Faerun

[FramedArchitect]

After re-posting Faerun on Steam, I realized there was still a surprising amount of interest in this mod. So, I've decided to bite the bullet and update the mod for BNW expansion.

As with the GnK update, I will be adding some new content, but the focus will be on new gameplay elements. I will be focusing on the following components:

Religion

• All Pantheons (up to 15) will be founded on Turn 1.
• Minor civs initially control Cult Centers (Holy Cities)
• Rewards for religious diversity in cities and empire, (via Alignment Beliefs)
• Advantages unlocked via Alignment: bldgs./units/wonders/spies/etc.
• Spread mainly via hero quests/pilgrimages to Cult Centers not units or “pressure”

Spoiler :

Alignment

• Replaces Ideologies
• Can adopt upon completing the first Hero Pilgrimage to a Cult Center
• After adopting, Divine Favor (Faith) feeds into to Weave (culture) pool each turn
• Most Civs limited to two choices, not three (replay value, civ flavor)
• Alignment beliefs enhance faith/influence/happiness/diplomacy (empire focused)
• Alignment has large effect on diplomatic relationships
• Opens up new heroes/unique heroes

Spoiler :

Hero Quests

• Initiated by Heroes on Pilgrimages to Cult Centers (holy cities)
• On a timer, so choice of Pilgrimage site is important
• Various up-front “tithes” (gold/weave/must declare war)
• Various rewards (hero xp, hero Items, civ benefits (expansion charters/tech)
• A few fetch and kill type quests are completed on a timer (human only)
• Various types depending on hero class, civ alignment, pantheon of CS, etc.

Victory Conditions

• Spellplague (science): begins the worldwide spell plague event (victory) and opens new techs for “after game play”
• Religious(faith/war): Control all holy cities (through CS allies or conquest), accumulate X Divine Favor (based on Gamespeed/Difficulty)
• Magical(culture/faith): Complete 5 policy branch (4 magical, 1 Alignment)
• Diplomatic (war/econ) : Win the council of Sages (CS)
• New victory screen

Content

• Racial Units (ethnic diversity skins) for some base units (via CS Ally hireables)
• Racial Buildings (unlocked by racial diversity)
• An additional UU, UB or UI for some Civilizations
• Several improvements, 2 resources
• 2 global quests
• 3 Pantheons (religions)
• 48 Alignment beliefs (policies)
• A few Wonders

I expect to have v.1 with above components posted here by early January and a more polished version for Steam by mid-January. As always, release of better fantasy mods will obsolete this mod.

While I love the comments and criticism offered, Faerun has grown so large that I could use help from contributors, particularly those who are interested in fantasy, DnD, etc. More specifically, I could use help with text updates and expansion, quest stories, UI elements, and play testing/database changes. If you would like to contribute to Faerun, add me as a Steam contact (FramedArchitecture), and we can discuss details.

 

[BainIthron]

That's good news. I'll definitely look forward to that new version. Thanks again FramedArtchitecture!

 

[JurGor]

As always, release of better fantasy mods will obsolete this mod.

Define better? There's plenty of flavour and uniqueness in your mod to make it stand out on it's own against any future fantasy mod. You've got an interesting, well documented IP to build on.

Your mod does not merely stand out because it is there for CIV V and in a playable state. There's a lot more to it than that.

Thank you for developing it further and updating it for BNW. The components you announced look very promising. This is a mod that will stand the Test of Time.

 

[FramedArchitect]

Small update, mostly the UI elements to better display the new religious system. Because religious diversity is an important aspect to consider when making Hero Pilgrimages, and because Civs no longer found "religions" I just replaced the My Religion page.

I reworked the City State Gift system to better integrate with the new religious system. Now the kind of gift you can give is based on the alignment of the CS. This opens up new kinds of strategy in earning CS loyalty, and reduces "buy victory" outcomes. I wrote a script to allow AI to use this system, so they should remain competitive. Also removed the "Large Gift" option, which will only be available with Hero Pilgrimages.

 

[coppergold]

Hi FA

Thank you for making the Faerun mod for civ5. I enjoyed your mod immersely and hope that BNW version will be release soon.

