Facing Mortality

[Farm Boy]

Is he?

 

[El_Machinae]

Therein lies war.

Lebensraum

We've seen it before. Other people must die so that there can be room for my kids. It's not a mindset I appreciate. There's a scary future we're trucking towards, economic and environmental catastrophe. It's probably 99% of the reason I'm so loud on my environmentalism.

Another issue I have with immortality is that the human mind tends to solidify in adulthood and fiercely resists all contrary beliefs. Like Planck's saying that science progresses when old opponents of new ideas die and are replaced by younger people who grew up with it, social values only really change, with very few exceptions, when the old opponents of new values die and are replaced by young people who grew up with them.

Absolutely an issue. I don't like your solution to the issue.

And that's not to mention the stranglehold on power and wealth someone could have if they were born rich and have spent centuries amassing more wealth and power.

Already an issue, witness the massive transfer of wealth due to inheritance. It already happens at the family level, and absolutely requires a solution already.

99,000 poorer people dying every day to kill the top 1%, for an issue that already exists?

Your solution to the issue is lacking.

I also want to say, this is not "letting people die." As there is no immortality now, we don't get to choose to live forever or help others to do so. "Letting people die" means having the power to save someone and deliberately not using it, and we don't have that power.

It is, because it is observing a cause of death and then insisting upon not intervening. If you let a friend buy healthcare for their Boomer parents, you're already saying it's okay to intervene and delay their death. I'm merely recognizing that we do this already, and saying that 'helping people not die' is morally worthy.

It's not like I think I can snap my fingers and create immortality. My original post was to battle death. Preventing malaria. Intervening in Alzheimer's. Curing a kid's cancer.

The only difference is that I think that this battle is never over. After we prevent malaria in a population, I think it's okay to then treat the childhood cancers, and (eventually) treat those same childrens' Alzheimer's.

I'm looking at the end game. Find a cause of death, then solve a cause of death. It's a battle worth fighting.

You're worried about a far future populated by static methuselahs. Sure. It's concerning. But there are more obvious problems that are vastly more certain right now. And those problems are aggravated more by those buying fancy shoes than by those reading articles on Parkinson's.

 

[Kyriakos]

So if it was shown to be impossible to have immortals without the world turning hellish you would stop wanting your parents to be immortal, right?
Right.
Btw, you want yourself to be immortal too, i suppose. How is that noble in your view? Or is it a different case.

 

[El_Machinae]

If the future is going to be more hellish because people are living longer, then can you please help me create a less hellish future? Or does your hedonism get a pass?

The future is a spread of possibilities. Individual actions make things worse or better.

@El_Machinae Your family will die cause they are human, not because someone took stuff from you. And i am not sure how you get to be the one accusing others where they spend money on; at least no one here said you can't spend yours on whatever. If you are angry that your own money aren't enough to fund re search with the noble end to turn your parents immortal then asking others to spend too is rather strange.

Absolutely. I don't get angry that other people destroy the environment rather than funding medical research. There are many worthy causes that we'll erode the environment for, and I'm just trying to build synergy with my efforts. My efforts regarding polio or Alzheimer's combine with yours, to our mutual benefit. And as soon as you seek medical treatment for yourself or your loved ones, you've implicitly agreed that you value my efforts. After that, it's more a question of whether you've helped, free rode, or hindered.

My frustration is that the hedonists get a pass much larger than the optimists. I'm 'wasting money'. But Mr. Vacation isn't derided for actively making every fundamental problem worse for his own pleasure. My footprint is (maybe) twice that of someone who just binges Netflix all day, and both of our footprints are unsustainable. It's 1/10th the footprint of Mr. Vacation. Netflix binger and Mr. Vacation aren't fighting the wealth imbalance, their new shoes don't improve the sustainability of our political system.

My family will die, because society didn't fight the battle I wanted fought. Yeah, that'll happen. But 'the reason' why people won't fight is that they claim to prefer a future where my family dies. And then I can consider their own spending (or the spending they don't resent), because nearly all of the problems they're worried about are happening regardless and are aggravated by the issues that I am highlighting.

 

[Kyriakos]

Sure, yet most people barely get by as it is, and/or need escapism to survive. All people do stuff for their own reasons and only very few cases are arguably monsters.

 

[Farm Boy]

Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

 

[El_Machinae]

Sure, yet most people barely get by as it is, and/or need escapism to survive. All people do stuff for their own reasons and only very few cases are arguably monsters.

Wait, so people aren't monsters if they do things merely to survive, even if it makes the future worse?

I happen to agree. Expecting people to die isn't a solution. At least, not an acceptable one. If the future is at risk of being worse, there are better targets than those trying to save lives.

 

[Kyriakos]

Wait, so people aren't monsters if they do things merely to survive, even if it makes the future worse?

I happen to agree. Expecting people to die isn't a solution. At least, not an acceptable one. If the future is at risk of being worse, there are better targets than those trying to save lives.

Well, i hope this doesnt mean you identify all those who dont help you as monsters.

 

[Lexicus]

El_Mach, if you're concerned about involuntary death, one solution that will work right here and now without any technical innovation or investment is to just stop reproducing. Almost every single birth creates the inevitability of an involuntary death at some point down the road.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, i hope this doesnt mean you identify all those who dont help you as monsters.

Of course not.
My criticism is that "100,000 must die every day" is just not a valid or acceptable solution to whatever problem you're describing. And that the person trying to save lives isn't the one who's aggravating the issue that's being described.

