Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
also aelonists are incabable of warring aelonists because reasons
End of Empires - N3S III
- Thread starter North King
- Start date
Nah. It's more that there weren't a lot of Aitahist states and that we were (and still are) geographically dispersed. I could really only fight one other Aitahist state within reason and for a bunch of reasons - not least religion - we're close allies.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
Edited, it was miswritten. 
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Incapable is a terrible way to view it. Heavily frowned upon is more like it. The foundation of the Faith is one of peace and tolerance, not conflict. Murder and war are, for this reason, not celebrated aspects of the Faith, but necessary for the defense of it. Some people view it differently, but almost no one wants to be murdered or to murder (which is why, unlike the Zeeks, Aelonists didn't massacre anyone in the Hymn). Aggressive wars are extremely uncool, which is why the Halyrate functions partly as a self-defense mechanism for the Faith and to mediate conflicts between the various Orders. No one wants the Faithful to stab each other in the back, as it doesn't give us anything but a degradation to the level of Ardavan warmongering. Exceptions to the rule happen, but usually for good reason other than "my nobility wants more land."
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
because after 100 years of North King-directed expansion, continuation of that practice the very next year is completely unrealistic yea
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
surely, it's just a tad weird that luckymoose was so friendly towards me before the latest update - and afterwards he derides me for having ereithaler do exactly what it had been doing for a century. it's like he paid no attention to the et
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Alright, we're just going to get endless apologia and retconning along with typical Luckymoose attempts to tell everyone else what to do, so this is no longer worth it.
You aren't the sole arbiter of what Maninism and Aelonism are. You're one hierarchy within a diverse thought-system.
You aren't the sole arbiter of what Maninism and Aelonism are. You're one hierarchy within a diverse thought-system.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
So who were you directing the questions at? Not the two people who contributed 99.99% of the content to Maninism and Aelonism? I'm speaking on Perfy's behalf using the vast amount of information he has posted publicly. If you don't wish to listen to the actual providers of content you're questioning, then don't question it? When I ask questions about Ardavan, I ask you. Should I ask Grandkhan instead? I mean, he's contributed as much to it as you, right? You're not the creator and main producer of Ardavan related content, right?
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I'm just annoyed at blatantly political attempts to pretend that differences between Maninism and Aelonism don't exist, and that the faith can somehow magically be "bottom up" but also have everyone agree about everything.
I'm also going to point out you ignoring the fierce religious competition between Maninists and Aelonists over the ET, as well as Kintyra leading the Immolation, of course.
I'm also going to point out you ignoring the fierce religious competition between Maninists and Aelonists over the ET, as well as Kintyra leading the Immolation, of course.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Maybe you should educate yourself on exactly what Alonites and Aelonists are in the Maninist definition, or how the Harada were introduced to the Maninist faith. Or how Kintyra occurred and because of that the Maninist faith evolved in reaction. You can pretend there is a massive difference between Aelonists and Alonites, but there isn't. The differences in Orders, sure, but those two groups, no. Read the stats if you want, or the wiki, or ask NK. The Interlocutors and the Sequora of various Orders all serve a purpose to maintain that what you think is possible is not. But whatever, ignore 350 years of mutual evolution if you want.
EDIT:
The Alonites as defined by the stats:
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
I think its fair to say that differences exist between the two schools of what is increasingly a single religious space, and tensions are present at various secular and perhaps even religious points within the whole complex. But the point I think lucky is making is that those things are not essential to the religions structure (which is hierarchically and doctrinally loose) and its not really your place to go start defining how aelonism/maninism work and relate to eachother when its not your "thing".
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
My point is that Lucky saying something to Daft as presumptuous as "oh, the Faith doesn't war each other, it would NEVER do that" when blatantly ignoring the conquest of Tarvaen and Anhalter just next door strikes me as somewhere between disingenuous and remarkably self-serving, since Lucky obviously has an interest in the remaining Ethir states being quiet and obedient.
"Pathists" slaughter "Pathists" all the live long day, and any attempt to paper that over is ignoring history both ancient and modern.
