at the top of the line.
The overall strategic resources would be at the end, so the hardwood, stone, clay, etc. would be at the end of the line, which are definitely after the 33rd resource.

Even if this phantom resource error occurs, I imagine it would only affect resources that do not greatly affect the game.(This idea could work if the first 32 strategic, luxury resources are not visible among phantom resources.)

There are very few bonus resources on the map because they are currently the same as the luxury resource.
Total resources: 95
Strategic: 59
Luxury: 18
bonus: 18
(later, even a scorpion can be a strategic resource!)

 

[unartis]

An bug similar to the phantom resource error also appears on the Citizens screen, if we add more urban sessions, there was also a slip that occurred graphically, which I was able to solve with invisible 'inhabitant', but it doesn’t seem to be completely. but this is another topic.

 

[Civinator]

I uploaded the last update of your scenario and than I loaded the 1175 AD save file by using the multiplayer tool and setting each civ to be played by the human player. The second civ in that setting showed the problem. The city of Edhevras is building the Topaz Ring, as that resource is poping up in that city - but that city has no real access to that resource. The same is true for several other strategic resources that should be in the city, so the city has no real access to those resources.



When the road, that is connecting the Mithril resource to that city is pillaged, the Topas resource and many other resources are disappearing in that city. The city still can build the Topaz Ring, as it is sufficient if the resource is available in the city when the construction of the building was started. If the construction of the Topaz Ring would be changed to another building, the Topaz Ring couldn´t been built any longer, as the phantom resource did dissappear in that city.



Phantom and ghost resources - this is all fitting very well to Halloween.

Btw.: For additional specialist citizens you can find some graphics in the RAR mod. I cut out those additional specialists in the RARR mod, as the AI has no clue how to handle those additional specialists and therefore the use of those additional specialists only favours the human player and in my eyes is something next to cheating.

 

[unartis]

I uploaded the last update of your scenario and than I loaded the 1175 AD save file by using the multiplayer tool and setting each civ to be played by the human player. The second civ in that setting showed the problem. The city of Edhevras is building the Topaz Ring, as that resource is poping up in that city - but that city has no real access to that resource. The same is true for several other strategic resources that should be in the city, so the city has no real access to those resources.

@Civinator

If I see clearly in the image you uploaded, the city will have access to these strategic resources:
(I write next to the resources which space the resources occupy in the editor, I marked the errors in colored letters)
chaos goat(94)
lembas(42)
blood(36)
mithril(30)
centaur hut(23)
charcoal(10)
hardwood(4)

Among the luxury resources you can see within the city is the
citrine crystal(55)
topaz(62)
dragon tooth(68)


Marked in red indicates a phantom resource error, I don’t understand why the error marked in blue occurs because the elf civilization shouldn’t see the blood, or is it also a phantom resource error?

Worrying is the many phantom resources that can be seen within a city.



I will create a numbering for the resources.pcx file to make it easier to discover the location of the phantom resource:

...as soon as i have a little more time i will climb into the topic better.

You cannot have a total of more than 32 strat./lux. resources without running into that bug. Pounder is speaking about a total of more than 32 resources with a maximum of 32 strat./lux. resources and the additional bonus resources. You should read the table in that thread about placing the 32 strat./lux. resources in a total of 64, 96 and so on resources of the mod/scenario in that way (32+ 32 bonus resources, 32 + 64 bonus resources and so on). I gave such a pattern in my first linked post for placing 32 strat./lux. resources within the standard C3C resources (where the first 32 resources slots in the editor are used for a mixture of strat., lux. resources and bonus resources).

I see that it completely confuses resources, so the first 32 strategic and luxury resources may also look like phantom resources, making it unnecessary to rewrite the line of resources in the current system.
if it were a mix of bonus-strategic-luxury resources at the rate you described, then if I understand correctly, this error can be handled somewhat.

When the road, that is connecting the Mithril resource to that city is pillaged, the Topas resource and many other resources are disappearing in that city. The city still can build the Topaz Ring, as it is sufficient if the resource is available in the city when the construction of the building was started. If the construction of the Topaz Ring would be changed to another building, the Topaz Ring couldn´t been built any longer, as the phantom resource did dissappear in that city.

Yes, this is what I have already experienced, so that the development started during the time of the once available resource can be carried out, even if the resource disappears in the meantime.

It is possible that by tying wonders to place, I can prevent civilizations from building wonders ahead of time.

 

[Civinator]

About the phantom resources bug there exists no documentation by Firaxis. All I wrote is based on experiences by Civ 3 modders. So it can happen, that with this bug even new knowledge can appear.

You can use Sima Qian´s Multiplayer Tool yourself for analyzing save files about phantom resources appearing in the cities of your scenario. You find this tool here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/multiplayer-tool-play-scenarios-up-to-31-players.456432/ - or if you have installed the inofficial C3C expansion CCM2.50 it is a part of the installation of that mod.

