Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

The AI can't deal with the demons. Can YOU ?

Since you're not remarking about how they tore you to shreds, I'm guessing you're relatively capable of handling them

The problem here, is not necessarily that the demons are too hard (maybe they are) but that the AI can't deal with them. Which is a problem with the AI in general being clueless as to all kinds of battle tactics, management of forces, sanctifying terrain, and preparing for the future, etc.

Well, I think that's all fine and good, but it's easier said than done. It would certainly be helpful if the non-AV civs realized that they need to be sanctifying the hell terrain that is ruining their yields, spawning demons, and preventing their own units from moving around their territory. It doesn't, though, take care of that combat 5 Beast of Agares that just razed their capital. I'd also note that the AI seems to handle other AI invasions (which are more dangerous (or should be) insofar as they are organized and contain a mixed stack of death) much better than it does the demons.

On the other hand, perhaps some of it is just that quite a few civs fall hopelessly behind in tech by the midgame, making them easy prey for the demons.
 
I saw the AI elohim stopping it quite recently, by sealing the well.
Is the sealing a random event?

The well itself also gives mana dna nice tile yields, as well as being explorable. This draws people to it in general. Sometimes it's in a remote part of the world, and that's just how it goes. but often, it will be in the territory of a civ. As long as that civ isn't AV, the well isn't really a problem
I've seen a great many civilizations killed by Azers or Diseased Corpses or whatever that burst forth from the Well when some stupid Scout goes exploring it. I'm not sure that it being explorable is lessening its game ruining potential.
 
I'm thinking maybe the malakim could do with a special "Desert Mine" improvement. Replacing the normal mine, which can only be built in deserts. Thusly, they'd be unable to make normal mines, and therefore have no advantage in not scorching plains hills.

In general, I find it strange that they're not encouraged to turn every possible tile into desert. Vehem mentions synergy between floodplains and plains hills. The answer, to me, seems to be to cut plains mining out entirely

It's been pointed out elsewhere, bedouin camp/gathering/whatever yields are incredibly low now, since their final level was just plain removed. I'd opt to put back the final level, but just tweak the yields down a bit. The specific thing mentioned was the 3 food, as a problem.
 
In general, I find it strange that they're not encouraged to turn every possible tile into desert.
I find it strange that you find that strange.

Just because they can thrive in a desert doesn't mean they want to. Would you?

We're talking "story" here (not gameplay). But, you're trying to justify gameplay decisions in order to improve what you find strange in the story. (Or am I misunderstanding you? Is it the gameplay you find strange?)

Vehem mentions synergy between floodplains and plains hills. The answer, to me, seems to be to cut plains mining out entirely.

It's been pointed out elsewhere, bedouin camp/gathering/whatever yields are incredibly low now, since their final level was just plain removed. I'd opt to put back the final level, but just tweak the yields down a bit. The specific thing mentioned was the 3 food, as a problem.

Gameplay I agree. I'm in my 2nd Malakim game in a row and I find they grow VERY slowly. So much so that I found my "normal" cities over in nearby grassland were to be preferred. And, I can't mollify myself by saying that when all my sits are maxed out that they are better, because they're not.

Honestly, it's the 0 food at start that's the killer.

How about add 1 food to the initial level, and add the final level back but remove the 3rd food?
 
Honestly, it's the 0 food at start that's the killer.

How about add 1 food to the initial level, and add the final level back but remove the 3rd food?

Although that's moving more toward changing them into the same as cottages.

I like the idea that they grow in benefit, but it's food not commerce they help.

The 3rd food wouldn't be "broken" if you didn't also get commerce. What if the sit gives NO commerce at all, on any of the levels? Or, at most, 1 commerce flat rate? The benefit would be the 1-2 hammers, plus the fact that when you get to the 3 food level you start to be able to support specialists or desert cottages. Heck, you could add a 4 food level, possibly.
 
Bradeline's well spreads hell terrain according to the rules that all hell terrain works on. Ie, It's only really going to cause spreading if it's in the territory of an AV civ. Otherwise, you need AC 25 for it to start spreading to unowned land, 50 for evil, 75 for neutral, etc.

