England

[jma22tb]

It depends how you start with England though.

Progress with a food trade route to London and Great Library will give you plenty of science to compete for tech leader.

If you beeline Mathematics and Writing, you can spy on the first CS you meet, get your alliance from emissary, and move the spy to the next CS, rinse, repeat.

Furthermore, making other civs mad right away could be bad unless you can wup them with your navy.

Korea's not guaranteed in every game unless you specifically bring them in to steal their tech xD.

 

[Taikavarpu]

Because of the -20% RCS from Logistics, The Ship of the Line now has a lower RCS than Galleass. Sure it can attak twice, but I think the nominal RCS could be buffed to 35 (the same as a frigate). The real RCS would then be 28, which is still weaker than what it was before the Logistics nerf.

 

[Funak]

Because of the -20% RCS from Logistics, The Ship of the Line now has a lower RCS than Galleass. Sure it can attak twice, but I think the nominal RCS could be buffed to 35 (the same as a frigate). The real RCS would then be 28, which is still weaker than what it was before the Logistics nerf.

This is true for the Slinger, the Chu-ko-nu and the Hwacha as well. Honestly feels a bit like these units were forgotten when the change to logistics was made.

 

[wobuffet]

This is true for the Slinger, the Chu-ko-nu and the Hwacha as well. Honestly feels a bit like these units were forgotten when the change to logistics was made.

Agreed; logically it must be that either the Logistics-enabled UUs were not balanced (too strong) before, or they are not balanced (too weak) now. Or both, I guess.

 

[kleinlax21]

Played a game as England the other day, SotL's feel super weak to me too. 35 RCS might be too strong for a frigate with immediate logistics, but as is the unit is pretty feckless.

 

[Gazebo]

This is true for the Slinger, the Chu-ko-nu and the Hwacha as well. Honestly feels a bit like these units were forgotten when the change to logistics was made.

The two-hit bonus is so good that I decided to wait and see how it played out before adjusting the CS. Not forgotten, just testing.

G

 

[kleinlax21]

The two-hit bonus is so good that I decided to wait and see how it played out before adjusting the CS. Not forgotten, just testing.

Sounds good. Looking forward to the next beta patch

 

[Funak]

The two-hit bonus is so good that I decided to wait and see how it played out before adjusting the CS. Not forgotten, just testing.

Personally still not sold on the whole new Logistics promotion, 20% CS is a heavy penalty, especially considering you don't always get the chance to do two attacks in a turn.

Anyways, considering people weren't exactly complaining about these units (except maybe the SotL) before from what I've gathered, just giving them a 20% CS penalty without adjusting the rest of the unit seems like it would make the unit underpowered. That's how I see it anyways, sorry if that sounded like an accusation.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Rolled England for the first time. On paper I thought it looks rather weak and when I have had it as an AI it just seemed irratating. But I have to say that turn 1 spy is a huge deal. I found my neighbor very early. Poland. I knew I had a hard time. I put my spy in Warsaw and it did wonders. I stole two techs in ancient era. That's as many free techs as Ethopia gets. Then bunch of times I stoled research, money and production. It really hindered the Poland civ. They are weakest civ in my continent and I give my spy credit for that.

I am only on Classical so I can't say much about the other uniques. Ship of the line will definitely be great for me because I have 30 (!) iron in my cities. The UB seems pretty meh but we will see.

Maria Theresa beat me to Great Lighthouse by one turn which sucks as a England. Well hopefully I win the treasury fleet.

All in all England is good civ. A lot better than it seems on paper. I play on shuffle map and I don't know yet if this is a continents type map or pangea so I don't know how much havoc I can wreck with my Ship of the Lines.

 

[ExpiredReign]

That is why I love playing as England but hate playing against them!
The spying on the first opponent they meet means they are going to advance through the techs very quickly and do damage to production WITHOUT restrictions.
General rule of thumb: if England exists in the game THEY MUST BE DESTROYED!!

 

[JungleBucks]

That is why I love playing as England but hate playing against them!
The spying on the first opponent they meet means they are going to advance through the techs very quickly and do damage to production WITHOUT restrictions.
General rule of thumb: if England exists in the game THEY MUST BE DESTROYED!!

The fact that they damage other civs without restriction right off the bat is such an urker! If they could only steal tech until the Renassaints (or they unlock Patronage since you can get a spy then), they wouldn't be nearly as troublesome, but I understand that it'd probably be difficult to implement.

 

[JungleBucks]

I was talking to my friend about the recent changes in the past, and he has a concern involving the change to the nature of spying. I'll maybe check this in the future, but for now I just have to ask. Can England's first spy steal great works?

