European thread

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by nixon
One does not use 'red scare' as in the 1950s, moreover one doesn't think the McCarthy was a particularly great man.

Too soft.

McCarthy was too soft? I guess he would have been better if he actually tried the celebrities he claimed communists for treason, and won?

CG

 

[nixon]

Originally posted by Sobieski II
hmmm.......nixon, nixon, nixon......if you can get past your commie paranoia, I think your life will be much better for you.

But on a different note, my opinions on the EU.

Enlargement could be a good thing, because it will force the EU to a crossroads. It can either intensely reform itself until it is democratic, or lose its significance.

Aha, your witty advice has been taken into consideration.

It has absolutely nothing to do with paranoia, 'tis rather your ******** left-wing attacks on the right-wingers which one finds utmost disturbing. But when you set out your cases, you defy everything which doesn't shine red. Your talking so extensively about democracy and tolerance, and you proudly fail miserably in showing some yourselves.

 

[Pillager]

The European Union

As they say, better out than in.

 

[Yoda Power]

i should never have startet this tread, it just makes people angry.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
i should never have startet this tread, it just makes people angry.

Don't feel that way, some people don't care for it, but I think it shows promise.

BTW, it seems things are getting a tad personal, and that better STOP, and I mean NOW.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Don't feel that way, some people don't care for it, but I think it shows promise.

BTW, it seems things are getting a tad personal, and that better STOP, and I mean NOW.

Way to go, Aoa! Once again you save the day!

[I just realized. That could be a cheerleader chant! ]

CG

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Originally posted by nixon


Aha, your witty advice has been taken into consideration.

It has absolutely nothing to do with paranoia, 'tis rather your ******** left-wing attacks on the right-wingers which one finds utmost disturbing. But when you set out your cases, you defy everything which doesn't shine red. Your talking so extensively about democracy and tolerance, and you proudly fail miserably in showing some yourselves.

 

[MrPresident]

Long live the European Union and all who sail within her. Some day in the future it will hopefully turn into the United States of Europe (or as I prefer the United Countries of Europe).

 

[insurgent]

Saying that the EU is communist or even anti-American is ignorant rubbish. We stood by the US throughout the Cold War and just because a number of disagreements have appeared, it doesn't mean we're either communist or anti-American. We are trying to stand on our own feet overhere, and though we may not be doing a very good job, calling us communist is ridiculous. We have a market economy, we have a free political system, the union is based on democracy and democracies, so the comparison with the USSR is very thin.

I would favour a much more pro-American approach and Í dislike the socialist tendencies of the EU. But they are exaggerated.

We are still your allies, we like you and consider you our equals, we are on your side against terrorism, we are not communist, and we wish you nothing but good.

IMHO you should see it as a positive development, that we are learning to stand on our on feet. That development could help the Americans in the world policing role. You wouldn't have to come help us all the time, we would be able to project force ourselves. It would be a strenghtening of the Western World Order, something I believe most of us want.

 

[willemvanoranje]

nixon, I stopped reading your word when you said they were commies.

EU is in my opinion, as AoA says, the beginning of the United States of Europe. The problem is it will take hundreds of years or a veeery big war or something before countries will give up so much power one can actually name it one state....and that's too long.

 

[Adebisi]

Nixon, I wonder where you get your information about the EU really...?

Have you considered the possibility that what you have heard about it is not true?

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Long live the European Union and all who sail within her. Some day in the future it will hopefully turn into the United States of Europe (or as I prefer the United Countries of Europe).

Uurgh.

I'll let the :rant: do the talking.

 

[bigfatron]

Originally posted by nixon
some French and German socialists believe that war in Europe could be averted if Europe was united and became a single entity. That's a naive and laughable assumption, which has been proven false many times since the creation of this monstrous bureaucracy.

Thousands of Europeans have been killed on European soil, yet these countries are not even a part of this 'harmonious union'. You can't create a union and then call it the 'European Union', if some countries are relinquished.

It's a nice little dream, though, Europeans living in peaceful harmony, but it will continue to remain a distant collective illusion.