However, one thing that nagged at me in the entire mod is Simbul fraction is unable to choose Mystra as her deity. I believe you must have a lot to consider (balance issue, etc) and very experienced in the Faerun storyline, hopefully you will one day add Mystra as Neutral deity or Simbul (although she is chaotic neutral, but she done a lot of good deeds in Mystra's name) as good fraction.

Sincerely,

Coppergold

 

[FramedArchitect]

one thing that nagged at me in the entire mod is Simbul fraction is unable to choose Mystra as her deity...

I completely agree... the religion system in the GnK version is not good. It provided few choices for players and didn't capture the feel of Faerun -- a world characterized by religious tolerance, not sectarianism.

The new BNW religion system tries to correct those failings. First, all Pantheons (up to 15) are on the map at the beginning of the game, and the Cult Centers (holy cities) are controlled by City States. Faerun will now be filled with deities. Second, Pantheons are spread to your cities by sending your Hero on pilgrimages to Cult Centers; you choose exactly which Pantheons you want in your Kingdom (and you can have as many as you have population).

Religion is also now tied to a civilization's Alignment (ideology), which you choose. New religious benefits open up as you choose Alignment beliefs. At least one belief in each Alignment grants your civilization benefits for each type of follower in your Kingdom, even if those followers are not the same alignment as your civ.

To your example, if the Cult of Mystra is on the map then you can send your Hero to the Cult Center and one of your people will become a follower of Mystra. If you choose Good Alignment, then you will be also able to build a Mystra Cleric and Temple. If you want Mystra to be the state "religion" keep sending your heroes to the Mystra cult center. If you want religious diversity, send your heroes to various cult centers.

 

[orlanth]

Wow these new features look awesome I'm glad this mod is becoming more widely recognized with all the game site coverage. I have so far resisted buying BNW but now have a good excuse to do once this new mod version comes out

 

[Ahriman]

FA, it is fantastic that you are doing an update: there is so much great potential with this great mod, just a bit of polishing will make it truly shine.

I'll try the latest versions, and look forward to playtesting the BNW version and providing feedback.

Can I request that in adddition to the new features, you also make sure that the mod can provide a competitive AI? When I played in past, the AI players seemed to struggle with the game economy and did not develop very well - perhaps in part because they didn't know how to focus on techs that fit the terrain/resources near them. With new mechanics like the hero pilgrimages it will be particularly important for the AI players to be able to spread religions around effectively.

 

[Ianwill93]

Looking forward to this! This is my favorite Mod!!!

 

[Ahriman]

Tried out v16 for a bit.
The things that really stand out to me are that gold purchase costs are really really high. A warrior costs 34 production to build - or 180 gold. To buy even a single tile for a city costs 100 gold.
In my view this means the fundamental economy of the game is off: gold is so horribly inefficient at doing anything as to be almost useless. Only food and production are worth accumulating.

Cities seem to grow very fast up to ~size 5, but extremely slowly after that. Have the food amounts for growth been changed? This also makes the economy odd.

There would be more interesting faction variation if some of the UUs had some interesting/unique promotion that stayed with them when upgraded. Elven archers could have indirect fire (so they still work well in forests). Orcish raiders could have extra gold from pillaging stay with them. etc.

Another issue: on the Faerun map, many resources are placed on marsh tiles in a lot of places, but the marsh clearance requires a really really high tech, which blocks those resources from being accessed. Perhaps it should be possible to build the plantation on the marsh/resource tile even if the marsh can't be cleared?

 

[PawelS]

After playing the mod a bit more, I came to the conclusion that the biggest issue for me is the Charter mechanic. While I really liked it at first, as it's a good way to limit expansion and preserve some wilderness from getting settled for a long time, at the same time it rewards conquest (as conquering cities of other civs gives you extra Charters), so it can cause snowballing - I observed this effect with some AI players in the games I played.

I think a better solution would be not to give extra Charters for conquest, and apply additional unhappiness for cities that you own above the number of available Charters (but the number of Charters from tech can be increased somewhat to allow empires larger than a few cities). But of course it's only my point of view, and (judging from past discussions I was involved it) I think the majority of Civ players disagree with me, and prefer to have the possibility of snowballing and world conquest.

