[BNW] Enjoyable Deity Games

[vadalaz]

#127 America - T220 SV

Spoiler :

Interesting map. There's not enough space available for a wide empire here, so you have to fight for it, but the surrounding lands are rich enough to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

Turn 1 settle on desert gems next to the stone tile. Opened with Scout - Monument - Shrine - Scout - Warrior and went Liberty. Stole a worker pretty early from the Inca, and declared war on Polynesia as well. I couldn't resist - Kamehameha sent me a trade route and I had just finished building my second scout, so I pillaged it for the easy 100 gold. This gold plus a peace deal with the Incans (240g <> Gems) allowed me to buy an early settler to secure Mt Kili.

I ended up stealing two workers from Pachacuti and Kamehameha each. I tried to build the Pyramids as well, but Harald got it on turn 39, beating me by two turns. So I declared war on Budapest and camped its Horse tile for more free workers.

I'm exploring the lands, and a plan starts to form. I want 5 self-founded cities plus Tonga, Honolulu and Cusco. I'll settle one of my expos on the plains two tiles NW of the Whales, so I'm planning to use my first GG to steal land from M'Banza.

Spoiler T50 :

Polynesia didn't have much of an army, so I attacked them first and took the two cities I wanted. Unfortunately Kamehameha went Piety and managed to spread his stupid religion to several nearby cities, forcing me to buy a few Inquisitors and later to spread my religion with the 500 faith Prophet instead of planting a holy site. My religion was Tears of the Gods - Tithe - Temple happiness - 15% production - IP, which is really good and something I want in all my cities.

The first pantheon to go was Desert Folklore, so I figured that one of the AIs had a desert start and going for Petra wasn't really an option here. It was still available when I finished Liberty though, so I chose to get a Great Engineer and one-turned Petra in New York. I knew this would eventually be a monster city, certainly better than the capital, so I built NC there as well.

Spoiler T100. I'll miss Oracle by one turn, to Harald again :

I didn't have enough happiness to take Cusco yet (although I really wanted to, because the city had Temple of Artemis), so I waited. I farmed enough XP to get some Range+Logistics CBs and made peace. I captured Cusco in Industrial era after building Forbidden Palace and getting every luxury on the map. So now I had ToA and endless We Love The King Days for fast growth (which was later limited by ideological pressure from the Aztecs).

Spoiler T158; T150 wasn't pretty enough for a screenshot! :

I managed diplomacy quite well. England, Polynesia and the Inca hated me (I don't think I've ever had a game in which Elizabeth liked me), but I had DoFs with France, Denmark and Brazil, and the Aztecs were friendly too. So with 8 good cities and no AI threat, it was now just a matter of executing the standard Freedom SV endgame.

The only problem was the shortage of cultural CSs on the map. I knew I wouldn't ever get enough culture for Mercanitilism, and I didn't go for Big Ben either, so I'd have to pay the full 18000 gold for SS parts. Luckily that's still manageable with 8 cities, 3 DoFs and a bunch of trading posts. Another issue was that Arts Funding got passed on the second Congress, which probably cost me a couple of turns. Overall I had a lot of fun, warlike SVs are probably my favourite type of Civ 5 games to play, and this was a good map for that.

Spoiler T220 :

 

[Nizef]

#127 America - T220 SV

Spoiler :

Interesting map. There's not enough space available for a wide empire here, so you have to fight for it, but the surrounding lands are rich enough to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

Turn 1 settle on desert gems next to the stone tile. Opened with Scout - Monument - Shrine - Scout - Warrior and went Liberty. Stole a worker pretty early from the Inca, and declared war on Polynesia as well. I couldn't resist - Kamehameha sent me a trade route and I had just finished building my second scout, so I pillaged it for the easy 100 gold. This gold plus a peace deal with the Incans (240g <> Gems) allowed me to buy an early settler to secure Mt Kili.

I ended up stealing two workers from Pachacuti and Kamehameha each. I tried to build the Pyramids as well, but Harald got it on turn 39, beating me by two turns. So I declared war on Budapest and camped its Horse tile for more free workers.

I'm exploring the lands, and a plan starts to form. I want 5 self-founded cities plus Tonga, Honolulu and Cusco. I'll settle one of my expos on the plains two tiles NE of the Whales, so I'm planning to use my first GG to steal land from M'Banza.

Spoiler T50 :

View attachment 582724

Polynesia didn't have much of an army, so I attacked them first and took the two cities I wanted. Unfortunately Kamehameha went Piety and managed to spread his stupid religion to several nearby cities, forcing me to buy a few Inquisitors and later to spread my religion with the 500 faith Prophet instead of planting a holy site. My religion was Tears of the Gods - Tithe - Temple happiness - 15% production - IP, which is really good and something I want in all my cities.

