European thread

[Ancient Grudge]

Quote:
Another point needs to be made, though it speaks against my arguments, even if you should leave the EU, you would probably still benefit from the free trade area, as much as you can't afford losing your trade with us, we can't afford losing our trade with you. So you probably wouldn't even in that case suffer from "outer market" taxes.


exactly good point i say step out now before we become even more involved. Or we cud stay in and see if any other E.U countries want are asylum seekers eh?

 

[insurgent]

I believe all these so-called "practical" or economic arguments are really just excuses. This is not about agricultural taxes and support, about fees on imports. It is about visions, futures, mutual dependence securing stability, it is anout greater things.
Great things that I applaud.

And I believe it should be the road of the UK too, but if they don't want to be apart of it, then let them...

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Its a shame the euro fat cats don't share your vision.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

If that your views were hapening at this moment in time i would support the UK staying in the E.U but at the moment it isnt benifical for the Uk. If only u where head of the E.U insurgent

 

[insurgent]

Oh, thanks!

But another thing. How will you handle the agricultural support? Surely, if your agriculture doesn't receive as much support as in the EU countries, it won't be able to handle the competition.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

Are agriculture is already failing thanks to mad cow disease and foot and mouth. How bout if we stop paying the subsidies to spain to help them fish our waters maybe this money can be put into our agriculture not the rest of the E.U especially the new countries which are going to be allowed in the E.U are going to need tons of cash which if we werent in the E.U we wudnt have to pay

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by insurgent
Oh, thanks!

But another thing. How will you handle the agricultural support? Surely, if your agriculture doesn't receive as much support as in the EU countries, it won't be able to handle the competition.

Well, the CAP costs us money, so we'd be saving money by nt participating. Plus, agriculture is a far smaller proportion of our economy than France, for example.

Also, A-G has a point in that it would be nice if we could rebuild our fishing - actually be allowed to block others from fishing in our waters as we are currently blocked from theirs.

 

[willemvanoranje]

But what about the agriculture in the new countries as Poland? I think it's good that we Dutch threatened to not approve/confirm the treaty of Nice unless structural changes are made in the agriculture support.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

Exactly SUPPORT if the UK removes itself from the E.U it wont have to support/subsidiese lesser developed countries such as poland and spain we will be able to improve are own agriculture!

 

[MrPresident]

Mr President is a comedian if he thinks that jeremy clarkson isnt a comedian, because that just makes me laugh

Clarkson is not a comedian. He may make you laugh but that doesn't make him a comedian. Hell I laugh at John "two jags" Prescott doesn't make him a comedian. I guarantee you that if you asked 100 people in Britain if Clarkson was a comedian or not the majority would say no. Unless you are one of those people who think that "everyone is a comedian".

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

MrPresident why don't you stop this sorry little rant. If it irritates you that much then start a new thread. Lets not divert the topic here.

Back to the matter at hand. Just what is it that Britain gets in return for membership to the EU? I would most appreciate it if someone could otline these 'benefits' for me. Is it just me that thinks Britain is getting taken for a ride (refer to Pillager's point on fishing boundaries). Agriculture in Britain is going through serious problems and the EU does not seem to help. The French did not even want to buy our meat even after it had been given the all clear. They just refused to listen to EU demands to lift the ban. The usual irritating attitude. Just how can europe ever become one entity when so many stunts like this are pulled? Azerbajian is applying for membership along with Georgia (I think). These two countries have serious mafia problems (no joke) and most money given out to them goes into pockets. Im not intrested in funding a countries growth until we have sorted out all of our problems. Just what is so wrong about looking after number one? One more thing, why do we pay so much for so many things from household items to petrol in comparison to the rest of europe?

Don't vote Labour.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Back to the matter at hand. Just what is it that Britain gets in return for membership to the EU? I would most appreciate it if someone could otline these 'benefits' for me.

Being part of The largest free trade area in the world, and being able to influence it's rules and regulations? (Countries in The EFTA have no sway on the rules that are imposed upon them as being part of The Free trade area, and are generally small, and to be frank, unimportant states that have no intrest in any great political co-operation that goes with being part of The EU.)

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Agriculture in Britain is going through serious problems and the EU does not seem to help.

