European thread

[Pillager]

Originally posted by insurgent
Today it is a free trade area based on democracy and democracies - not exactly communist ideals.

Communist my a$$!

Based on democracy. Hmm...isn't that stretching your point a little too far?

Communist. Despite all its faults, it isn't Communist, no. Blimey, even the Telegraph wouldn't go that far!

 

[Pillager]

I've just received an e-mail at work notifying me that it is "European Week of Health and Safety at Work"

Amongst other delights for this red-letter week, we are being offered "Manual Handling Assessors" Courses & "Practical Moving and Lifting" Courses, plus "Violence at Work - New Guidelines". Presumably, don't punch your boss, it won't help your career. Or, if you're boss stabs you in the head with the letter opener, you have the right to raise your hand politely and object.

Yes, this is serious.

This is where my tax pounds are going. After being siphoned off in Brussels and Strasbourg, of course.

 

[MrPresident]

This is where my tax pounds are going. After being siphoned off in Brussels and Strasbourg, of course.

As if your tax pounds would be better spent in Whitehall.

 

[Pillager]

Best: By myself
Poor: Whitehall
Worst: Brussels

 

[insurgent]

I don't like the semi-socialist, isolationistic, bureaucratic tendencies of the Union, but I am a supporter of a united Europe in partnership with the Americans.

 

[MrPresident]

Best: By myself

Now you living in dreamland. Are you seriously saying that you know how to spend your money better than the government? God, next you will be saying that you don't need censorship because you know more about what you should see than the state.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by MrPresident

Now you living in dreamland. Are you seriously saying that you know how to spend your money better than the government? God, next you will be saying that you don't need censorship because you know more about what you should see than the state.

I know, it's a shocker isn't it? I'm allowed to choose how much food I should eat as well. This freedom, eh? It never ends.

 

[MrPresident]

I know, it's a shocker isn't it? I'm allowed to choose how much food I should eat as well. This freedom, eh? It never ends.

It does end. It ends with the head of state and not being allowed to choose who it is.

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by insurgent
Saying that the EU is communist or even anti-American is ignorant rubbish. We stood by the US throughout the Cold War and just because a number of disagreements have appeared, it doesn't mean we're either communist or anti-American. We are trying to stand on our own feet overhere, and though we may not be doing a very good job, calling us communist is ridiculous. We have a market economy, we have a free political system, the union is based on democracy and democracies, so the comparison with the USSR is very thin.

I would favour a much more pro-American approach and Í dislike the socialist tendencies of the EU. But they are exaggerated.

We are still your allies, we like you and consider you our equals, we are on your side against terrorism, we are not communist, and we wish you nothing but good.

IMHO you should see it as a positive development, that we are learning to stand on our on feet. That development could help the Americans in the world policing role. You wouldn't have to come help us all the time, we would be able to project force ourselves. It would be a strenghtening of the Western World Order, something I believe most of us want.

Originally posted by insurgent
I find it kind of frightening that the world's most powerful nation hasn't grown confident on power but actually has grown paranoid. Every single trace of disagreement with the US seems to suddenly be communism and attempts to bring down the USA.
Now Europe is suddenly communist. There seems to be no factual foundation to support this allegation. And now saying that the Union was founded by communists or socialists or whatever is even more ridiculous.
The Union was founded, with the support of the USA, by free-marketeers and politicians eager to leave the violent history of Europe behind. The fact that the French and Germans - the two nations whose wars had raged on the entire continent - were most eager isn't really surprising. Today it is a free trade area based on democracy and democracies - not exactly communist ideals.

Communist my a$$!

Originally posted by nixon
The E.U. should be neutralized before it does more harm than good, yet it's too late.

This 'union' has been overrun by commies who are stuck in a bureaucracy of unprecedented proportions.
One's said it before, but one believes wholeheartedly in the notion that the E.U. was partially created to deter American 'aggression' following the end of the Marshall Aid. Another reason; some French and German socialists believe that war in Europe could be averted if Europe was united and became a single entity. That's a naive and laughable assumption, which has been proven false many times since the creation of this monstrous bureaucracy.

Thousands of Europeans have been killed on European soil, yet these countries are not even a part of this 'harmonious union'. You can't create a union and then call it the 'European Union', if some countries are relinquished.

It's a nice little dream, though, Europeans living in peaceful harmony, but it will continue to remain a distant collective illusion.
It should have remained a great capitalist trade alliance, not a striving towards 'uniting' Europe and impose the same laws etc. on each country. Europe consists of too many different etnical entities that uniting them in a union controlled by the French and German socialists simply can't work. Europe can't compete with the United States anywhere in the future, if it continues to lie on socialist foundations and creeds.

Disband it immediately, just like the U.N. ought to be disbanded too.

No coments in order to avoid being banned...