The first pantheon to go was Desert Folklore, so I figured that one of the AIs had a desert start and going for Petra wasn't really an option here. It was still available when I finished Liberty though, so I chose to get a Great Engineer and one-turned Petra in New York. I knew this would eventually be a monster city, certainly better than the capital, so I built NC there as well.

Spoiler T100. I'll miss Oracle by one turn, to Harald again :

View attachment 582725

I didn't have enough happiness to take Cusco yet (although I really wanted to, because the city had Temple of Artemis), so I waited. I farmed enough XP to get some Range+Logistics CBs and made peace. I captured Cusco in Industrial era after building Forbidden Palace and getting every luxury on the map. So now I had ToA and endless We Love The King Days for fast growth (which was later limited by ideological pressure from the Aztecs).

Spoiler T158; T150 wasn't pretty enough for a screenshot! :

View attachment 582726

I managed diplomacy quite well. England, Polynesia and the Inca hated me (I don't think I've ever had a game in which Elizabeth liked me), but I had DoFs with France, Denmark and Brazil, and the Aztecs were friendly too. So with 8 good cities and no AI threat, it was now just a matter of executing the standard Freedom SV endgame.

The only problem was the shortage of cultural CSs on the map. I knew I wouldn't ever get enough culture for Mercanitilism, and I didn't go for Big Ben either, so I'd have to pay the full 18000 gold for SS parts. Luckily that's still manageable with 8 cities, 3 DoFs and a bunch of trading posts. Another issue was that Arts Funding got passed on the second Congress, which probably cost me a couple of turns. Overall I had a lot of fun, warlike SVs are probably my favourite type of Civ 5 games to play, and this was a good map for that.

Spoiler T220 :

View attachment 582727

Glad you liked it! In hindsight I should definitely have gone for Samoa and Honolulu early to boost my game.

I must say that I like having Elizabeth in my games. She will, in a strange way, make the game a little bit harder: you can´t spy on her, she will be pi**ed off whatever you do (meaning that trade routes and open borders are rare) and she will "always" pick an other ideology than you. In addition she has actually useful UUs.

 

[Shark Diver]

#127 America - T220 SV

Spoiler :

Interesting map. There's not enough space available for a wide empire here, so you have to fight for it, but the surrounding lands are rich enough to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

Turn 1 settle on desert gems next to the stone tile. Opened with Scout - Monument - Shrine - Scout - Warrior and went Liberty. Stole a worker pretty early from the Inca, and declared war on Polynesia as well. I couldn't resist - Kamehameha sent me a trade route and I had just finished building my second scout, so I pillaged it for the easy 100 gold. This gold plus a peace deal with the Incans (240g <> Gems) allowed me to buy an early settler to secure Mt Kili.

I ended up stealing two workers from Pachacuti and Kamehameha each. I tried to build the Pyramids as well, but Harald got it on turn 39, beating me by two turns. So I declared war on Budapest and camped its Horse tile for more free workers.

I'm exploring the lands, and a plan starts to form. I want 5 self-founded cities plus Tonga, Honolulu and Cusco. I'll settle one of my expos on the plains two tiles NW of the Whales, so I'm planning to use my first GG to steal land from M'Banza.

Spoiler T50 :

View attachment 582724

Polynesia didn't have much of an army, so I attacked them first and took the two cities I wanted. Unfortunately Kamehameha went Piety and managed to spread his stupid religion to several nearby cities, forcing me to buy a few Inquisitors and later to spread my religion with the 500 faith Prophet instead of planting a holy site. My religion was Tears of the Gods - Tithe - Temple happiness - 15% production - IP, which is really good and something I want in all my cities.

The first pantheon to go was Desert Folklore, so I figured that one of the AIs had a desert start and going for Petra wasn't really an option here. It was still available when I finished Liberty though, so I chose to get a Great Engineer and one-turned Petra in New York. I knew this would eventually be a monster city, certainly better than the capital, so I built NC there as well.

Spoiler T100. I'll miss Oracle by one turn, to Harald again :

View attachment 582725

I didn't have enough happiness to take Cusco yet (although I really wanted to, because the city had Temple of Artemis), so I waited. I farmed enough XP to get some Range+Logistics CBs and made peace. I captured Cusco in Industrial era after building Forbidden Palace and getting every luxury on the map. So now I had ToA and endless We Love The King Days for fast growth (which was later limited by ideological pressure from the Aztecs).