Have you ever heard of The common agricultural policy, sir, that gives a vast sum of money to these poor, impoverished farmers?

Incidentally, The CAP aside, why should The EU help British farmers?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
The French did not even want to buy our meat even after it had been given the all clear. They just refused to listen to EU demands to lift the ban. The usual irritating attitude.

The only reason that we were able to take any action against The French ban was because we were a part of The EU.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Azerbajian is applying for membership along with Georgia (I think). These two countries have serious mafia problems (no joke) and most money given out to them goes into pockets.

I don't believe either of those countries have applied, and if either of them have, they aren't going to get in anytime quick. Period.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Im not intrested in funding a countries growth until we have sorted out all of our problems.

We are never going to 'solve all our problems', so that is a nonsensical statement. If we ever came to a point were we had 'solved all our problems' then there would be no need for politics at all and we would all live in a stateless Marxist utopia.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Just what is so wrong about looking after number one?

It depends how you define 'looking after number one'.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Don't vote Labour.

As if there's currently any alternative.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Originally posted by Ancient Grudge
Exactly SUPPORT if the UK removes itself from the E.U it wont have to support/subsidiese lesser developed countries such as poland and spain we will be able to improve are own agriculture!

that support will not go on for very long anymore. Besides, the UK gets a lot of money from the EU as well, think about that. Another thing, the agriculture probably can't be improved too much anymore, and supporting them and by that letting them live artificially is gonna cost a whole lot a money; more than ever. That's why this insane thing must, and will stop.

 

[Hamlet]

CAP should be phased out as soon as possible. There is absolutely no reason to subsidise farming any more than any other industry in today's climate.

God knows, the countries of Eastern Europe want to encourage urbanisation.

 

[MrPresident]

CAP should be phased out as soon as possible.

Completely agree. Farmers have been protected from the real world for far too long.

the UK gets a lot of money from the EU as well

I believe we give the EU more money that we recieve.

MrPresident why don't you stop this sorry little rant.

I don't believe my rant was little or sorry but I suppose that is a judgement call. It is just that I think you have to actually do someone be called a comedian not just be considered "funny". If I cook my own fries that doesn't make me a fast food retailer now does it?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

What is the point of having a cake you can't eat?

Agriculture in Britain is going through serious problems

These are fundamental problems. Basically a lot of farmers in Britain are inefficient meaning that they aren't compete in a free market so they require government subsidies to keep them going. However increasing these farmers are becoming even more inefficient (compared to the rest of the world) requiring more and more government money. But the government doesn't want to give them this money hence the problem. I believe the solution is to phase out all farm subsidies, this will be very painful to the farming community but it is benefitical in the long run.

Just what is it that Britain gets in return for membership to the EU?

One word, trade.

why do we pay so much for so many things from household items to petrol in comparison to the rest of europe?

Petrol is because of the high rate of tax. Cars is because we drive on the left hand side of the road. I am not sure about the rest.

Im not intrested in funding a countries growth until we have sorted out all of our problems.

But funding a countries growth helps sort out our problems. In a world of increasing globalisation and specialisation it is in our interests to have economically strong trading partners. They buy our products and we buy theirs. This leads to increased trade, increased employment, increased consumption, lower prices and higher economic growth.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Ok forgive my ignorance concerning the economics. Unlike some people on this forum I do not pretend to be an expert in everything. Surely though even if the Uk was not part of the EU we would still benfit from free trade because we are too valiable to other countries?

To be quite honest Hamlet I would rather see our cash going into the NHS, public transport and the MOD than throwing it all away to the Spanish so they can make some more roads. Im not talking about forging a utopia and I think you know that. Drop the patronising act.

 

[MrPresident]

Surely though even if the Uk was not part of the EU we would still benfit from free trade because we are too valiable to other countries?

So you want Britain to leave the EU and then come back the next day and say can we still have all the benefits of free trade? It seems a little naive to me. Surely America is far more valuable to the EU than Britain yet we don't have free trade with them.

To be quite honest Hamlet I would rather see our cash going into the NHS, public transport and the MOD than throwing it all away to the Spanish so they can make some more roads. Im not talking about forging a utopia and I think you know that. Drop the patronising act.

