Expanded Dynamic Civ Names (EDCNs)

[KeeperOT7Keys]

This dynasty never used ''Turk'' for describing themselves until the 19. century ''The Ottomans'' is more accurate imo, actually the tribes of Turk's mostly fight against Ottoman imperialism in 15-18 centuries

 

[Mr_Hobo]

The Ottomans is the description of their civilization.

Ottoman Turks is the description of their people.

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_CIV_OTTOMAN_DESC</Tag>
<English>The Ottomans</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_CIV_TURKEY_DESC_PEOPLES</Tag>
<English>Ottoman Turks</English>
</TEXT>
<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_CIV_TURKEY_DESC_DEFAULT</Tag>
<English>Sublime Ottoman State</English>
</TEXT>

Fair enough, nice job!

 

[BenZL43]

Aceh Empire could be when Indonesia is vassal of Turkey?

 

[Leoreth]

I disagree. The Ottomans are a dynasty, not a civilization. The Ottoman Empire was clearly Turkish, even though it wasn't the only Turkish state.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Aceh Empire could be when Indonesia is vassal of Turkey?

Already in. See OP

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I disagree. The Ottomans are a dynasty, not a civilization. The Ottoman Empire was clearly Turkish, even though it wasn't the only Turkish state.

But to call their people description "Turkish Peoples" would be contrary to the perceptions of themselves.

Modern Turkey regards the Ottoman Empire as 1 out of 16 historical Turkish Empires:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_states_represented_in_Turkish_presidential_seal

rather than the Turkish Empire.

 

[BenZL43]

How about Chenla for Khmer as Indonesia vassal? Khmer Empire's first king Jayavarman II declared Khmer independence from Java.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Since Indonesia spawns at 700 AD and after the Khmer in the game, the answer to that is obviously no.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

But to call their people description "Turkish Peoples" would be contrary to the perceptions of themselves.

Modern Turkey regards the Ottoman Empire as 1 out of 16 historical Turkish Empires:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_states_represented_in_Turkish_presidential_seal

rather than the Turkish Empire.

Unfortunately much of Turkey's mainstream academic research on 'Turkishness' is heavily shrouded in comfortable myths, dirty secrets, distortions and crackpot theories, even by the standards of the region. I remember a popular state sanctioned theory that Turkish was supposedly the ancestor of all the world's languages, or academics desperately trying to prove the Hittites were somehow Turkish.
that seal includes the Huns who ravaged the Roman Empire for a few decades and then vanished as a 'turkish empire' for example

I disagree. The Ottomans are a dynasty, not a civilization. The Ottoman Empire was clearly Turkish, even though it wasn't the only Turkish state.

This actually quite an interesting question. The invading Seljuks were hardly numerous enough to permanently change much of the demographics of anatolia, they just slowly imposed their language and culture on the natives of Anatolia. Do people in Turkey look anything like those in c.asian 'stan' countries?
Ottoman Empire was the ultimate anti-ethnic empire in a lot of ways. Almost all the top level-work was foreign, elite soldiers kidnapped children from the Balkans and Caucasus, architects and merchants Armenians, bureaucrats and administrators Greeks. The arts were largely done in Persian, religion in Arabic, scholarly works in Greek.
The rulers themselves were probably mostly of European blood, considering the most powerful harem-women were from the balkans and ukraine. It wasn't until the very end of 19th century when the Empire began seeing itself as Turkish. Even after a century of ethnic cleansing about a third of it's territory is Kurdish.

But for game-play purposes... 'Turkish' is fine.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ What you said about Turkey are evidently true.

But it is my understanding that DCNs (as well as other aspects of the game) are based on how each civilization perceive (or perceived) themselves, not on how others perceive them. Nationalistic bias in the study of history is hardly unique to the Turks - I don't see why I should give them the special treatment of extra stringent objectivity.

That is the reason, for example, I changed the default DCN of the Ottomans into "Sublime Ottoman State", instead of "Ottoman Sultanate".

That is also why, given that the Ottomans/modern Turkey regard themselves as only 1 out of 16 historic Turkic civilizations, I will represent them as such. That does not mean I agree with them that such an assessment is objective.

Incidentally, that is also the reason why Korea's UHVs include "be the first to discover Printing Press", and why Ethiopia's UHVs include "found Catholicism". It is how these civs perceive themselves.

 

[yurisusuki]

In that case Bizantium could be named ''Roman Empire'' after Western empire collapses..

 

[iOnlySignIn]

In that case Bizantium could be named ''Roman Empire'' after Western empire collapses..

It should. Shouldn't it?

This idea actually has been proposed before, either here for DoC or for RFCE. I just need Leoreth's approval.

 

[Leoreth]

My stance is to use the terminology of modern historiography, which continues (often even ony begins) to call the ERE Byzantine Empire after whatever date you assign to the end of the WRE.

 

[yurisusuki]

My stance is to use the terminology of modern historiography, which continues (often even ony begins) to call the ERE Byzantine Empire after whatever date you assign to the end of the WRE.

And if they are called Roman Empire before a certain date?1453 for example

 

[iOnlySignIn]

My stance is to use the terminology of modern historiography, which continues (often even ony begins) to call the ERE Byzantine Empire after whatever date you assign to the end of the WRE.

How about Ottoman Empire vs. Sublime Ottoman State? Should we use one or both?

Ottoman Sultanate is definitely out, btw. Neither the Ottomans nor their rivals nor modern historians ever used that term. I don't know why this name was in.

Perhaps I will also add Ottoman Beylik as their pre-Empire name and tie their Empire name (which will either be Ottoman Empire or Sublime Ottoman State) with the conquest of Constantinople.

Or we use Sublime Ottoman State as pre-Empire pre-Constantinople name and Ottoman Empire as Empire name. I'm not entirely sure.

Edit: I think I've decided on an appropriate sequence.

Just spawned: Sublime Ottoman State (Osman I Ghazi)

Taken Constantinople and reached isEmpire threshold: Ottoman Empire (Mehmed II Fatih)

Destroyed/Vassalized Arabia, Egypt, Seljuks, with Islam as state religion and reached isEmpire threshold: Ottoman Caliphate (Selim I Yavuz).

 

[iOnlySignIn]

And if they are called Roman Empire before a certain date?1453 for example

I think I would place that date at 565, the death of Justinian, the last Emperor to speak Latin as his first language.

Or at 1055, the end of the Macedonian Dynasty and the Great Schism. Or just place it at Great Schism (founding of Orthodoxy). Or base it on the state religion - if Orthodoxy is the state religion then it's Byzantine Empire instead of Roman Empire.

I think all these dates are plausible. Problem is AI Byzantium's UP still doesn't work and it often does not survive that long.

Edit: I think I will go with Orthodoxy state religion as a requirement for the name Byzantine Empire.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

I think the trigger should simply be if the Romans are alive or not.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ I'm trying to take into account the scenario where the Human Byzantium kills/collapses the Western Roman Empire very quickly (not hard to do since your UU counters their UU).

I think it'd be fun for the Human Byzantium player to acquire the title of "Roman Emperor" this way.

IMO at least until the Justinian Dynasty, Byzantium had been more Roman than Greek.

 

[Wondering Kid]

If someone decides to run the Incas with Republic and have the capital at La Paz, the Civ name should change to Republic of Bolivia.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

If someone decides to run the Incas with Republic and have the capital at La Paz, the Civ name should change to Republic of Bolivia.

Leoreth already added that.