Spoiler T158; T150 wasn't pretty enough for a screenshot! :

View attachment 582726

I managed diplomacy quite well. England, Polynesia and the Inca hated me (I don't think I've ever had a game in which Elizabeth liked me), but I had DoFs with France, Denmark and Brazil, and the Aztecs were friendly too. So with 8 good cities and no AI threat, it was now just a matter of executing the standard Freedom SV endgame.

The only problem was the shortage of cultural CSs on the map. I knew I wouldn't ever get enough culture for Mercanitilism, and I didn't go for Big Ben either, so I'd have to pay the full 18000 gold for SS parts. Luckily that's still manageable with 8 cities, 3 DoFs and a bunch of trading posts. Another issue was that Arts Funding got passed on the second Congress, which probably cost me a couple of turns. Overall I had a lot of fun, warlike SVs are probably my favourite type of Civ 5 games to play, and this was a good map for that.

Spoiler T220 :

View attachment 582727

That 1814 Science/turn is pretty impressive.

564 GPT is also pretty ridiculous.

 

[Shark Diver]

EDGE#126 - T239 Culture Victory

Spoiler Great Plan.....Lousy Execution :

As you can tell from my finishing time, things didn't go exactly as I had hoped for. A lot of that was due to critical errors on my part at key decision points, but I wanted to try to stick to my original plan as much as possible. This game can be won before t200 using the strategy Tiberiu layed out. I'll walk through the errors and suggestions at the end.

My cities were painfully slow. This slowed everything down, and I didn't have time to build many infrastructure buildings or any units.

Leading up to the International Games, Gandhi was putting up a hell of a Tourism battle and I was 3rd in production, so I was a bit nervous. I had little control over my Golden Ages, as I had to use all Artists for theming.

Having won the IG, it was now just about getting through Aesthetics as quickly as possible.

I did take Aristocracy for Futurism, but that didn't really impress me. Maybe it would have been effective in a game where there were no strong Culture Civs, gut Gandhi and later Pedro made that sort of moot. There really weren't any other policies in Aristocracy that would help me this game, as I was in no position to go to war.

Here are my Musicians getting ready to finish the game off. I timed this almost perfectly, as I waited to get Natural Heritage Sites passed and received an extra 30 Tourism for working 3 Natural Wonders. I had to DoW Brazil to get into his borders, so the timing needed to be perfect. I had just settled a useless snow tile so I could gift it to Gandhi and finally get a trade route and Musicians to him. I should have done that 50 turns sooner, but never seemed to find the time.

Raw tourism maxed out at 414, and I never did get to Airports (really slow science game). Getting Sacred Sites so early powered the whole game, but it isn't enough to win by itself.

The Cap was crappy all game, and I'll once again iterate that settling on Flatland sucks. My Sinai expo ended up bigger than the Cap. I ended up buying 4 Hydro plants and even then, my cities all sucked. Some never built basic buildings like Markets and Stables. I couldn't work Scientist slots until far too late, so I only got natural Scientists from the Cap.


Overall really fun game, and I may play it again some day to try to correct my mistakes.

MISTAKES

1. Not taking Liberty from the get-go. This would have gotten my last 3 expos out much earlier and they wouldn't have been so feeble. I took Tradition for the GE's, so that tradeoff would have to be accounted for. Getting early Pyramids and the Liberty finisher should get 2 GE's. In my game, Pyramids went on t38, which my Cap could have beaten barely with a couple of chops. The turbo-workers would have really helped get the expos up to speed faster.
2. Taking Autocracy. Monte actually beat me to Autocracy by 3 turns, but I still got Futurism out early. Going Freedom would have been much better, even if I lacked the Culture to blast through it quickly. Just the growth bonus alone would have resulted in a couple more Scientists. Also, the tech path to Flight for Prora slows down getting to Hotels, and I also got beat to Cristo (something that rarely happens). Having more control over Golden Ages with Freedom would have helped get the important buildings up much faster. Freedom is definitely the way to go here, but I wanted Futurism.....a mistake I'll not make again.
3. Diplo - Although I was able to stay out of war and had 4 longstanding DoF's, I didn't do a good enough job of getting the AI to take out Gandhi. Monte was busy adding the Incans to has massive Empire, and Pedro and Gandhi were lifelong friends. If I replayed this, I'd prioritize getting those two fighting early and often. Gandhi alone in its own corner was pretty daunting.
4. Prioritize Science - I didn't make Libraries and Unis the top priority in the 3 late expos. I also could have worked Scientist slots much earlier. This slowed me enough that I didn't get to Radio in time for a 2nd Conference IG Proposal. I had so much early science from settling the 2 science Wonders, that I got greedy and discounted the penalty for 7 cities.
5. Taking Cathedrals - there was no way I was going to get all 22 Archeologists out. In fact, I got just enough to fill and theme all 7 Museums. The Cathedrals remained empty, even though they do give the early Archeologists a place to put their Great Works before Museums are up. Mosques would have been much better this game, and the extra Faith and Culture would have been useful.
6. Not forward settling Attila. Getting a coastal with access to the rest of the world would have been very useful, even if it would have risked p*ssing him off. If I played this game again, early war on Attila might make sense. Taking his cities wouldn't really be the goal, but to DoW him early and just keep him from building up troops would make sense.