First of all I don't believe it is an act. Hamlet really is that patronising. Secondly, it is in your interests that Spain builds road. British tourists to the area use them, as do British lorries, and Spanish lorries bound for Britain. And more importantly it will boost Spain's economy allowing it to experience economic growth. This will result in more spending/demand which means more demand for British goods resulting in us experiencing economic growth. And also more demand for European goods meaning they will also experience economic growth and so demand more of our products and so we will experience more economic growth. And then we will demand more of their products and so on and so on. Understand or was that too patronising?

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

I did not say I wanted the UK to leave the union but I would like to see some positive results of the UK being in. What are the success stories besides the free trade? What are the benefits of a single european currency? I am not well versed in economics as you have probably gathered but I am intrested. You say that these cash injections into Spain will benefit us, but when. Obviously it is a long term operation but are there results to show greater trade prosperity between us? These long term projects could take years to show benefits whilst the NHS, education and public transport still suffer.

Could someone please explain to me the score with this fishing boundaries business. Why are the Spanish fishing in our waters? Are we to blame for depleted stocks around their shores?

Finally is it possible that europe could amalgamate into one powerful trading nation? Or is it likely that national ties and priorities will keep this a distant dream. (Rather hypocrytical of me stating that) Of the record I would be elated to belong to one powerful european nation but I am concerned how it is achieved. Im sure a single currency is a great step in the right direction and a part of me is all for it but I would still find it hard to let go of the pound. It is, after all an important part of our heritage. Ultimately if we have to do away with a part of our heritage to advance then I say it is worth while.

Just what is it that is keeping the UK from accepting the euro anyway? Could it be that certain people are trying to prevent it because with a single currency it would be easeier to spot the price difference across countries for these items we seem to be overcharged for? Just a thought.

 

[MrPresident]

Surely though even if the Uk was not part of the EU we would still benfit from free trade because we are too valiable to other countries?

I did not say I wanted the UK to leave the union but I would like to see some positive results of the UK being in.

I was merely responding to your question about whether or not the UK could still benefit from free trade if it wasn't part of the EU.

What are the success stories besides the free trade? What are the benefits of a single european currency?

Benefits of the Euro deserves another thread (althought there is probably already one if you have a little look). And there aren't really any success stories from free trade it gives gradual long term benefits not short, sharp and sweet tabloid benefits.

I am not well versed in economics as you have probably gathered but I am intrested.

You don't seem to be well versed in the English language either.

These long term projects could take years to show benefits whilst the NHS, education and public transport still suffer.

Short term lose for long term gain. And I think any money put into the NHS, education and public transport would be put into some sort of long term project.

Finally is it possible that europe could amalgamate into one powerful trading nation?

That is the plan. The creation of a single market with an external tariff.

It is, after all an important part of our heritage.

I disagree. It is just a currency, nothing more, nothing less. And we changed our currency system in ther 1970s, why not change it now?

Just what is it that is keeping the UK from accepting the euro anyway?

The public.

Could it be that certain people are trying to prevent it because with a single currency it would be easeier to spot the price difference across countries for these items we seem to be overcharged for?

Price transparency is one of the benefits of the Euro but I doubt that people are trying to stop its adoption because it. The only companies who would be concerned about that would be the ones who trade in at least one other EU country and because of that the Euro would be far more benefitcal to them (no transaction costs). The main businesses against the Euro are small business who fear giving away control of the interest rate.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Originally posted by MrPresident
You don't seem to be well versed in the English language either.

Thanks for pointing that out. It was most helpful. Why not help me out rather than put me down. Unless of course you have a problem with me in which case you can P.M me where we can discuss it over email outside of the forum. This thread has helped change my mind on a couple of issues. Mostly due to a greater understanding. None the less I do have you to thank. Whats wrong with showing some mutual respect? I would rather not bicker about such matters with a fellow Brit.

Short term lose for long term gain. And I think any money put into the NHS, education and public transport would be put into some sort of long term project.

Im not saying that miracles will happen immediately but surely benefits are going to be more noticable and benefical to the public right now. Have you ever been on an NHS waiting list?

The public.

Is that not largely the fault of the government for not getting the information about the euro across to the pupblic?