 

[Ahriman]

You observed AI players snowballing? I usually think that is a good thing: player challenge is enhanced when other AI civs can eat up their weaker neighbors.
But I haven't really been observing that: playing on Immortal difficulty, the AI doesn't seem strong enough to be able to conquer its neighbors. It has great difficulty fielding the terrain strategic resource units (it can field wizards, since spell books only require a building), and the ranged attack units (especially the wizards) are so powerful that warfare favors the defender a lot.

I'm still undecided on charters, but I think in general there needs to be some AI code to help them out, particularly in tech selection.

I think another issue is: it's easy to get timber for marksmen, or spellbooks for specialist mages, whereas iron for tougher melee units is much more rare (or are out in the middle of deserts and aren't going to be near cities). This pushes the balance further in favor of ranged units.

Another way to potentially balance snowballing is with balancing coalitions; if people gang up on anyone getting ahead. This doesn't seem to be happening, in part because people don't seem to hate me much for warmongering: as orcs I have taken a city from Waterdeep (who I attacked) and both of Baldur's Gate's cities, and I founded an evil religion, and I'm still neutral or friendly with almost everyone. The good civs should be gunning for me.
*edit* Ah never mind, 6 civs all declared war on me at once.

 

[PawelS]

Yes, I've seen AI players eating their neighbors (Immortal difficulty as well; I played on Marathon speed, so perhaps the AI was conquering more because it had more time to do so). For me the problem is that I think conquest should be an alternative to expansion. So if you get an extra charter, you can either build a settler and found a new city, or conquer a city from your neighbor - if you conquer more cities than your charters allow, you should get extra unhappiness or some other penalty. This will create a more "stable environment", where several civs can grow at a similar level for a long time. Large scale conquest should only be allowed near the end of the game, to make it possible to win a domination victory.

The current situation favors only conquest, as it's the only way to have more than a few cities. As for challenge from the AI, I prefer when more AI civs are at a similar level as the player, not only one or two, which usually happens when snowballing is allowed. So it shouldn't be a race, where the one who conquers land faster wins - such style of play is not enjoyable for me.

The happiness system is the only thing that limits it somewhat, although it's similar as in the unmodded game, so it limits the total population rather than number of cities - if you artificially prevent your cities from growing, you will be able to have more of them (it's the so-called "going wide"). The good thing is that you will lose gold from doing so, due to the way Governor Mansions work. But it doesn't completely fix the situation, as when you have a large number of cities, you will usually have a large number of luxuries, which helps you maintain positive happiness.

As for tech selection, you're right. I was able to get charter techs much earlier than the AI. The same applies to other crucial techs, like the ones that allow religions (although it only matters in games with a large number of players).

 

[Ahriman]

Interesting proposal. I think you're right that there is an issue here. Doing it one for one I think is problematic: if settling a new city and conquering a city both take a charter, then I'm going to be biased towards settling cities, as conquered cities are puppets, and courthouses are buried deep in the tech tree.
Another option would be: let cities be conquered and puppeted without using charters, possibly introduce some larger penalties for puppet cities on production/weave/faith/science, and then have the courthouse require the charter. Then, I can take the cities, but they don't do much for my economy without a charter.

I don't find happiness to be limiting my population, I find that the food requirements to grow above size 6 or so are so punitive as to make this only binding constraint on city size.

As for "large number of players": for me at least the appeal of the mod is on playing on the Faerun world map scenarios. I think I'd have much less fun playing on random maps. I suspect other players might feel this way too, and I'd argue that the scenario maps should be the primary consideration for design. [And this in part is what influences my comments on resource distribution and the like).

Another thing: it feels odd that there are few horse units and no light cavalry. The explorer is still perhaps too useful (and it retains a combat role as a make hunter). It feels like there should be a light cavalry unit with less mobility but higher strength than the explorer, but that comes before knights. This might help to reduce the ranged dominance.