 

[Tiberiu]

Congratulations @Shark Diver for your efforts, victory and storytelling. I want to share my final thoughts about this map and our playthroughs.

Spoiler :

After this map I can say for me Sacred Sites isn't worth the trouble on Deity and playing in a normal way is better. I had fun playing with it, though. My attempt at finishing quickly around t210 was quite close, as I only influenced France 97% after bulbing 2 musicians, and then the influence started to decrease and I had to wait for International Games to end the game. I did not account for the fact that his culture will grow after buying pagodas and mosques as well. At least I used the extra turns to practice religion convertion, and I managed to get all 41 cities with 4 buildings. 8 tourism / city became 16 / city with international games and then it was easy to finish.

I like how civilizations in our games are doing very different, in your game the first 3 civilizations in scores are not even alive anymore in mine. I killed Pedro for his Machu Picchu, Attila took India out and Napoleon took Montezuma and Sejong out.
Here is my endgame screenshot with T288 CV. I have never made more gold with Tithe alone giving me 250 gpt and 89/91 cities in the game having my religion.

 

[Shark Diver]

Congratulations @Shark Diver for your efforts, victory and storytelling. I want to share my final thoughts about this map and our playthroughs.

Spoiler :

After this map I can say for me Sacred Sites isn't worth the trouble on Deity and playing in a normal way is better. I had fun playing with it, though. My attempt at finishing quickly around t210 was quite close, as I only influenced France 97% after bulbing 2 musicians, and then the influence started to decrease and I had to wait for International Games to end the game. I did not account for the fact that his culture will grow after buying pagodas and mosques as well. At least I used the extra turns to practice religion convertion, and I managed to get all 41 cities with 4 buildings. 8 tourism / city became 16 / city with international games and then it was easy to finish.

I like how civilizations in our games are doing very different, in your game the first 3 civilizations in scores are not even alive anymore in mine. I killed Pedro for his Machu Picchu, Attila took India out and Napoleon took Montezuma and Sejong out.
Here is my endgame screenshot with T288 CV. I have never made more gold with Tithe alone giving me 250 gpt and 89/91 cities in the game having my religion.

View attachment 582814

Spoiler Vastly Different Games Indeed :

Am I reading that right? 642 Faith/turn???? HOLY Snikes!!! That has to be a record. I don't think I've ever gotten much more than 200 FPT.

The recent discussion about giving faith buildings to the AI seems like it came into play for you. While your spread is quite admirable, do you think you could have won sooner if you'd kept the Religion to yourself?

I use Sacred Sites often in more "normal" CV games, so I'm a bit of a fan. For this particular game, trying to dominate with Faith Buildings, I think we just haven't figured out the optimal strategy.

I'm going to give it another go after the America game, and I'm going to try to do an 8-City Liberty game with a bit more aggression. That's going to include stealing Prophets if they can give me more Faith Buildings and/or Jesuit Education. The big question is whether complete Liberty before getting to Reformation (and risking someone else taking SS)?

 

[Tiberiu]

do you think you could have won sooner if you'd kept the Religion to yourself?

To be honest, at that point no. But I think I could have won earlier by simply training crossbowmen and capturing everything. I could build 1/turn from like turn 120. So until turn 200 I could have had 80 crossbowmen. With Pyramids and pillage-repair, taking Honor and Military tradition and citadel bombs, I imagine it would have ended quicker, before AI had Flight. As soon as I stopped warmongering thinking it will be enough to win peacefully, my momentum started to decrease. I should have kept at war with everybody. Plus, I like capturing works of art.

The big question is whether complete Liberty before getting to Reformation (and risking someone else taking SS)?

I wonder if this map is good enough so that taking just Piety+Aethetics could work. Maybe only take Tradition opener for Hanging Gardens (and the opener is worth it anyway otherwise borders are too slow). This would assure you get your perfect religion and the faith could be used quickly for writers, artists, etc, and the multipliers would be 40% instead of 25% much quicker. It was just sad to have thousands of faith but not be able to buy any GWAMs all game.

 

[Shark Diver]

Maybe only take Tradition opener for Hanging Gardens (and the opener is worth it anyway otherwise borders are too slow).