Originally posted by willemvanoranje
nixon, I stopped reading your word when you said they were commies.
EU is in my opinion, as AoA says, the beginning of the United States of Europe. The problem is it will take hundreds of years or a veeery big war or something before countries will give up so much power one can actually name it one state....and that's too long.

 

[Panda]

Sums up my views pretty well

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
The EU?

The beginings of a unified continent, curently only an economic union, but the foundation of a United States of Europe.

It has promise, but it seems the southern and eastern states don't always feel equal in the union.

And bearing that last point, I can't grasp why they want to bring in all those East European countries

They're rushing things too fast right now.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

In time the dream will wither away in the face of reality and adversity. The current era of peace and brotherhood is an historical anomaly.

 

[Insane Badger]

i'm not too sure how people can claim the era of peace in Europe was brought about by the EEC/EU.

It was brought about more by the fact there was an armed peace between the West and East,in-fighting simply wasn't an option for states like France and Germany.There was simply nothing to gain from it.

In-fact if anything is going to bring a war to europe in the future its the EU,not that its likely but the least unlikely.

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by Insane Badger
It was brought about more by the fact there was an armed peace between the West and East,in-fighting simply wasn't an option for states like France and Germany.There was simply nothing to gain from it.

Are you trying to apply logics to war?!?

If they didn't like each other and there were open wounds, they would start a war. No doubt about that.

Like in the WW II. Or in others previous to it...

EU is the soluction to pass military wars to diplo disputes.

Example: Spain always don't honour it's word about water with Portugal and it has even move rivers to the south desrespecting agreements with us. In 13th century (or 19th, or...) it would have been a war. Today, we just put a charge in the EU about it...

EU is the soluction and WILL prevail.

 

[Insane Badger]

Originally posted by Portuguese


Are you trying to apply logics to war?!?

If they didn't like each other and there were open wounds, they would start a war. No doubt about that.

Like in the WW II. Or in others previous to it...

EU is the soluction to pass military wars to diplo disputes.

Example: Spain always don't honour it's word about water with Portugal and it has even move rivers to the south desrespecting agreements with us. In 13th century (or 19th, or...) it would have been a war. Today, we just put a charge in the EU about it...

EU is the soluction and WILL prevail.

you're giving the EU far too much credit.Today war isn't an option between major states because of nuclear weapons.For example if Germany invaded France she could kiss goodbye to all most of her major cities.

Then add to that there's a modern mindset that is vehemently opposed to war that wasn't there in the past.This is nothing to do with the EU but a natural evolution after having WW2 occur on its soil.

Also we could apply disputes like yours to others in the world.For example if the US violated an agreement with Canada over moving rivers will it mean war?

 

[Heffalump]

The EU is caught in a situation not entirely dis-similiar to that of the US in the early 1800s. That is, not entirely sure whether they want to be a single nation, or a collection of independent states.

In the US it took a civil war to sort that out. I don't believe that will happen in Europe.

But what I know WON'T happen is for things to stay the same. Europe will either follow it's current momentum and become a single state, or spike the foundations they've laid and give up such grand illusions.

My guess is the former since they'll be too sheepish to admit it was all a bad idea.

 

[Portuguese]

It's NOT a bad idea and it will work.

I'm sure about it: we will unite, sooner or later and act as one in all aspects, except for local laws and traditions and some diplo issues, due to history traditions.

EU is a good plataform to work with and it will prove it for itself.

 

[Malachai]

well I allso think its a bad idea with all those new countries and Im quite sure that EU will soon go under because of that. I belive that a better union would be a union with France, Germany, the Benelux countries and the nordic countries + perhaps austria.

 

[Toasty]

I think the EU is a very good thing in its ideals. What could be bad about a unified Europe? Suddenly, the nations of France and Germany are the 'good cops' of the world, perferring to coax and direct the 3rd world. And yet, America stands out as seeking to answer most, if not all situations, with a gun.

Unfortunately the EU is neither Communist nor Anti-American...I have found very little, if anything, I can disagree with in Insurgent's posts. Europe as a whole is left-leaning, and the largest purge in the world in order to change that by America will simply not "fix" that. But just because some insolent prick like Schroeder seeks to be re-elected by hitting on the Anti-American ticket does not make the EU a bad idea, nor does it make the whole EU against America. All of the countries in the EU helped us in the war in Afghanistan, and as much as some of these right-wing hotheads might dislike it, they have every right to question our moves, our motives, and our actions when it directly affects them.

The EU is, by and large, a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Logain]

Originally posted by Panda
And bearing that last point, I can't grasp why they want to bring in all those East European countries

They're rushing things too fast right now.

Well we've passed the Nice Treaty so they're in if they want to.

 

[willemvanoranje]

I think it's too early for them, but there are some factors that make it time I think. The most important I think is, that the economy is expanded with millions of people and that the eastern countries would probably form their own block or union if they wouldn't be allowed in. Last and least as well is the militaristic-strategic element, but that's not important enough to go explaining about now, although it would be my favourite topic