"Pathists" slaughter "Pathists" all the live long day, and any attempt to paper that over is ignoring history both ancient and modern.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Or you could be taking exceptions to be the rule while misunderstanding the situation in Tarvaen. Pathists don't slaughter Pathists very often at all. The key here is slaughter, as in murder or massacre or genocide or persecute. Usurpation of authority does not constitute a slaughter. Cause that's what happened, the Sadorishi literally just assumed control. I mean, it is obvious to me your game in this. "Lucky is telling you what to do, are you gonna let him do that?" It really isn't helpful when people need questions answered about the Faith and I'm the current residing expert on the subject. Or you could carry on ignoring me, since you've proven you don't even know all that much about the Faith or politics on Athis you're clearly the best person to tell Daft or Angst how things work. It really spits on my work and I don't appreciate it.
m.t.cicero
Good Kid
Oooh people making arguments OOC that would benefit them IC how novel 
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I'm not spitting on your work, I'm saying that the way you've been (re)interpreting your religion is inherently naive; though simultaneously cynical in that it's designed to make you look like a victim.
The context of that first Professor of the Faith story that you wrote, by the way, didn't describe the murder of potential Aitahs as an isolated incident. The fact that your priest was writing to Athsarion, and the manner in which he killed the little girl, indicated both that he had approval for what he did at higher levels in the Aelonist hierarchy, and that he was a skilled practitioner of his trade. That obviously wasn't the first time he'd killed a little girl, unless you're writing a complete psychopath. This, combined with earlier statements you'd made to that effect in #nes, is the basis for me accusing you of retconning this.
But it goes further than that.
You don't make genocide or mass murder a religiously sanctioned policy? Fine, neither do I. But you're absolutely no different from Ardavan in that conquest is an essential tool of your policy. You organized a crusader state to achieve your aims, for heaven's sake. And conquest isn't peaceful. People can and will die, and if they decide to rise up against you in armed rebellion, you *would* slaughter them if you had to. Don't try and imply otherwise.
This ignores that people fight for political reasons, for reasons of language and resources, of power and self-aggrandizement. Those are common human emotions that the mere fact of worshiping Aelona doesn't override. I would be AWED if the Ethir states didn't take up arms against the Halyrate this turn, not because of anything having to do with religion, but because having your governments and local leaders overthrown is NOT POPULAR. Your counterexample is "well no, no fighting because Aelona, and Athis so peaceful." BS. Athis has been a battleground for a thousand years; read a book.
Also, since you're going on about papering over all the clear and obvious differences between Maninism and Aelonism, how do you contextualize the Sadorishi fighting alongside the Zalkephai during the last turn? That's a clear example of Pathists killing Pathists in cold blood, and it happened just last turn. Do you presuppose that conquest is a peaceful endeavor? That the fall of Anhalter was free of bloody casualties? Again, Pathists killing Pathists. Ten years and the internecine religious strife has already littered the floor with bodies.
Aelona's whole life and ascension to power was all about manipulating the available military forces to increase her status, first in Nech and then among the Savirai, as well as using those forces against those who opposed her. You want to lie about her being a happy lovey-dovey little bundle of fun, fine. But modern Aelonism is covered in blood, and it will have to cover itself in blood more if it wants to win. The very avatar of Maninist triumph and success is a warrior who crushed ALL before him, Savirai followers of the Third Aitah who, in this day and age, could probably pass for Alonites since you've decided to stretch the definitions so far. (They worshiped Manin too, jsyk.)
Pathists aren't uniquely peaceful, and any arguments otherwise are just propaganda, which belongs better in the IC sphere than the OOC one.
TLDR, this is a convenient lie. The Sadorishi don't believe it, and Javan didn't either.
And for that matter, neither does the High Ward of Athsarion or the High Ward of Sirasona.
Personally I agree, but I guess you're just not a REAL Aelonist by Lucky's definition.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Because religion can't change in four hundred years of pressure from multiple sides? I guess I should ignore all the work both Perfy and I put into it cause the almighty Thlayli feels he knows it better than we.
I never described who he talked to or why he did it, other than he was acting on behalf of someone (200 years ago now). You're not allowed to assume it is a conspiracy of the High Ward of current, or that any of the cast knows about it. Maybe I was saving it to be revealed as part of my arc as an underground screwjob, but Thlayli knows more about my story than me, the writer. It wasn't the first time Ognacar killed a child, no, that was the point of the story. It doesn't mean you can assume ALL Aelonists are in on this. That's just ridiculous.
You're assuming a lot about the motivations of the conflict outside the stated goals, which were to liberate a persecuted minority. You're ignoring pleas for truce following the invasion. You're ignoring the state sanctioned care of the Zeek population. People did die and will continue to die, but that's not to say Aelonism is in favor of doing it.