This is exactly what I did, and it didn't work well for infrastructure. My thought is that maybe this map is so good that you can let the Religion take care of itself. If someone beats you to Sacred Sites, just rage quit.

As soon as I stopped warmongering thinking it will be enough to win peacefully, my momentum started to decrease.

Funny how often that happens. Going totally peaceful or total warmonger both work. It's the in between games that get messy.

 

[Nizef]

642 fpt?? Never seen anything like that. My own humble record is, like Shark, in the 200-range.

Other impressive statistics are found in vadalaz´s game with America, as Shark already pointed out. I must say, you guys are just fantastic players!

 

[Shark Diver]

642 fpt?? Never seen anything like that. My own humble record is, like Shark, in the 200-range.

Other impressive statistics are found in vadalaz´s game with America, as Shark already pointed out. I must say, you guys are just fantastic players!

Thanks for the kind words.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to engage in conversation with Vadalaz as much as possible. He's got some tricks up his sleeves that we all can learn from. He's a better player than I and his games are a pleasure to read about.

I'm getting ready to post a t71 update on the America game. I'm off to a tremendous start, but don't think I'll be able to beat that t220 SV. I think my record for SV is right around t225, and I'm only going to have 2 garden cities, so I'm not sure I'll get enough Scientists to post a really great score.

 

[Shark Diver]

EDGE#127 - T71 Update

Spoiler Petra Fever! :

I took a peek at screenshots before playing, and this advance knowledge drove me to move my Settler to the Gems. Yes, as you can tell from the title, I'm going for Petra.

BO was Scout, Scout, Shrine, 2 turns into a Granary to get to Pop 5, then Settler/Settler/Settler, Granary, Library, Water Mill, Petra.

I had good luck with ruins to get to Pop 4 so quickly, and now have 2 Kilamanjaro Scarchers thanks to Kammy not exploring at all. I was able to quickly buy out to Mt. Kilamanjaro, so not getting a Culture ruin was quickly overcome.

I got a worker from Incas, and one from Kammy. Kammy also sent an unescorted Settler my way, so I took that before giving peace. I was able to grab 2 more workers from Lhasa before giving them peace. I returned a Barb Worker to M'Banza who gave me another Warrior, which was needed to keep Kammy from settling in the Southern Tundra empty space. He'll get there eventually, but I'll have used America's UA to buy out all the good tiles by then. Speaking of which, I've already bought over a dozen tiles. 5 workers will be all I need, especially since I got so many workers early and was able to improve a lot of the Cap's tiles early.

Here's the Cap at t25, just pumping our Settlers. This will be a 4 city Tradition game and all 4 should be decent or better. 1st expo was settled in Inca's face, and I'll be buying a bunch of tiles from his Cap. He's going to get an early trade route to soothe his feelings. Kammy gave me a quick DoF, and I'm hoping the Incas to the same.


I got all my cities down before founding a religion, and 3 of the 4 are on gems. Had to buy the horses out from under M'banza. Kammy tried pretty hard to sneak another Settler in on me, but I had enough Mountaineering units to block him off.

The Desert Folklore AI hiding somewhere founded, enhanced, and reformed very early, but took Temple and Garden happiness and Jesuit Education. Another AI from across the pond grabbed Monasteries and Mosques, so Sacred Sites may be in competition. I don't necessarily need GtG, so if I don't get SS, I'll divert to Aesthetics and Rationalism before finishing Piety late.

I founded the Holy Order of Shark Diving on t55, and took Tithe and Pagodas. I'm hoping to get Cathedrals as well, and the only 2 Pantheons out there right now are Kammy's Plantation Culture and somebody else's +30% ranged defense, so I've got a pretty good shot.

I grabbed Sailing and will have a Trireme out shortly. Happiness isn't an issue at all, but I've got bad King's Day requests. My Cap wants Sugar, and I've yet to see evidence that this substance exists on this map.

Petra went on t71, and my Cap is now glorious (I call cities with 3 luxes Tripoli, but this game I have 2 such cities). I'll build Oracle in 8-9 turns and will then grab a t85-ish NC.


I'm pleased with the other expos, and the 2 coastals will be feeding each other as soon as I can arrange it. Granaries will go up now that I've got my Calendar resources online.


I'm about to send my Petra trade route to Budapest for a request. They also have a Faith quest, which I'll win in 3 turns, so I'm grabbing Horseback Riding ASAP so I can get his lovely AFE's (African Forrest Elephants). With a couple of those, Mt. Kilo trained Scarchers, and decent diplo going, the only thing I have to worry about is a sneak attack from Cusco. He already wants to war France, so I'm going to entice that arrangement shortly. Stables will also help 2 of my cities.

