Facebook

[Zelig]

The problem is that you are contacting Facebook servers all the time via the Like button on third-party websites (unless you take special measures against it).

Yes, which one should do.

https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Blocking-mode:-hard-mode

Cookies also a problem, I suggest either whitelisting cookies on Chromium-based browsers, or autodeleting cookies on Firefox.

 

[Commodore]

The liberty to control your own property, for one. The right to privacy, which has been accepted as an American constitutional right. And my info is my property. If someone else is taking and selling it, that's robbery.

You can control your own property though. You agreed to allow your info to be sold when you signed up for those services. Same goes for your ISP when they sell your info. You agreed to it through implied consent. You also surrendered some of your ownership rights to your info when you put your info on their servers. It's kinda similar to how you surrender some of your privacy rights to your landlord when you are living on their property.

 

[Archbob]

I guess I'm just really not that paranoid. When I get marketing calls, I mostly just hang up.

 

[Takhisis]

You can control your own property though. You agreed to allow your info to be sold when you signed up for those services. Same goes for your ISP when they sell your info. You agreed to it through implied consent. You also surrendered some of your ownership rights to your info when you put your info on their servers. It's kinda similar to how you surrender some of your privacy rights to your landlord when you are living on their property.

Well, that's why in other countries we differentiate between assent and consent. Assent is the poor sap just saying yes to unchangeable (usually unfavourable) conditions. Consent means you have negotiating power. And that's what we have ombudsmen and regulatory agencies and legislation for.

 

[Cutlass]

You can control your own property though. You agreed to allow your info to be sold when you signed up for those services. Same goes for your ISP when they sell your info. You agreed to it through implied consent. You also surrendered some of your ownership rights to your info when you put your info on their servers. It's kinda similar to how you surrender some of your privacy rights to your landlord when you are living on their property.

This is a stock attack on private property and liberty commonly used by conservatives: "You cannot protect yourself unless you agree to have no further contact with the outside world".

What conservatives never understand is that it is not a free market if it is punitive.

 

[Esperr]

I use it for advertising. It really wouldn't be feasible to get rid of it now. That being said I thought this was a known thing since FB started in the first place. At this point all of your stuff is somewhere anyway, it seems futile to try and escape it all.

 

[Cheetah]

You can control your own property though. You agreed to allow your info to be sold when you signed up for those services. Same goes for your ISP when they sell your info. You agreed to it through implied consent. You also surrendered some of your ownership rights to your info when you put your info on their servers. It's kinda similar to how you surrender some of your privacy rights to your landlord when you are living on their property.

It used to be that people could indenture themselves to get to America. That was made illegal. Selling or giving away ones privacy will also be made, if not completely illegal, heavily regulated.

I do not "surrender ownership rights to my info". The stupid EULAs of most software and services are most likely illegal and unenforceable in Europe anyway, and come May 25th, I will take action to find out what the different companies have on me, and then I'll tell them to delete anything I don't want them to have.

 

[Commodore]

This is a stock attack on private property and liberty commonly used by conservatives: "You cannot protect yourself unless you agree to have no further contact with the outside world".

What conservatives never understand is that it is not a free market if it is punitive.

You keep framing this as a conservative thing yet it's almost entirely leftists that are engaging in this behavior that you hate so much. Facebook isn't run by conservatives, Google isn't run by conservatives, Amazon isn't run by conservatives, Twitter isn't run by conservatives. Those are all companies that are run by leftists, and those are all companies that are selling your data. But you just keep going through life thinking that it's only conservatives that are out to get you.

The point I'm making is this isn't a left/right thing, it's a business rights versus individual rights thing and our government tends to side with businesses on these matters, even when the leftists are the ones in charge.

And your whole "no further contact with the outside world" statement is nothing more than ridiculous hyperbole. I don't have any social media accounts outside of my YouTube channel, which I haven't been active on in almost a year, and I have no problem communicating with the outside world. You don't need social media to live unless you are in some sort of tech-related career field. There are still millions of people out there just like me and they get along just fine without social media.

I've also yet to hear any solid argument as to how exactly having your information sold harms you in any way. Have you had your identity stolen? If so, can you prove that it was stolen because Facebook sold your info and not the result of some careless security practice on your part?

 

[Cutlass]

You keep framing this as a conservative thing yet it's almost entirely leftists that are engaging in this behavior that you hate so much. Facebook isn't run by conservatives, Google isn't run by conservatives, Amazon isn't run by conservatives, Twitter isn't run by conservatives. Those are all companies that are run by leftists, and those are all companies that are selling your data. But you just keep going through life thinking that it's only conservatives that are out to get you.