Nixon, you're history's a bit out of kilter - the main drive of the original trade pact and EEC was to prevent the French and Germans going to war again - remember they had suffered four massive wars over the previous 150 years (Napoleonic, Franco-Prussian, First and Second World Wars) each of which was partly or mainly Franco-German in nature and caused masive suffering in these areas. These two countries had rpeatedly fought over the ownership of the Rhineland and Alsace-Lorraine regions, and each new peace treaty led directly to the next conflict.

The fact of other European wars (presumably you mean the Yugoslav civil war?) in the period since '45 is not proof of the EEC's failure, since this was not its goal in the first place. And the fact that there have only been one civil war on the European sub-continent in 60 years is pretty good given the previous history of at least 6 major wars in the previous 100 years.

In addition, we have moved from having the majority of European countries being fascist or communist dictatorships to having almost universal democracy - much of the impetus for these changes came from a desire to belong to the EU, for which a truly democratic system of government is a pre-requisite.

The EU has its significant problems, notably beaurocracy and lack of accountability in some functions, but it doesn't serve your case to misrepresent its positive achievements.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
The EU?

The beginings of a unified continent, curently only an economic union, but the foundation of a United States of Europe.

It has promise, but it seems the southern and eastern states don't always feel equal in the union.

AoA, as always you are a sensible and intelligent poster.
As an American, you show a good example to young hotheads like Nixon and sharpe.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Originally posted by nixon
The E.U. should be neutralized before it does more harm than good, yet it's too late.

This 'union' has been overrun by commies who are stuck in a bureaucracy of unprecedented proportions.
One's said it before, but one believes wholeheartedly in the notion that the E.U. was partially created to deter American 'aggression' following the end of the Marshall Aid. Another reason; some French and German socialists believe that war in Europe could be averted if Europe was united and became a single entity. That's a naive and laughable assumption, which has been proven false many times since the creation of this monstrous bureaucracy.

Back then there was no EU yet, only the idea of a joint economical market to have a better position in the world economy against the US and Japan. Nothing wrong with that, the US would have done exactly the same or maybe even more. Btw, the US does have special treaties with Mexico and Canada, so...
About French and German socialists....maybe they did think that, but that can't be the only reason for an european union. You can't say it's proven false though: there hasn't been a war in or betweem the EU states, never. If you refer to the Yugoslavian civil war, they're not EU, they're the only example of a war in Europe, and that area has been big trouble every now and then since the Ottoman Empire.

Thousands of Europeans have been killed on European soil, yet these countries are not even a part of this 'harmonious union'. You can't create a union and then call it the 'European Union', if some countries are relinquished.

better change the name to 'United States of Central-North-America'. Ever heard of Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, etc. It's all America....

It's a nice little dream, though, Europeans living in peaceful harmony, but it will continue to remain a distant collective illusion.
It should have remained a great capitalist trade alliance, not a striving towards 'uniting' Europe and impose the same laws etc. on each country. Europe consists of too many different etnical entities that uniting them in a union controlled by the French and German socialists simply can't work. Europe can't compete with the United States anywhere in the future, if it continues to lie on socialist foundations and creeds.

Disband it immediately, just like the U.N. ought to be disbanded too.

On the ethnical topic: true, you have the Basks, you have northern Ireland, but people from different countries have been going on holidays to each other for decades, so believe me, we know more about each other than you think. Of course there's still some anti-foreigner thingy, stereotypes, etc. But in the US people talk about Texans and stuff as well. The US' first civil war already started when the independence war wasn't even over. You can't tell me the US had one ethnic group.
Saying that the EU can't compete with the US anywhere in the future is just plain bullsh*t. There's no way you can really tell, and if you'd have to base an opinion on history, then Europe will one day have the power to compete and will it be the US searching for this kinda thing.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by nixon
The E.U. should be neutralized before it does more harm than good, yet it's too late.

This 'union' has been overrun by commies who are stuck in a bureaucracy of unprecedented proportions.
One's said it before, but one believes wholeheartedly in the notion that the E.U. was partially created to deter American 'aggression' following the end of the Marshall Aid. Another reason; some French and German socialists believe that war in Europe could be averted if Europe was united and became a single entity. That's a naive and laughable assumption, which has been proven false many times since the creation of this monstrous bureaucracy.