This is a very solid start if I get the Wonders and religion I'm aiming for. It'll be a good game even if I don't, but this has the makings of one of the better games I've played on this forum.

Sadly, work and a social life might delay my next update.

 

[Nizef]

EDGE#127 - T71 Update

Spoiler Petra Fever! :

I took a peek at screenshots before playing, and this advance knowledge drove me to move my Settler to the Gems. Yes, as you can tell from the title, I'm going for Petra.

BO was Scout, Scout, Shrine, 2 turns into a Granary to get to Pop 5, then Settler/Settler/Settler, Granary, Library, Water Mill, Petra.

I had good luck with ruins to get to Pop 4 so quickly, and now have 2 Kilamanjaro Scarchers thanks to Kammy not exploring at all. I was able to quickly buy out to Mt. Kilamanjaro, so not getting a Culture ruin was quickly overcome.

I got a worker from Incas, and one from Kammy. Kammy also sent an unescorted Settler my way, so I took that before giving peace. I was able to grab 2 more workers from Lhasa before giving them peace. I returned a Barb Worker to M'Banza who gave me another Warrior, which was needed to keep Kammy from settling in the Southern Tundra empty space. He'll get there eventually, but I'll have used America's UA to buy out all the good tiles by then. Speaking of which, I've already bought over a dozen tiles. 5 workers will be all I need, especially since I got so many workers early and was able to improve a lot of the Cap's tiles early.

Here's the Cap at t25, just pumping our Settlers. This will be a 4 city Tradition game and all 4 should be decent or better. 1st expo Inca's face, and I'll be buying a bunch of tiles from his Cap. He's going to get an early trade route to soothe his feelings. Kammy gave me a quick DoF, and I'm hoping the Incas to the same.
View attachment 582835

I got all my cities down before founding a religion, and 3 of the 4 are on gems. Had to buy the horses out from under M'banza. Kammy tried pretty hard to sneak another Settler in on me, but I had enough Mountaineering units to block him off.

The Desert Folklore founded, enhanced, and reformed very early, but took Temple and Garden happiness and Jesuit Education. Another AI from across the pond grabbed Monasteries and Mosques, so Sacred Sites may be in competition. I don't necessarily need GtG, so if I don't get SS, I'll divert to Aesthetics and Rationalism before finishing Piety late.

I founded the Holy Order of Shark Diving on t55, and took Tithe and Pagodas. I'm hoping to get Cathedrals as well, and the only 2 Pantheons out there right now are Kammy's Plantation Culture and somebody else's +30% ranged defense, so I've got a pretty good shot.

I grabbed Sailing and will have a Trireme out shortly. Happiness isn't an issue at all, but I've got bad King's Day requests. My Cap wants Sugar, and I've yet to see evidence that this substance exists on this map.

Petra went on t71, and my Cap is now glorious (I call cities with 3 luxes Tripoli, but this game I have 2 such cities). I'll build Oracle in 8-9 turns and will then grab a t85-ish NC.
View attachment 582835

I'm pleased with the other expos, and the 2 coastals will be feeding each other as soon as I can arrange it. Granaries will go up now that I've got my Calendar resources online.
View attachment 582836

I'm about to send my Petra trade route to Budapest for a request. They also have a Faith quest, which I'll win in 3 turns, so I'm grabbing Horseback Riding ASAP so I can get his lovely AFE's (African Forrest Elephants). With a couple of those, Mt. Kilo trained Scarchers, and decent diplo going, the only thing I have to worry about is a sneak attack from Cusco. He already wants to war France, so I'm going to entice that arrangement shortly. Stables will also help 2 of my cities.

This is a very solid start if I get the Wonders and religion I'm aiming for. It'll be a good game even if I don't, but this has the makings of one of the better games I've played on this forum.

Sadly, work and a social life might delay my next update.

Very nice report and nice start as well! Yeah, vadalaz is second to none here. He is also sharing his ideas, but I must say that I am only rarely on such a level that I could effectively take advantage of them. In general his early game is much more efficient than mine. In #127 he quickly defeated Polynesia for some decent "extra" cities, which obviously gave him a nice boost.

One of the more ridiculous games he has played in this thread is #50 with Austria. He won a DomV in about 150 turns. That is already impressive but the thing is that that particular game is on Epic speed...

EDIT: When you find Ur, you will find Sugar.

 

[Shark Diver]

Very nice report and nice start as well! Yeah, vadalaz is second to none here. He is also sharing his ideas, but I must say that I am only rarely on such a level that I could effectively take advantage of them. In general his early game is much more efficient than mine. In #127 he quickly defeated Polynesia for some decent "extra" cities, which obviously gave him a nice boost.