The point I'm making is this isn't a left/right thing, it's a business rights versus individual rights thing and our government tends to side with businesses on these matters, even when the leftists are the ones in charge.

And your whole "no further contact with the outside world" statement is nothing more than ridiculous hyperbole. I don't have any social media accounts outside of my YouTube channel, which I haven't been active on in almost a year, and I have no problem communicating with the outside world. You don't need social media to live unless you are in some sort of tech-related career field. There are still millions of people out there just like me and they get along just fine without social media.

I've also yet to hear any solid argument as to how exactly having your information sold harms you in any way. Have you had your identity stolen? If so, can you prove that it was stolen because Facebook sold your info and not the result of some careless security practice on your part?

It's conservatives who allow these business practices. Why? Because ultimately it's an attack on liberty. Build Big Brother one deregulation at a time.

 

[stinkubus]

Commodore with some impressive "No True Conservatives" takes in this thread. LOL at thinking Bezos or Zuckerberg are leftists. LOL at thinking American Democrats are automatically leftists. The overwhelming majority are not. Bezos is literally bringing third world, sweatshop labor conditions back to the US (no leftist supports this), and Facebook has done more for the advancement of right wing causes than the John Birch Society or the Heritage Foundation could ever dream of.

Facebook had a booth at CPAC for God's sake! What sort of leftist rents out space just to pander to a bunch of conservatives at their annual convention?

Maybe you are letting the mask slip a bit and admitting that "conservatism" is really just euphemism for bigotry?

 

[uppi]

And your whole "no further contact with the outside world" statement is nothing more than ridiculous hyperbole. I don't have any social media accounts outside of my YouTube channel, which I haven't been active on in almost a year, and I have no problem communicating with the outside world. You don't need social media to live unless you are in some sort of tech-related career field. There are still millions of people out there just like me and they get along just fine without social media.

It's not hyperbole and you were so kind to provide the example yourself:

You can control your own property though. You agreed to allow your info to be sold when you signed up for those services. Same goes for your ISP when they sell your info. You agreed to it through implied consent. You also surrendered some of your ownership rights to your info when you put your info on their servers. It's kinda similar to how you surrender some of your privacy rights to your landlord when you are living on their property.

If all ISPs available in your area require consent to them selling your information, what choice do you have other than cutting yourself off from the outside world?

 

[Takhisis]

Facebook isn't run by conservatives, Google isn't run by conservatives, Amazon isn't run by conservatives, Twitter isn't run by conservatives. Those are all companies that are run by leftists, and those are all companies that are selling your data. But you just keep going through life thinking that it's only conservatives that are out to get you.

While there are many leftist people who are complete scumbags, the people you mention are called ‘leftists’ only in the U.S. of A., and outside that country they'd be classified as centre-right or classical rightwing.

 

[Zelig]

You can control your own property though. You agreed to allow your info to be sold when you signed up for those services. Same goes for your ISP when they sell your info. You agreed to it through implied consent. You also surrendered some of your ownership rights to your info when you put your info on their servers. It's kinda similar to how you surrender some of your privacy rights to your landlord when you are living on their property.

There's legal precedent that regular people don't have the capacity for informed consent with the power imbalance between them and Facebook.

 

[Commodore]

If all ISPs available in your area require consent to them selling your information, what choice do you have other than cutting yourself off from the outside world?

You don't need your own personal internet connection to connect to the outside world. Even in the US, there are plenty of public internet options available, they just require you leaving your own home to use them.

It's conservatives who allow these business practices. Why? Because ultimately it's an attack on liberty. Build Big Brother one deregulation at a time.

And leftists are taking advantage of it. My point being, again, that this isn't a left/right issue as the scummier elements on both sides are taking advantage of it.

Bezos is literally bringing third world, sweatshop labor conditions back to the US (no leftist supports this),

Politically, he backs causes that are seen as leftist causes in the US. So in the context of US politics, he is a leftist. It doesn't matter that he doesn't actually practice what he preaches, all that matters is who he votes for, and he doesn't vote for Republicans. At least, he claims he doesn't.

While there are many leftist people who are complete scumbags, the people you mention are called ‘leftists’ only in the U.S. of A., and outside that country they'd be classified as centre-right or classical rightwing.

Of course, but we are discussing this in the context of US politics.

There's legal precedent that regular people don't have the capacity for informed consent with the power imbalance between them and Facebook

Then the people are well within their rights to take Facebook and other social media companies to court over this and let a judge decide if they need to change their terms of service or not.

EDIT: I'm also still waiting for someone to explain exactly how their liberty is being threatened by social media selling your info to advertisers? And I don't want to hear anything lame and vague like "I don't have control over my data" either. I want tangible, verifiable examples of exactly how you, personally, are somehow more restricted in what you can do or say than you were before Facebook got their hands on your data.