Why would the Ethir rise up against the Halyrate? What could they possibly hope to gain in such a conflict? It is a fly against a giant, quite literally, and does nothing but destroy the Ethir state. I'm not sure why you'd be pushing for them to do so. It isn't like the Halyrate is the one violently invading these states, as the updates and all other evidence shows. The Halyrate is simply assuming control of territory, whereas Ereithaler is doing the invasions and the subjugation of neighboring states through violent conquest. Both Alonites and Sadorishi have made their intentions of non-violence fairly open. They threatened force, but quite easily didn't have to use it because the Halyrate doesn't work that way. But I'll forgive you because you're backed into a corner and trying to make me look bad.
Sadorishi assistance to the Zeeks was supposed to be a secret, but was discovered by Aelonist forces and shot back to Sirasona immediately. They were doing it for multiple reasons, not the least of which was to prove they weren't Accan puppets. Their contributions to the defense of Sarkanda were rather minor and when discovered were devastating for their public image in the Halyrate. Anhalter was not free of casualties, but the Alonites were just absorbing land. The same thing happened in Tarvaen, where the Sadorishi bullied their way in and the monarchy there took half the country and joined the Alonites when his power was usurped. It is all in the update.
Actually her life had very little to do with conquest. She assisted Khatai with Nechekt, to buy peace for her cousins and potential assistance in reclaiming Cyve from the Exatai influence. Once in the desert she had no power over military forces, and when she fled to Brunn she did not raise armies or go on conquest sprees. She peacefully converted the people through healing miracles and such. But you can pretend to know what you think you know if you want.
Javan did not crush. Javan defended. I did not dispute military force in defense of the Faith, as the purpose of the Halyr is that exact role. Javan, the man who you wish to support as a warmonger, is hilariously the very man, with his companions, who made the steps to accept Aitah into the Faith and establish the beginnings of modern Maninism.
Unless you look at the concept of the Halyrate, the doctrines, the Seniar, the Interlocutors, the Concourse, the Haradim, the reason the Sadorishi lost power overnight when they sponsored the famous burn the witch speech, etc.
You'd be wrong, but we've already established that.
By you spitting on me defining what a real Aelonist is, you are denying me any credibility. It isn't like I'm an inside man on this, or anything.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Dude, it's fine if you want to claim something as a religious doctrine, but when you try to extrapolate it to the behavior of millions of humans, not all of whom follow your rules, it makes you look like a bully.
BTW, "assuming control of territory" sounds a little Stalinist. You should rethink that turn of phrase.
"Don't worry, we won't kill you, because we're really peaceful. As long as you don't resist. Then you know, we'll kill you."
BTW, "assuming control of territory" sounds a little Stalinist. You should rethink that turn of phrase.
"Don't worry, we won't kill you, because we're really peaceful. As long as you don't resist. Then you know, we'll kill you."
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
If you're going to take this as a joke and namecall, you're doing us no favors. This entire argument has been you trying to derail my explanation of the Faith, the history, etc. I don't appreciate it. It really pisses me off. I have done a lot of work with Perfectionist and have spent many hours studying the TRUCK LOADS of information he left behind so I can be certain I'm not wrong. You're making the both of us seem worthless. I am unhappy with this and I don't know why you're doing it.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I'm just saying that your statement that the "Faith" (which is not one Faith) is uniquely peaceful is not true. I provided lots of historical examples showing that the 'Faith' 'assumes control' by force when it needs to. Aelonists and Maninists make war and kill people at just about the same rate as anyone else on the planet. And they do so both aggressively and defensively.
And I'm trying to make a distinction between Aelonism and Aelonists. Since Ereithaler is an Aelonist state, and it's, in your words, "doing the invasion and subjugation of neighboring states", that would imply that Aelonists are not uniquely peaceful, nor do they act in lockstep like robots, because people are different, and amazingly, different people within the same religion have different goals.
I'm not arguing with you about what the Faith is, I'm saying there's a dichotomy between what Aelonist priests say and what Aelonist people do.
I'm quite unclear on exactly the distinction between Ereithaler's 'violent conquest' and your 'assuming control'. Bit of a thin gray line there, and to me they seem the same. But I understand how churchmen like to be holier than thou.
And I'm trying to make a distinction between Aelonism and Aelonists. Since Ereithaler is an Aelonist state, and it's, in your words, "doing the invasion and subjugation of neighboring states", that would imply that Aelonists are not uniquely peaceful, nor do they act in lockstep like robots, because people are different, and amazingly, different people within the same religion have different goals.
I'm not arguing with you about what the Faith is, I'm saying there's a dichotomy between what Aelonist priests say and what Aelonist people do.
I'm quite unclear on exactly the distinction between Ereithaler's 'violent conquest' and your 'assuming control'. Bit of a thin gray line there, and to me they seem the same. But I understand how churchmen like to be holier than thou.