 

[Kyriakos]

Currently there are a great many things which have no cure and can end life (or at least quality of life; and also lead to suicide) even of a child or teen. Eg loss of limbs, various diseases, and also environment being deadly (imagine being born in gaza).
It will be nice when people can live for a few hundred years. It isnt imo really what deserves much popular focus the way things currently are.

 

[El_Machinae]

Then what does? I'd probably agree, even, with most people's lists. As I said to AmazonQueen's original concern, I'm on her side. The quest is to stop death. If environmental destruction or future wars are a risk to death, then they're also on the list.

Why ask me to reprioritize, though? You've literally got people posting in other threads about the long-distance vacations. Why are my efforts the lower-hanging fruits when asking people to rethink their priorities.

 

[Kyriakos]

Then what does? I'd probably agree, even, with most people's lists. As I said to AmazonQueen's original concern, I'm on her side. The quest is to stop death. If environmental destruction or future wars are a risk to death, then they're also on the list.

Why ask me to reprioritize, though? You've literally got people posting in other threads about the long-distance vacations. Why are my efforts the lower-hanging fruits when asking people to rethink their priorities.

Well, would a maimed person want to live for centuries, or get his limb back even for a few decades of lifespan?
Living forever may sound cool, but (oxymoron pending) seems shortsighted the way things are

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Why ask me to reprioritize, though? You've literally got people posting in other threads about the long-distance vacations.

Because your ideas are ideas, my vacation is my life. This is a generally friendly debate space where people's world views are up for debate. The trade off that makes this work is that my trip to Hawaii kind of isn't a debate topic even if it is a conversation topic. It's way more pleasant this way.

You have an absolutely valid point on personal accountability, I'm just answering the question you posed at face value. It's not that @Kyriakos doesn't think my vacation was wasteful and harming the environment, he just knows picking on me over it will piss me off in a way that talking about your concepts won't piss you off.

Not to put words in @Kyriakos's mouth or misrepresent him. I'm just rolling with the exchange to make an example.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, tbh, instead of going to hawaii you could send the money to me. Surely i am more important than a trip.
That said, time we all realise that humanity isnt allied much. In fact one barely has things in common (in the long run) with his own self.
I recall myself at 13. I was constantly thinking and had various theories. I am pretty sure my 13year old self and me now wouldnt get along, despite a shared past.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Even if a person, say me, is not offended by being called out for contributing to global warming by flying on a jet for pleasure, it sure makes me less likely to talk to you in the future to have it called out. I don't even have to get mad to feel uncomfortable sharing my lived experiences even though personal exchanges are part of the charm of CFC OT. So it shouldn't be surprising that people don't typically poop on each other over personal stuff.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well, tbh, instead of going to hawaii you could send the money to me. Surely i am more important than a trip.
That said, time we all realise that humanity isnt allied much. In fact one barely has things in common (in the long run) with his own self.
I recall myself at 13. I was constantly thinking and had various theories. I am pretty sure my 13year old self and me now wouldnt get along, despite a shared past.

For the record - because now I am actually uncomfortable - the trip was entirely paid for by my parents who got the money from my grandmother after her death. It wasn't my money to give and refusing it would have hurt feelings. My mother planned the whole thing out and wanted to treat all of her children and their partners with a big family outing.

Edit:
Between this and being mic-checked for bringing up a small paycut in the rants thread because - how dare I complain, I've got a good job - I don't know what people want. It's only been a few years since getting my debit declined while buying groceries and I'm still under a mountain of student loans but I can't talk about things either good or bad when it comes to money because people think I'm rich and wasteful I guess? I don't know.

Edit 2: I flipping walk to work. I moved so that I could do that. That alone offsets a huge amount of my carbon footprint.

And now I'm all defensive lol

 

[Kyriakos]

(i was joking, anyway. Though feel free to send money if guilt visits) ^_^

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I know

Watch @el mac's comment have nothing to do with me hahaha. Sometimes my ego really takes the driver seat and I get all worked up.

Spoiler :

 

[Mouthwash]

death is the ultimate comfort. the warm embrace. death is an egalitarian utopia. death is perfect. death is always with you. you begin to decay the day you're born. no matter how rich or how powerful, how careful or reckless, we exhibit little control over death. everyone I ever hated or disliked will soon be dead, cosmically speaking. no matter how much of a failure you are, death doesn't judge at all. she doesn't spare you for any mortal logic, she adheres only to her own. death gets everyone who has ever lived, and unites us. we're all just hanging out in the waiting room, chatting, enjoying our break, before the voyage begins. death is not at all the antithesis of life life is death. without death, life wouldn't mean anything. I am utterly grateful for death. it's truly the best we have, and I mean that as sincerely as humanly possible.

This is way beyond my ability to comprehend. I can only say that your cognitive dissonance is complete, and that focusing on the good aspects of death (cessation of suffering, toil, equality of outcome, etc) is a way of ignoring the total annihilation that atheists believe in.

I will not resist death, but only because I believe God didn't mean us to.

your utopia is my nightmare. a world without death is as horrible as a world without suffering. it's a world I don't want any part in.

What about a post-scarcity world? What about one ruled by a superintelligent, benevolent AI? That might include things like this?

what is defying death, ultimately? you don't really do it for other people mostly, do you? it's the ultimate selfish behavior.

Having kids as a 'lifestyle choice' really is selfish. Do it because you think it's God's (or Gnon's) plan. They'll be alright.