Now, this shouldn't really a problem like 80% of the time, as you're not going to find too many, if any great works until the later classical era, but there are certain situations, like a Progress civ building the Parthenon, or a GW creation from an early Mayan Great Person (not the best play but that's besides the point), or basically half of what makes Egypt's UB work, that could be taken advantage of by the fact that you don't have any kind of way to counter England's spying until later in the game.

Should this be a concern? I mean, stolen techs are bad, but at least you don't really LOSE them like Great Works. Might a limit to the available actions of the early spy need to be placed, or is this not a big deal?

 

[Gazebo]

I was talking to my friend about the recent changes in the past, and he has a concern involving the change to the nature of spying. I'll maybe check this in the future, but for now I just have to ask. Can England's first spy steal great works?

Now, this shouldn't really a problem like 80% of the time, as you're not going to find too many, if any great works until the later classical era, but there are certain situations, like a Progress civ building the Parthenon, or a GW creation from an early Mayan Great Person (not the best play but that's besides the point), or basically half of what makes Egypt's UB work, that could be taken advantage of by the fact that you don't have any kind of way to counter England's spying until later in the game.

Should this be a concern? I mean, stolen techs are bad, but at least you don't really LOSE them like Great Works. Might a limit to the available actions of the early spy need to be placed, or is this not a big deal?

Yes they can, but the rate should be very, very slow.

G

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I was talking to my friend about the recent changes in the past, and he has a concern involving the change to the nature of spying. I'll maybe check this in the future, but for now I just have to ask. Can England's first spy steal great works?

Now, this shouldn't really a problem like 80% of the time, as you're not going to find too many, if any great works until the later classical era, but there are certain situations, like a Progress civ building the Parthenon, or a GW creation from an early Mayan Great Person (not the best play but that's besides the point), or basically half of what makes Egypt's UB work, that could be taken advantage of by the fact that you don't have any kind of way to counter England's spying until later in the game.

Should this be a concern? I mean, stolen techs are bad, but at least you don't really LOSE them like Great Works. Might a limit to the available actions of the early spy need to be placed, or is this not a big deal?

Remember that early spies are fairly accessible to everyone. Statecraft offers additional spies as a first-tier policy.

 

[Galbias]

I wouldn't really call that early, someone is probably close to Renaissance and unlocking spies for everyone normally by the time you're far enough to get that policy in Statecraft.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I wouldn't really call that early, someone is probably close to Renaissance and unlocking spies for everyone normally by the time you're far enough to get that policy in Statecraft.

Poland, Japan, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Nederlanse, Morocco, Celtia, anyone with culture-yielding resources, could EASILY unlock 1 statescraft prior to being in the renaissance.

I think any civ at all can do it if they are B-lining cultural buildings / pantheons.

 

[Txurce]

Poland, Japan, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Nederlanse, Morocco, Celtia, anyone with culture-yielding resources, could EASILY unlock 1 statescraft prior to being in the renaissance.

I think any civ at all can do it if they are B-lining cultural buildings / pantheons.

Now that I finally have my culture game working, I do it often.

 

[IcyAngel]

The turn 0 spy is outrageously strong imo.

I've been toying around with England, and I consistently get 4-5 techs per era from Ancient to Medieval from it. No effort at all, too!
It's single handedly better than Ethiopia's and Assyria's UA, but of course Elizabeth also gets the naval units movement speed, reduced maintenance and level two spies. It's insane!

I know people don't consider England to be OP, but her UA is Poland-level of no risk extreme rewards and the rest of her kit is great too, as opposed to Poland's. She might be the best human civ right now.

 

[Enginseer]

England isn't OP because she takes forever for people to notice. What's a spy to a recruit if you don't know the level when you kill the spy? AIs never abuse the full naval movement advantage unless they are trying to get to somewhere really fast while reduced maintenance isn't that big considering if you have a large navy, you must be playing on island map setting in order to largely take advantage of the reduced maintenance. As for the player-side, humans can actually exploit spies better than the AI which makes them extremely strong and Poland tier since Poland UA is also human-exploitable.

 

[Gazebo]

The turn 0 spy is outrageously strong imo.

I've been toying around with England, and I consistently get 4-5 techs per era from Ancient to Medieval from it. No effort at all, too!
It's single handedly better than Ethiopia's and Assyria's UA, but of course Elizabeth also gets the naval units movement speed, reduced maintenance and level two spies. It's insane!

I know people don't consider England to be OP, but her UA is Poland-level of no risk extreme rewards and the rest of her kit is great too, as opposed to Poland's. She might be the best human civ right now.

I probably just need to slow pre-renaissance tech steal rates a bit. The spy is intended to be a harassment, not a gamebreaker.