Thousands of Europeans have been killed on European soil, yet these countries are not even a part of this 'harmonious union'. You can't create a union and then call it the 'European Union', if some countries are relinquished.

It's a nice little dream, though, Europeans living in peaceful harmony, but it will continue to remain a distant collective illusion.
It should have remained a great capitalist trade alliance, not a striving towards 'uniting' Europe and impose the same laws etc. on each country. Europe consists of too many different etnical entities that uniting them in a union controlled by the French and German socialists simply can't work. Europe can't compete with the United States anywhere in the future, if it continues to lie on socialist foundations and creeds.

Disband it immediately, just like the U.N. ought to be disbanded too.

Only in your fevered dreams, boy!
These 'communists' give the USA a great deal of trade.
So please try to see beyond you fantasy vision of the world.

Communism is DEAD!

Remember 1989-90?

No you wouldn't, because you were still in daipers no doubt...

 

[Shabbaman]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
i should never have startet this tread, it just makes people angry.

No way! Maybe you should look at where the people come from that answered your post earlier. They're from outside the EU. The people who should judge the union should be the people from within. But maybe it's more a history forum discussion.

Personally, I think that the EU is a good thing in the aspect of issues that surpass a national level. Such as, the environment, which should be treated on a regional level. The EU makes such things possible. Besides that, it's the ultimate peacekeeper on the European mainland. I don't suspect the french or german tanks rolling over my plains nowadays (I didn't before either, but my grandparents did)

 

[insurgent]

I find it kind of frightening that the world's most powerful nation hasn't grown confident on power but actually has grown paranoid. Every single trace of disagreement with the US seems to suddenly be communism and attempts to bring down the USA.
Now Europe is suddenly communist. There seems to be no factual foundation to support this allegation. And now saying that the Union was founded by communists or socialists or whatever is even more ridiculous.
The Union was founded, with the support of the USA, by free-marketeers and politicians eager to leave the violent history of Europe behind. The fact that the French and Germans - the two nations whose wars had raged on the entire continent - were most eager isn't really surprising. Today it is a free trade area based on democracy and democracies - not exactly communist ideals.

Communist my a$$!

 

[HotDog Fish]

Originally posted by bigfatron


Nixon, you're history's a bit out of kilter - the main drive of the original trade pact and EEC was to prevent the French and Germans going to war again - remember they had suffered four massive wars over the previous 150 years (Napoleonic, Franco-Prussian, First and Second World Wars) each of which was partly or mainly Franco-German in nature and caused masive suffering in these areas. These two countries had rpeatedly fought over the ownership of the Rhineland and Alsace-Lorraine regions, and each new peace treaty led directly to the next conflict.

The fact of other European wars (presumably you mean the Yugoslav civil war?) in the period since '45 is not proof of the EEC's failure, since this was not its goal in the first place. And the fact that there have only been one civil war on the European sub-continent in 60 years is pretty good given the previous history of at least 6 major wars in the previous 100 years.

In addition, we have moved from having the majority of European countries being fascist or communist dictatorships to having almost universal democracy - much of the impetus for these changes came from a desire to belong to the EU, for which a truly democratic system of government is a pre-requisite.

The EU has its significant problems, notably beaurocracy and lack of accountability in some functions, but it doesn't serve your case to misrepresent its positive achievements.

You know bigatron, you're bigfat right! The EU is having it's problems right now, but I think the EU is on the right track of putting the European nations together in a united front and making it a more significant power on the world stage

 

[MrPresident]

I'll let the do the talking.

It probably makes more sense than you anyway.

who are stuck in a bureaucracy of unprecedented proportions.

I believe that there are bureaucracy larger than that of the EU. Hell our own civil service is quite a bureaucracy in its own right.

Every single trace of disagreement with the US seems to suddenly be communism and attempts to bring down the USA.

I think you will find that is only the paranoid vocal minority of the US and not the sensible, rational majority. And to be fair to them, what else do you expect from a communism-hating paranoid group but paranoia based on the belief that the EU is communist?

Communist my a$$!

I am not sure if it is possible for your ass (I thought we could use that word) to be communist.

It should have remained a great capitalist trade alliance

When was it a great capitalist trade alliance? I must have missed that stage.