England

[CrazyG]

The turn 0 spy is outrageously strong imo.

I've been toying around with England, and I consistently get 4-5 techs per era from Ancient to Medieval from it. No effort at all, too!
It's single handedly better than Ethiopia's and Assyria's UA, but of course Elizabeth also gets the naval units movement speed, reduced maintenance and level two spies. It's insane!

I know people don't consider England to be OP, but her UA is Poland-level of no risk extreme rewards and the rest of her kit is great too, as opposed to Poland's. She might be the best human civ right now.

How did you get 15 free technologies before Renaissance (there are 30 tech total in those eras) and are still able to steal technologies?

 

[IcyAngel]

How did you get 15 free technologies before Renaissance (there are 30 tech total in those eras) and are still able to steal technologies?

More like 5 in the ancient era, and 4 in the other two.

But it's relatively easy. Just build science as a very last priority. I am mid classical right now and have only built a council in my capital (out of 5 cities), yet I'm second in tech! If you beeline, you can consistently keep stealing techs.

There's a downside because you cannot always rush ahead for wonders, but it's worth the price imo. You can build an army instead and conquer these wonders anyway.

England isn't OP because she takes forever for people to notice. What's a spy to a recruit if you don't know the level when you kill the spy? AIs never abuse the full naval movement advantage unless they are trying to get to somewhere really fast while reduced maintenance isn't that big considering if you have a large navy, you must be playing on island map setting in order to largely take advantage of the reduced maintenance. As for the player-side, humans can actually exploit spies better than the AI which makes them extremely strong and Poland tier since Poland UA is also human-exploitable.

Yeah, England's strengths cannot easily be exploited by the AI, which makes her merely good in their hands. I think Gazebo's solution is the correct one. It takes me about 15-20 turns on Epic to steal a tech, I think it could be increased to 30ish.

 

[CrazyG]

More like 5 in the ancient era, and 4 in the other two.

But it's relatively easy. Just build science as a very last priority. I am mid classical right now and have only built a council in my capital (out of 5 cities), yet I'm second in tech! If you beeline, you can consistently keep stealing techs.

There's a downside because you cannot always rush ahead for wonders, but it's worth the price imo. You can build an army instead and conquer these wonders anyway.

I see, you go really far in the tech tree either high or low so you can keep stealing. I've randomed England before and been rather unimpressed, skipping science infrastructure is an interesting idea.

 

[Funak]

There is a really big difference between stealing techs (like England) and getting free techs (like Ethiopia), you have far less control over the stolen ones and they are usually of lower quality compared to free ones. And you often end up with terrible relations with the ones you steal from.

That being said, the English tech-stealing power is strong, maybe even really strong, but her complete lack of other early-game uniques kinda makes up for that, I don't see a good reason to nerf it.

 

[Owlbebach]

I'd agree with Funak, at least on immortal / deity relationship penalty for stealing techs is very strong, you loose ability to trade and risk of war is also really high

 

[Txurce]

I'd agree with Funak, at least on immortal / deity relationship penalty for stealing techs is very strong, you loose ability to trade and risk of war is also really high

I also agree. And on a related note, this is a good example of a single opinion possibly changing a long-accepted norm. For those keeping score, right now it's 3:1 against.

 

[Gokudo01]

There is a really big difference between stealing techs (like England) and getting free techs (like Ethiopia), you have far less control over the stolen ones and they are usually of lower quality compared to free ones. And you often end up with terrible relations with the ones you steal from.

That being said, the English tech-stealing power is strong, maybe even really strong, but her complete lack of other early-game uniques kinda makes up for that, I don't see a good reason to nerf it.

funak is right ;england has got the latest ub and one of the latest uu. I think england doesn t deserve any nerf

 

[peterw1987]

I once met AI england in second turn. And you know what happen next.

fudge that spy, stealing my gold,production,science early. I already warned that c*** elizabeth not to spy on me anymore, she said okay, but she break the promise. And the spy keep plaguing me that i have to denounce her. But it didnt make her stop her spy.

fudge this horsehocky, i am restarting for new game.

 

[Gazebo]

Fun fact: I had some code for spies to be slowed for pre renaissance theft (designed from when I made the UA) but the code wasn't working properly. Works now. I'll see if it hurts her potency. It'd increase costs by about 25% as is.

 

[Funak]

Fun fact: I had some code for spies to be slowed for pre renaissance theft (designed from when I made the UA) but the code wasn't working properly. Works now. I'll see if it hurts her potency. It'd increase costs by about 25% as is.

We'll see how it turns out. I mean if it horribly cripples her, giving her a minor buff on some other front wouldn't be impossible.


@peterw1987 Yeah, that's life. All you can really do about it is hoping she meets someone else first, not actually being able to spot your city (because of hills/forests/whatnot) and just never give her an embassy .
If it does happen to you, all you can really do is make sure she gets as little as possible out of it, spend your gold, don't build wonders and so on.

 

[infidel88]

Decreasing is fine if we give number of spies based on city states. oR if early rigging CS would produce additional Influence. Right now my only strategy as England is go authority and build up big army, so you can defend if someone you're stealing from is annoyed to the point of war. And in that - England is magnificent.

 

[ElliotS]

I once met AI england in second turn. And you know what happen next.