 

[FramedArchitect]

Cities seem to grow very fast up to ~size 5, but extremely slowly after that. Have the food amounts for growth been changed? This also makes the economy odd.
...
Another issue: ... Perhaps it should be possible to build the plantation on the marsh/resource tile even if the marsh can't be cleared?

I changed the growth curve slightly, so now 6 pop will be target for average early game city, and approaches limit less steeply. I think larger cities will be possible in good locations.

Economy is totally different with BNW, and creating and protecting trade routes is perfect for Faerun story; it also eases tech burden as trade is also fueled by Alignment choices. I have slightly reduced buyout ratios, but some buildings and units require more to maintain. In addition, gold is less useful for CS ally buyouts, which can now require other yields like population, culture or faith.

On expansion, some alignment policies and a few hero quests will grant settlers or charters. Evil alignment is best for expansionist aims. So there are more paths to building an empire if that is your aim.

To the last, I made the first major edit to terrains in years, smoothing out many oddities and taking into consideration random maps. Your issue was solved with:

UPDATE BuildFeatures  SET PrereqTech = 'TECH_F_LABOR', Remove = 0 WHERE FeatureType = 'FEATURE_MARSH' AND BuildType = 'BUILD_PLANTATION';

 

[Ahriman]

I think larger cities will be possible in good locations.

Be careful to think about not just "possible" but also "desirable": that is, it must be worthwhile investing the food in growing that city to the next size. If it takes 1,000 food to grow to another citizen and that citizen gives 2 production and 1 science per turn for 200 turns, then I probably could have done better by not bothering to collect the 1,000 food, and work mine tiles instead of farm tiles, and have another 1,000 production upfront.

Limiting food also makes happiness much less important.
If you want to control growth, can I suggest doing it through happiness, rather than through food? Doing it through food pushes you even more into a mass-conquest strategy as the only decent root. In my view there should be balances and tradeoffs between "wide" strategies with many small cities and "tall" strategies with few large cities, but this is only feasible if tall is actually possible.

Another possibility would be to increase the value of some food/growth buildings, so that you can get large cities, but only by infesting in appropriate infrastructure.

Economy is totally different with BNW

Great, I look forward to trying it. I'll provide more feedback then.
But the buyout ratios need to be at least as low as in vanilla to make gold worth using. Otherwise I am never going to build a village, I will always build farms or mines or mills instead.

Thanks again for continuing to support and expand this mod.

 

[FramedArchitect]

I've finished off the lua required to handle Hero quests (800+ lines of code... a new record for me!). The system is pretty versatile, and new quests can be added solely through updates to the database, the same way you would add a new civ or building (except you don't need any graphics!). I think this might allow players to add their own quests if they feel mine are lacking.

Spoiler :

Hero quests are available upon making a pilgrimage to Cult Centers and are on a timer of about 20 turns. Though they aren't necessary to progress through the game, they are the only way religions will spread so are an integrated part of the new alignment and religion system. The AI will make hero quests especially to Cult centers that share their alignment.

 

[Ahriman]

This sounds very interesting. The one concern I have is that the maps (especially the scenario maps) are very large. And so it could be extremely difficult to get your hero to a cult center if they have to walk there manually - and require many different open border treaties, and a lot of pathfinding micromanagement to manage.
It also requires taking a key military unit away from the front lines.

These seem to make me worry that they could be difficult to accomplish on the Faerun scenario maps, and that they might be difficult for the AI to accomplish at all, and so religions might not spread very well, which would be a shame.

 

[Slywyn]

I've been trying to get this mod to work for a long time, but I've been having a lot of trouble with it and none of the solutions I've been suggested have helped.

I load the mod(either through steam or manually downloaded, it doesn't matter), and it says "Configuring Game Files" for maybe a minute or two, makes a clicking sound like the mod was accepted, but continues to "Configure Game Files" before kicking me back to the main menu without having done anything.

Deleting cache doesn't fix it.
Unsubscribing/subscribing doesn't fix it.
Manually installing the mod over normally installing doesn't fix it.
Trying again and again doesn't fix it.

A solution would be very helpful. I've tried asking on the Steam Workshop but nothing's been suggested there.

 

[PawelS]

Do other mods work for you?