 

[Zelig]

Then the people are well within their rights to take Facebook and other social media companies to court over this and let a judge decide if they need to change their terms of service or not.

That's not what courts decide - they simply judge that Facebook's ToS aren't necessarily enforceable (and are specifically unenforceable for the terms in question.) Facebook is free to continue using its unenforceable ToS. This has already happened at the Supreme Court level.

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2017/06/supreme-court-rules-facebook-cant-contract-b-c-privacy-law/

"[...] the unequal bargaining power between consumers and companies such as Facebook [...] meant that the clause should not be enforced [...]"

"The decision represents a clear recognition that courts should not be quick to allow companies to contract out of important rights by ousting local laws through forum selection clauses. More broadly, the terms found within non-negotiated take-it-or-leave it clickwrap contracts should not always be enforced by the courts, particularly where important rights or remedies might be lost by doing so."

 

[Takhisis]

Of course, but we are discussing this in the context of US politics.

Not quite, seeing as Cambridge Analytica had a hand (that we know of) in the Brexit affair, and who knows in what else.

Then the people are well within their rights to take Facebook and other social media companies to court over this and let a judge decide if they need to change their terms of service or not.

Class-action lawsuit it is, then.

 

[Hehehe]

Websites certainly don't have your MAC address.

Active fingerprinting assumes the client will tolerate some degree of invasive querying. The most active method is installation of executable code directly on the client machine. Such code may have access to attributes not typically available by other means, such as the MAC address, or other unique serial numbers assigned to the machine hardware. Such data is useful for fingerprinting by programs that employ digital rights management.

IP address and browser fingerprint aren't particular relevant if you don't contact Facebook servers except for when accessing facebook.com.

What? Those are one of the best ways to track users across different platforms

Twitter/youtube/random other facebook competitors certainly don't share your phone number with facebook.

You seem to be conflating bitter rivals (Facebook and Google), and ascribing magical abilities to website operators.

They both sell data to third parties (data brokers)

An information broker or data broker collects information about individuals from public records and private sources including census and change of address records, motor vehicle and driving records, user-contributed material to social networking sites such as Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn,[1] media and court reports, voter registration lists, consumer purchase histories, most-wanted lists and terrorist watch lists, bank card transaction records, health care authorities, and web browsing histories.[2]

The data are aggregated to create individual profiles, often made up of thousands of individual pieces of information such as a person's age, race, gender, height, weight, marital status, religious affiliation, political affiliation, occupation, household income, net worth, home ownership status, investment habits, product preferences and health-related interests. Brokers then sell the profiles to other organizations that use them mainly to target advertising and marketing towards specific groups, to verify a person's identity including for purposes of fraud detection, and to sell to individuals and organizations so they can research people for various reasons.[3] Data brokers also often sell the profiles to government agencies, such as the FBI, thus allowing law enforcement agencies to circumvent laws that protect privacy.[4]

 

[Zelig]

I'm not going to bother reading your wiki links, because I'm technically competent.

Websites cannot see your MAC address. There's no mechanism for that to happen. "Your" MAC address isn't even a specific thing from the website's point of view - every piece of networking gear between your PC and google.com has a MAC address. From my home PC to google.ca there are 8 hops, all of which have their own MAC address. None of which either I, nor Google, can see.

If I only connect to facebook via facebook.com, IP address (which isn't a unique identifier) and browser fingerprint (which isn't going to be the same between multiple platforms) are worthless. Of course I'm the same user via multiple platforms, because I've logged into the same account. That doesn't give them any additional information other than "I have multiple platforms that I log in from".

Data brokers aren't particularly relevant either. Ad companies are in the business of selling targeted ads. Selling their data directly compromises the value of their ads. And none of those companies sell information, you're adding words that aren't even present in the text you're quoting. It's all publicly scrapable information.

 

[Samson]

browser fingerprint (which isn't going to be the same between multiple platforms) are worthless

I am not really technically competent, but why would browser fingerprint be different between platforms? My browser fingerprint is below, it is unique according to amiunique.org and panopticlick.eff.org. Surely this means I could be tracked across multiple platforms?

Spoiler My browser fingerprint :

My fingerprint
[removed for security reasons]

 

[Zelig]

Well that's all going to be different on a different platform. You're not going to be using a GeForce GT 640 at 3440x1440 on your Android phone.

edit: I think we're probably talking about different things with "platforms" - I've been using it in reference to my different platforms. In terms of different services, it still doesn't particularly matter - facebook doesn't share its record of browser fingerprints with Google, and vice versa.