One of the more ridiculous games he has played in this thread is #50 with Austria. He won a DomV in about 150 turns. That is already impressive but the thing is that that particular game is on Epic speed...

EDIT: When you find Ur, you will find Sugar.

From comparing the few games where Valadaz and I had very similar empires, the difference in play style is subtle, but readily apparent. He will consistently have slightly bigger cities than I do, and I focus on growth quite a bit. This is a great example of the hierarchy of priorities we all place in our games. I believe the biggest difference is he uses more internal trade routes, while I usually have 2-3 external all game long going after CS quests. Population is an incredibly important driver of all things in this game, and my own play style really improved when I made it a higher priority.

There's other subtle differences we all have in our play style, and a lot of it comes down to prioritization. Because CV is where I've focused a lot of my time, I tend to always have good Culture games. Had I been more focused on SV, I'd probably have even more tricks to stimulate pop growth. Yes, science and culture compliment each other, but little differences like saving money to buy science buildings is something you don't do in a Culture focused game.

I'll give another good example of how differing play styles really changes results. I hate losing units. When I'm warring, I am very patient and cautious. Others are much more into ramming units down the AI's throat. The 2nd way gets you faster victories in war, but there is a tradeoff of needing to build more units and therefore less infrastructure. Both work.

EDIT: When you find Ur, you will find Sugar.

Should be pretty soon as I have a Trireme out relatively early. Will make sure to save plenty of gold to maybe get a quick ally. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Nizef]

From comparing the few games where Valadaz and I had very similar empires, the difference in play style is subtle, but readily apparent. He will consistently have slightly bigger cities than I do, and I focus on growth quite a bit. This is a great example of the hierarchy of priorities we all place in our games. I believe the biggest difference is he uses more internal trade routes, while I usually have 2-3 external all game long going after CS quests. Population is an incredibly important driver of all things in this game, and my own play style really improved when I made it a higher priority.

There's other subtle differences we all have in our play style, and a lot of it comes down to prioritization. Because CV is where I've focused a lot of my time, I tend to always have good Culture games. Had I been more focused on SV, I'd probably have even more tricks to stimulate pop growth. Yes, science and culture compliment each other, but little differences like saving money to buy science buildings is something you don't do in a Culture focused game.

I'll give another good example of how differing play styles really changes results. I hate losing units. When I'm warring, I am very patient and cautious. Others are much more into ramming units down the AI's throat. The 2nd way gets you faster victories in war, but there is a tradeoff of needing to build more units and therefore less infrastructure. Both work.



Should be pretty soon as I have a Trireme out relatively early. Will make sure to save plenty of gold to maybe get a quick ally. Thanks for the tip.

I usually use my first trade route for a nearby AI to get that early science boost. Only my second TR is used internally. I have noticed that both vadalaz and you are outright better in evaluating the positioning of expands from a growth perspective.

Ur might be hiding a little bit more than that...

 

[Shark Diver]

I usually use my first trade route for a nearby AI to get that early science boost. Only my second TR is used internally.

100% agreed on 1st trade route going to an AI. In almost all "normal" games, my first expo has a BO of Caravan - Library, and hopefully I can chop out that Caravan.

The 2nd one is situation dependent. Do I anticipate having the happiness to drive growth? Do I have CS quests, particularly Cultural or Religious CS? Do I need to make an ally?

I have noticed that both vadalaz and you are outright better in evaluating the positioning of expands from a growth perspective.

City placement really does matter. It seems that many learned the finer points of this game watching Multi-player videos, where city placement has to prioritize defense. Playing against AI, it's rare that they ever even get a shot on one of your cities, so you can focus more on higher yielding positioning.

There are many "rules" for city placement, depending on your goals. You already know about my affinity for settling cities on hills, and we all love river tiles, but the rest of it just becomes instinctive over time. I used to hate placing expos where they would have any overlapping tiles, but then over time realized that in most games, cities only work about half of their available tiles. If a city has enough food and production from ~10 tiles, it is settleable.

 

[vadalaz]

@Shark Diver, @Nizef - thank you for the compliments.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to engage in conversation with Vadalaz as much as possible.

I'm happy to talk about Civ5. I wish I knew people in real life that shared this hobby as well, but I haven't been able to convert anyone yet.

From comparing the few games where Valadaz and I had very similar empires, the difference in play style is subtle, but readily apparent. He will consistently have slightly bigger cities than I do, and I focus on growth quite a bit. This is a great example of the hierarchy of priorities we all place in our games. I believe the biggest difference is he uses more internal trade routes, while I usually have 2-3 external all game long going after CS quests. Population is an incredibly important driver of all things in this game, and my own play style really improved when I made it a higher priority.