**** that spy, stealing my gold,production,science early. I already warned that c*** elizabeth not to spy on me anymore, she said okay, but she break the promise. And the spy keep plaguing me that i have to denounce her. But it didnt make her stop her spy.

**** this ****, i am restarting for new game.

Bro, just kill her. England has no early bonuses, so murder her face. A little genocide helps wake me up anyways.

Also I think nerfing England (I know you're 'fixing a bug' but it's still worse than it was before for end users.) is a bad idea. She's got NOTHING early aside from the spy, and I don't think she was even close to game breaking.

Maybe her spies should start at level 3 in this case. That would mean they're worse than before (the bug fix) after their first steal/other thing but it mitigates the nerf on the first action.

Alternatively is it possible for English spies to level to 4, or get a flat buff instead of starting at level 2?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that England is a very middling civ and is only annoying rather than even remotely OP.

Edit: Also note that this is 4 against a nerf and 1 for, yet she's still getting nerfed effectively.

 

[Txurce]

Bro, just kill her. England has no early bonuses, so murder her face. A little genocide helps wake me up anyways.

Also I think nerfing England (I know you're 'fixing a bug' but it's still worse than it was before for end users.) is a bad idea. She's got NOTHING early aside from the spy, and I don't think she was even close to game breaking.

Maybe her spies should start at level 3 in this case. That would mean they're worse than before (the bug fix) after their first steal/other thing but it mitigates the nerf on the first action.

Alternatively is it possible for English spies to level to 4, or get a flat buff instead of starting at level 2?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that England is a very middling civ and is only annoying rather than even remotely OP.

Edit: Also note that this is 4 against a nerf and 1 for, yet she's still getting nerfed effectively.

Agreed.

 

[peterw1987]

That early war in deity will cripple my early infrastructure, which is best avoided.
And at that time, my civ is not good at early stage.

 

[Gokudo01]

Is it cool, you have to adapt to your foes? Doesn t it add replayabilty ? I really think england doesnt need any nerf : with uu end renaissance and industrial unique building, she relies on spying to not reach her uu or ub 5 to 8 tech behind the first. As an AI, she is usually dead before renaissance, stomped by augustes askia or attila

 

[tu_79]

That early war in deity will cripple my early infrastructure, which is best avoided.
And at that time, my civ is not good at early stage.

Infrastructure? Who needs it? What you need is a couple of catapults, a few horsemen and maybe one spearsman. Kill the enemies with your horses, protect the catapults with the spearsman, siege London and in 10 turns you should have one extra good city and some trained units. Unless you are playing Deity or something like that.
EDIT.
If no horses around, try swordsmen with drill promotions. If you start next to a warmonger or England, you need to change your strategy, so consider taking one or two Authority policies (not really needed, but helps).
EDIT2.
BTW, I don't know if this works, but I think declaring war is enough to force spies to flee.

 

[ElliotS]

Infrastructure? Who needs it? What you need is a couple of catapults, a few horsemen and maybe one spearsman. Kill the enemies with your horses, protect the catapults with the spearsman, siege London and in 10 turns you should have one extra good city and some trained units. Unless you are playing Deity or something like that.
EDIT.
If no horses around, try swordsmen with drill promotions. If you start next to a warmonger or England, you need to change your strategy, so consider taking one or two Authority policies (not really needed, but helps).
EDIT2.
BTW, I don't know if this works, but I think declaring war is enough to force spies to flee.

DoW does not force spies to flee. It forces diplomats out.

That said even on Deity early warfare is only crippling if you lose. If you win you get London and York at least, which is worth the production of units you'll need for self defense anyways.

To win efficiently versus the Deity AI now the best method IMO is to set up a great defensive position and kill TONS of units before actually invading. You'll still need to deal with swarms as you invade, but the initial wall of units is usually too thick to invade into so don't try.

 

[peterw1987]

DoW does not force spies to flee. It forces diplomats out.

That said even on Deity early warfare is only crippling if you lose. If you win you get London and York at least, which is worth the production of units you'll need for self defense anyways.

To win efficiently versus the Deity AI now the best method IMO is to set up a great defensive position and kill TONS of units before actually invading. You'll still need to deal with swarms as you invade, but the initial wall of units is usually too thick to invade into so don't try.

It might be derail from the topic title. But how occupying another city affect culture and science treshold? Especially that early. Wont it increase the culture and science cost?

 

[tu_79]

Infrastructure? Who needs it? What you need is a couple of catapults, a few horsemen and maybe one spearsman. Kill the enemies with your horses, protect the catapults with the spearsman, siege London and in 10 turns you should have one extra good city and some trained units. Unless you are playing Deity or something like that.
EDIT.
If no horses around, try swordsmen with drill promotions. If you start next to a warmonger or England, you need to change your strategy, so consider taking one or two Authority policies (not really needed, but helps).

It might be derail from the topic title. But how occupying another city affect culture and science treshold? Especially that early. Wont it increase the culture and science cost?

A single city or two, specially if they have some pop/infrastructure, won't matter. Each controlled city raises techs and policies cost. Just puppeted raises only techs, which you can recover.

 

[ElliotS]

It might be derail from the topic title. But how occupying another city affect culture and science treshold? Especially that early. Wont it increase the culture and science cost?

Yeah, but taking cities is still awesome.