Evidence for creationism

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What probably really happened, there was a flood, nowhere near worldwide, but some guy who lived near a lake and already had a boat, put his lifestock on it and saved them. Others had their lifestock killed in the flood and stories about this man who saved his were told and retold until the Story of Noah's Arc as we know it evolved.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
What probably really happened, there was a flood, nowhere near worldwide, but some guy who lived near a lake and already had a boat, put his lifestock on it and saved them. Others had their lifestock killed in the flood and stories about this man who saved his were told and retold until the Story of Noah's Arc as we know it evolved.
Click to expand...

But didn't the writers of the Torah just crib the whole flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh during the Babylonian exile?
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
I'd have to google at least 3 parts of that sentence to have an informed reply, instead I'll just go "Yeah!"
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Well the first I heard of this theory was in a David Gemmell novel. But anyway here are some examples of analysis done:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html (this one from a creationist website trying to make out that the Biblical flood was true because floods are common in mythology, the fact that they say it's essentially the same as the Babylonian account doesn't ring any alarm bells though. I wonder why?)
In fact the whole first page gives examples of almost perfect similarities between both flood myths.

And seeing as the majority of the Torah, including the Pentateuch, was written in the Babylonian exile it is far more likely that the Hebrew account is taken from the Babylonian account and not vice-versa.

Now if god does exist why does he need to take a myth from an obviously pagan people and give it to his followers as an essential part of the religious cannon? Only sensible answers please.
 
Just google babylonian and bilbical flood similarities and you should get a lot of resources.
 
Actually, if theres any connection between the two, the story of Noah is meant as a direct refutation of the Babylonian flood story.
 
Too similar. They both even have pretty much identical endings. If the biblical story was meant as a refutation it surely would have the infidel Babylonian ark builder sinking his ship (or have god do it).
 
Except in the Epic of Gilgamesh gods don't do anything to warn Ut-Napishtim. The story of Noah is an explicit "God did it."
Theres also the matter that theres no evidence that one was cribbed from the other, and not vice versa, or that they don't both come from an independent third source.
 
I'm arguing on the balance of probability here, and considering all the similarities and the fact that best scholarship says that a lot (especially at the start) of the torah was written during the exile, it would take pretty strong evidence to knock the theory out.

Sorry for all the mixed metaphors.

But frankly I'd guess that all the mythologies are going to be somewhat cogged off one another anyway. There are not that many creation myths to go around, unless you know the science.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
What probably really happened, there was a flood, nowhere near worldwide, but some guy who lived near a lake and already had a boat, put his lifestock on it and saved them. Others had their lifestock killed in the flood and stories about this man who saved his were told and retold until the Story of Noah's Arc as we know it evolved.
Click to expand...

:lol: That's funny!

I'm not saying I believe it, but a few years ago I watched a documentary on the Black Sea and how evidence shows that from the 300' depth and below the Sea shows to be extremely ancient and has evidence of past fresh water life. Above the 300' depth the "bottom" appears very young and there's evidence of human activity and villages on a "shore" of the freshwater lake. The show postulated that at some point in time the natural damn between the Black Sea (Lake) and the Med. Sea broke, causing the saltwater to flow into the Black Lake very quickly and feeling increasing the depth of the Black Lake (now Black Sea) to its current depth (additional 300'). What these individuals believe is that this flood may be the basis of the "Great Flood" story.

Such an incident would have been a world shattering effect for those in the area. I'm not sure I believe it, but its a possibility.

Brian Shanahan said:
Too similar. They both even have pretty much identical endings.
Click to expand...

Big flood and the dudes in the boats lived. Yep, you're correct. ;)
 
Methos said:
:lol: That's funny!

I'm not saying I believe it, but a few years ago I watched a documentary on the Black Sea and how evidence shows that from the 300' depth and below the Sea shows to be extremely ancient and has evidence of past fresh water life. Above the 300' depth the "bottom" appears very young and there's evidence of human activity and villages on a "shore" of the freshwater lake. The show postulated that at some point in time the natural damn between the Black Sea (Lake) and the Med. Sea broke, causing the saltwater to flow into the Black Lake very quickly and feeling increasing the depth of the Black Lake (now Black Sea) to its current depth (additional 300'). What these individuals believe is that this flood may be the basis of the "Great Flood" story.

Such an incident would have been a world shattering effect for those in the area. I'm not sure I believe it, but its a possibility.
Click to expand...

Oh no, that myth again!
Sorry, but that's bee repeatedly debunked, in fact I distinctly remember posting scans of a scientific papers here on CFC about four years or so ago. It was a seismological study which found extensive fan-shaped deposits extending from the Black Sea into the Med, indicating that it was the BS that overflowed repeatedly into the Med, sometimes in the form of catastrophic mudstreams.

I'll try to find that post via the search, but I do not remember the thread title or the paper's title, so I fear chances are slim.
 
found my old posts:

Title
Persistent Holocene outflow from the Black Sea to the eastern Mediterranean contradicts Noah's flood hypothesis
AU: Aksu, Ali E; Hiscott, Richard N; Mudie, Peta J; Rochon, Andre; Kaminski, Michael A; Abrajano, Teofilo; Yasar, Dogan
AF: Memorial University of Newfoundland, Department of Earth Sciences, St. John's, NF, Canada (CAN); Geological Survey of Canada-Atlantic, Canada (CAN); University College London, United Kingdom (GBR); Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, United States (USA); Dokuz Eylul University, Turkey (TUR)
SO: GSA Today, vol.12, no.5, pp.4-10, May 2002
IS: ISSN 1052-5173
PB: Geological Society of America (GSA), Boulder, CO, United States (USA)
LA: English
FE: References: 24; illus. incl. sect., sketch maps
PY: 2002

OK, here it is (warning, large files):

page 1
page 2
page 3
page 4
page 5
page 6
page 7

wow, I am amazed that the files are still there. Reflects positively on CFC! :thumbsup:
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
What probably really happened, there was a flood, nowhere near worldwide, but some guy who lived near a lake and already had a boat, put his lifestock on it and saved them. Others had their lifestock killed in the flood and stories about this man who saved his were told and retold until the Story of Noah's Arc as we know it evolved.
Click to expand...

Archeological evidence shows there was a catastrophic local flood in the fertile crescent region about 5500-6000 years ago. One that only happens once every few centuries. The tale of Gilgamesh also has an account of the flood but instead of the survivors landing in the mountains, they ended up in the Caspian(or was it mediterranian sea).
 
Fallen Angel Lord said:
Archeological evidence shows there was a catastrophic local flood in the fertile crescent region about 5500-6000 years ago. One that only happens once every few centuries. The tale of Gilgamesh also has an account of the flood but instead of the survivors landing in the mountains, they ended up in the Caspian(or was it mediterranian sea).
Click to expand...
Link?
Study title?
anything really? Anything that shows it was not just your run of the mill annual flood?
 
Heh, I can remember I posted that flood story and Carlos PM-ed me those links.

But I'm wondering, those erosion marks that showed the flow of the water was actually in the other direction, couldn't those have washed away signs of an earlier flow?
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
Heh, I can remember I posted that flood story and Carlos PM-ed me those links.

But I'm wondering, those erosion marks that showed the flow of the water was actually in the other direction, couldn't those have washed away signs of an earlier flow?
Click to expand...

possibly - but how far into the past do you want to shove those people who supposedly witnessed the "flood"?
 
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