Yeah, most of the time I use internal trade routes. Some exceptions are:

- My first caravan often goes to an AI too, particularly if I'm trying to get a DoF with them, or if I'm beelining an early military tech like Machinery with domination victory in mind
- I'll complete CS quests if that pushes my influence on them to ally status. A trade route is an easy quest you can complete at any point in the game, so sometimes I'll try to time them with other CS quests for a single huge influence boost

City placement really does matter. It seems that many learned the finer points of this game watching Multi-player videos, where city placement has to prioritize defense. Playing against AI, it's rare that they ever even get a shot on one of your cities, so you can focus more on higher yielding positioning.

There are many "rules" for city placement, depending on your goals. You already know about my affinity for settling cities on hills, and we all love river tiles, but the rest of it just becomes instinctive over time. I used to hate placing expos where they would have any overlapping tiles, but then over time realized that in most games, cities only work about half of their available tiles. If a city has enough food and production from ~10 tiles, it is settleable.

I think overlapping tiles can be very useful in the early game, when the expos don't have enough improved tiles around them and you need to get them up to speed. You can borrow a good tile from another expo or even the capital, e.g. an improved Wheat farm, while the capital is working hills and building Settlers. As another example, in #127 I had two expos that could work Mt Kili, so I juggled the tile between them for faster early border growth.

 

[Shark Diver]

I'm happy to talk about Civ5. I wish I knew people in real life that shared this hobby as well, but I haven't been able to convert anyone yet.

I've got a few real life friends who play Civ 5, but only 1 is near the level of this thread. One buddy might even be lurking here right now, as I sent him a link to my first post back on these forums (the super fast Incan game). He's at the point where he can win on Diety about half of the time. As we all know, the next leap from there is the fun one. Joseph, if you're out there, it's time to sign in and join the conversation.

I think overlapping tiles can be very useful in the early game, when the expos don't have enough improved tiles around them and you need to get them up to speed. You can borrow a good tile from another expo or even the capital, e.g. an improved Wheat farm, while the capital is working hills and building Settlers. As another example, in #127 I had two expos that could work Mt Kili, so I juggled the tile between them for faster early border growth.

This is something I don't do enough of. The swapping of a Culture tile for border growth is really smart. I'm going to try to remember this concept the next time I have KSM in a game. I'd think strategic tile swapping in that scenario could also pay some real dividends.

A trade route is an easy quest you can complete at any point in the game,

Don't these expire eventually if you don't satisfy the request? Again, thinking with a CV focus, I want my external TR's spreading Tourism as early as possible, so I prioritize CS TR's early in the game. If they ever make a real next iteration of Civ5, I hope they improve the Trade Route options. It's an important part of the game that is a bit simplistic now compared to some of the other dynamics.

(For the record, I've got zero interest in Civ 6. I watched a few videos and didn't like the look or feel. Is it playable yet?)

 

[vadalaz]

Don't these expire eventually if you don't satisfy the request?

They don't, and neither do the quests to convert the city to your religion or to generate some specific type of Great Person. I'm pretty sure these quests only get cancelled if you DoW or demand tribute from the CS. Interestingly, the 30-turn faith generation and the barb camp quests don't get cancelled when you demand tribute, while most (if not all) others do. Not sure what the logic behind that is.

(For the record, I've got zero interest in Civ 6. I watched a few videos and didn't like the look or feel. Is it playable yet?)

Same here, I think the game just doesn't look good. I played it a little bit at launch, and both the map and the minimap were a pain to read. Civ5's interface feels much more intuitive to me.

 

[Shark Diver]

They don't, and neither do the quests to convert the city to your religion or to generate some specific type of Great Person. I'm pretty sure these quests only get cancelled if you DoW or demand tribute from the CS. Interestingly, the 30-turn faith generation and the barb camp quests don't get cancelled when you demand tribute, while most (if not all) others do. Not sure what the logic behind that is.

Very interesting. I almost never demand tribute. On the rare occasions I have a military that can do so, it rarely occurs to me. Even when I get some great ruin luck, I almost never have top military in the early game, and in DomV games, I rely more on advanced and promoted units that don't score well with the tribute mechanism.

I am half-tempted to play some Immortal games so I can get a better feel for the Tribute part of the game, but on Diety it just doesn't seem to be an option in the vast majority of my games. I'm too busy building infrastructure to amass the raw military score.

 

[Nizef]

Tribute on Deity is very situational and usually I only achieve it in the middle- or lategame when going for a DomV. A game with Attila might be a different story and I remember having tributed early on Diety with the Huns not that long ago.

About city distances, I nowadays aim for 4-5 tiles in between. Since there are 6 tiles in the first ring and 12 in the second, that is usually enough for most expands since they will be working specialist slots as well.