What I notice about this error is that this phantom resource error occurs in the city when a worker builds a road within the city radius.

Yes, the city must have access in its tradenet to a strat./lux. resource that is triggering the phantom resources bug.

I don’t understand why the error marked in blue occurs because the elf civilization shouldn’t see the blood, or is it also a phantom resource error? Worrying is the many phantom resources that can be seen within a city.

What makes that bug so extreme nasty is, that you can have many phantom resources and even chains of phantom resources in a city. Edit: 4 + 32 = 36.

I will create a numbering for the resources.pcx file to make it easier to discover the location of the phantom resource

Yes, this can help, but please don´t forget, that the placement in the editor is the decisive factor and not not the placement in the resources graphics file - and the numbering in the editor starts with zero.

 

[unartis]

Btw.: For additional specialist citizens you can find some graphics in the RAR mod. I cut out those additional specialists in the RARR mod, as the AI has no clue how to handle those additional specialists and therefore the use of those additional specialists only favours the human player and in my eyes is something next to cheating.

Then the machine doesn't use these settings in the classic game either?
Because of the graphic look, I decided to add to this palette.
The employment of citizens is almost the same for different species. There are minor differences with which I wanted to strengthen the character of the particular species.

Urban occupations that are the same as the epic game, only each species can create them individually, which can enhance the gaming experience:
They create happy faces in the city, all the same value as the epic game anyway:
Elf Singer(elves),
Darkelf Healing(dark elves),
Slave(orcs),
Sacrificial Priest(dark orc and goblin)
Goldsmith(dwarves and chaos dwarf)
Jester(Human knights),
Troubadour(Human wizards)
Shipwright(Human pirates)
Skeleton(undeads)


...and so on, the other areas also have urban laborers specific to the special species...

differences:
For example, a dwarf treasurer provides more income than an employed urban dweller of similar ability of other species, fairground stunt (hobbits) gives two happy faces a place for city dwellers.

I still need to strengthen the elves and dark elves in this option.

 

[Civinator]

Then the machine doesn't use these settings in the classic game either? Because of the graphic look, I decided to add to this palette. The employment of citizens is almost the same for different species. There are minor differences with which I wanted to strengthen the character of the particular species.

What I wrote here is about the upgrading of specialists. Level 1 specialists are - as far as I know - used by the AI. I haven´t checked it for civspecific specialists.
I attache a screenshot of RAR specialists (p.e. the professor is an upgrade of the philosopher) and the 'filler specialists' who are needed for the graphics.

 

[unartis]

Yes, this can help, but please don´t forget, that the placement in the editor is the decisive factor and not not the placement in the resources graphics file - and the numbering in the editor starts with zero.

Then I can start tis change after mid-November, because until then I have busy at work.
Since I do not want to reduce strategic and luxury resources, I will study all the options that can help with this phantom resource error.

What makes that bug so extreme nasty is, that you can have many phantom resources and even chains of phantom resources in a city. Edit: 4 + 32 = 36.

I was afraid of that...

Yes, this can help, but please don´t forget, that the placement in the editor is the decisive factor and not not the placement in the resources graphics file - and the numbering in the editor starts with zero.

Ok, I'll take it into account

 

[unartis]

What I wrote here is about the upgrading of specialists. Level 1 specialists are - as far as I know - used by the AI. I haven´t checked it for civspecific specialists.
I attache a screenshot of RAR specialists (p.e. the professor is an upgrade of the philosopher) and the 'filler specialists' who are needed for the graphics.

Is this the mod you made?
Apparently this is not in the epic game either, there are not many mods to take advantage of this opportunity.

 

[Civinator]

Is this the mod you made?
Apparently this is not in the epic game either, there are not many mods to take advantage of this opportunity.

No, Rise and Rule (RAR) is one of the oldest and best mods for C3C. You can find it here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rise-and-rule-for-civ3-conquests.100144/

With RARR I only made a big graphical update of that mod and later, after receiving the permission by many of the old RAR creators, I added some concepts from my mod CCM to RARR. I gave the old creators of RAR (and its predecessor DyP) the proper credits in post one of the RARR thread.

 

[unartis]

Hi all,
I’m here again, I can deal with mod issues now.

 

[unartis]

No, Rise and Rule (RAR) is one of the oldest and best mods for C3C. You can find it here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rise-and-rule-for-civ3-conquests.100144/

@Civinator
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out

The nitty-gritty cold facts

200 techs
13 governments
100 Improvements
67 Great Wonders
36 Small Wonders
14 Specialist Citizen types
52 Resources
340 Units (including flavor units)
lots of changes and improvements over the Double Your Pleasure mod.

The mode describes using 52 resources, is there a phantom error?

 

[unartis]

@Civinator
The link doesn't work, it takes you to another website:

http ://ww1.3ddownloads.com/