Espionage

[Lord Parkin]

Score change for pop isn't map size dependent, it's map dependent. A subtle difference, but an important one.

Ah, okay. So which map types have different points per pop? I guess Terra would be one (since it's larger than regular maps of the same size setting), and Highlands might be another (since it's smaller than regular maps of the same size setting). Am I along the right lines? Just guessing really.

 

[azzaman333]

Ah, okay. So which map types have different points per pop? I guess Terra would be one (since it's larger than regular maps of the same size setting), and Highlands might be another (since it's smaller than regular maps of the same size setting). Am I along the right lines? Just guessing really.

It's not even map type. Each individual map has a different "maximum" population that is used to calculate the population component of the score.

 

[Irgy]

At least two or three (I've forgotten now) civs definately have population 2, you can see it in the "top cities" screen. If we were watching more closely we'd know when they changed. I'd hazard to guess though that it's the two civs on 51

 

[AlphaShard]

It was probably last turn or one before that since I did post we were number one in top five cities.

 

[Lord Parkin]

There are three size 2 cities, and almost certainly two of them belong to the people with 51 points (Amazons and Merlot).

 

[DaveShack]

Can we infer that the teams with pop 2 cities have not built workers? Or is that too much of a stretch? Strategically that could mean they want to work their two seafood (assuming they have two) or they built a land exploration unit. Possibly before they found out they're on islands, if they are. Some have much higher soldiers counts...

 

[DaveShack]

On the top 5 cities page, 4 have pop 2 now. So I think the other team that gained in score on turn roll (Carthage) grew to pop 2.

Only one has a higher soldier count. I didn't look very closely before posting the above.

 

[Trystero]

Can we infer that the teams with pop 2 cities have not built workers? Or is that too much of a stretch? Strategically that could mean they want to work their two seafood (assuming they have two) or they built a land exploration unit. Possibly before they found out they're on islands, if they are. Some have much higher soldiers counts...

It's possible they went with Work Boats first to allow growth. We haven't grown because we worked the Plains Forested Hill while we were building the WB and then went straight to the Worker, but other could have gone WB > WB.

The soldier count thing confused me for a long time. You don't get soldiers for demographic purposes just by building military. You get increases in the soldiers demo # for pop growth and for researching techs like Sailing or AH. This is a pretty informative thread on this topic.

 

[azzaman333]

Can we infer that the teams with pop 2 cities have not built workers? Or is that too much of a stretch? Strategically that could mean they want to work their two seafood (assuming they have two) or they built a land exploration unit. Possibly before they found out they're on islands, if they are. Some have much higher soldiers counts...

Some teams could've gone worker first and then grown.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Can we infer that the teams with pop 2 cities have not built workers? Or is that too much of a stretch? Strategically that could mean they want to work their two seafood (assuming they have two) or they built a land exploration unit. Possibly before they found out they're on islands, if they are. Some have much higher soldiers counts...

If their pop 2 increase was early enough, then they couldn't have built a Worker first. Unfortunately no-one checked this until last turn, so we can't be certain when they grew to size 2. In any event, since we're one turn away from a Worker ourselves, it's fair to assume that any other team - even if they grew to size 2 first - could have a Worker at least by this turn or next turn.

On the top 5 cities page, 4 have pop 2 now. So I think the other team that gained in score on turn roll (Carthage) grew to pop 2.

Yep, that's probably right.

It's possible they went with Work Boats first to allow growth. We haven't grown because we worked the Plains Forested Hill while we were building the WB and then went straight to the Worker, but other could have gone WB > WB.

That's possible.

The soldier count thing confused me for a long time. You don't get soldiers for demographic purposes just by building military. You get increases in the soldiers demo # for pop growth and for researching techs like Sailing or AH. This is a pretty informative thread on this topic.

Yeah, exactly. More than likely they researched Bronze Working, and thus their soldier count went up.

 

[AlphaShard]

Team Merlot put up a very funny video, apparently the General thought they won the game. *heh* I guess they had an animal spawn? It's probably not really saying much though it does imply they are also on an Island just further confirming our theory of island starts. Though it was funny to imagine "we've defeated the animals we've won!"

 

[Lord Parkin]

It's turn 20 and we just got the first set of points from land. Interestingly, not all teams seem to have gotten the exact same number of points from land... it looks like Merlot and CDZ have 2 points fewer than everyone else, so maybe they have 1-2 more coast tiles immediately adjacent to their capital? (Land points from the first ring of border expansion won't have come through yet.)

 

[Irgy]

Some teams definately have more sea in their BFC than anyone else, as could be seen on the Demographics screen. It's one of the reasons for knowing for sure that the starts are not identical.

 

[azzaman333]

It's turn 20 and we just got the first set of points from land. Interestingly, not all teams seem to have gotten the exact same number of points from land... it looks like Merlot and CDZ have 2 points fewer than everyone else, so maybe they have 1-2 more coast tiles immediately adjacent to their capital? (Land points from the first ring of border expansion won't have come through yet.)

We already knew two teams had less land from the demographics.

How many points did we get for our 8 (?) land tiles?

 

[Trystero]

Quatronia had quite the jump in score, so I had a look. It appears they built Stonehenge:

Spoiler :

 

[Lord Parkin]

Building it that early can't have been good for their early expansion/exploration. Although being Charismatic would be a nice extra bonus. I'm quite content knowing they got it though... we had no need for it, and they slowed their growth for it.

 

[AlphaShard]

They probably wanted it for culture and GP points. Though I do agree we didn't need it.

 

[AlphaShard]

In 2360 the Persians adopted Slavery according to the event log.

We currently have 36 espionage points with Persia, or is that against? At 38 points we see there Demographics and at 98 their research.

We are kicking ass in culture as Themiscyra had 84 and we got 178. We have 3.59% land area due also to our culture. While Persia is at 2%. Also Otreta is their second city. All of this was gleened from the victory conditions window.

 

[Trystero]

I think I discovered another thing about our Persian friends: they've researched Sailing. In my test game and the one Irgy just posted, it takes 4 turns to research Sailing at turn 40 (100% research). In both the test and the actual game our tech rate is 38 beakers/turn at that point. However, in the real game researching Sailing only takes 3 turns at turn 40. I was trying to figure out what was different between the test and the real game, when I realized we'd met another civ, and if they had researched Sailing, we'd get the discount. Sure enough, if I give the other civ (Korea) in Irgy's test game Sailing, it then only takes 3 turns to research at turn 40.

The Persians must have researched Sailing.

Does this make getting a settler out to the neighboring island more of a priority (that is, do we build the settler before the worker)?

Edit: Given AlphaShard's observation about Slavery (nice going, I didn't think to check the victory conditions window), we know they've self-researched Fishing, Sailing, and BW, at least. I'm wondering how much besides Mysticism they can offer us in trade at this point.

Edit2: I forgot Mining. And most likely, Animal Husbandry.

 

[Trystero]

Just to be clear from my last post:

Persia starts with Agriculture and Hunting.

If they've adopted Slavery, they would need to research Mining and Bronze Working.

Their Work Boat indicates they've researched Fishing, and our tech rate suggests Sailing as well.

Trying for Stonehenge (assuming they were being truthful about that) would require Mysticism something they'd need for a second city, as well.

Animal Husbandry also seems likely as an early tech target for someone playing Persia, unless being on an island changed their mind. So I would classify AH as 'likely'.