If you want to stop it, go good, and build a city near it. That permanantly stops it from spreading around you. Also, the elohim have a special event on the well, to permanantly seal it. It turns it into spirit mana, and removes the hell terrain from it.

Personally, I think it would be much better if Bradeline's Well did not increase its plot counter until explored. I also can't think of any reason in the lore why a Well of Creation would be particularly evil unless and until someone messed with it. These Wells are passageways that the souls of the dead take to find their rest in the next life. True, the Well of Shadows was a rather creepy place before Auric destroyed the widdershins curse, but it wasn't particularly evil, that curse may not have been naturally occurring anyway (I suspect the involvement of a certain Once Elf Necromancer with allegiance to Laroth, but probably shouldn't be revealing this from the Ashes of Brigdarrow so I'll stop now), and that well lead straight to a part of the netherworld rules by Laroth. Nemora was probably the greatest paradise on Erebus until Tebryn closed off its well, thus forming the Dead Lands. It might even be appropriate to make closing off the well take more than just exploring it, as Tebryn found the runes and rituals needed to close of the Well at Nemora quite difficult.


Even though Bandeline was involved in demon summoning, his well clearly lead to the Netherworld and so it might also make more sense for it to be another course of Death mana. Normally it would represent the real death sphere and thus probably be opposed to undeath magic, but would be a powerful source of undead magic if closed.

It should be noted that permanently sealing a Well of Creation is a horrible idea, and certainly not something the Elohim would want. Sealing the wells seems to be a big part of Ceridwen's plan to destroy the world, hence her ordering Tebryn to close the Well of Nemora. It seems quite probable that souls that long for the next world would be led to Mulcarn's hell if the door to Arawn's dreamworld was locked to them, which is likely one of Ceridwen's main motives in wanting them closed and a reason why the evil gods have lately been able to collect far more souls than their due. The Elohim's sanctification of the well should surely involve opening it up again for the souls of the deceased to find their rest, rather than being eternally bound to walk Erebus after their time has past, turning them and the lands they walk into a nightmare.


It might also be interesting for undead units to disappear when they move into or near the well (unless it is explored/closed off), as the call of the netherworld to the dead is quite powerful when they are so close to it. It could also be interesting to somehow boost death spells cast here, at least once closed, as the spirits would still be drawn to the well but being unable to enter they could easily be captured and force to do a necromancer's bidding.
 
You should not be able to use the tactics promotions afforded by a commander to get the blitz promotion.

Also, I don't like that divided souls can be upgraded and keep their ability. Rangers that can teleport doesn't seem right. Maybe ghosts and marksmen would be ok.
 
Also, I don't like that divided souls can be upgraded and keep their ability. Rangers that can teleport doesn't seem right. Maybe ghosts and marksmen would be ok.

It was one of the biggest complaints about the sidar for a long time, the lack of that.

Personally, I found that it's having hunters who can teleport, but who mysteriously forget that ability, to be what "doesn't feel right". It also encouraged counterintuitive behaviour, in not upgrading the unit.
 
Personally, I think it would be much better if Bradeline's Well did not increase its plot counter until explored. I also can't think of any reason in the lore why a Well of Creation would be particularly evil unless and until someone messed with it. These Wells are passageways that the souls of the dead take to find their rest in the next life. True, the Well of Shadows was a rather creepy place before Auric destroyed the widdershins curse, but it wasn't particularly evil, that curse may not have been naturally occurring anyway (I suspect the involvement of a certain Once Elf Necromancer with allegiance to Laroth, but probably shouldn't be revealing this from the Ashes of Brigdarrow so I'll stop now), and that well lead straight to a part of the netherworld rules by Laroth. Nemora was probably the greatest paradise on Erebus until Tebryn closed off its well, thus forming the Dead Lands. It might even be appropriate to make closing off the well take more than just exploring it, as Tebryn found the runes and rituals needed to close of the Well at Nemora quite difficult.


Even though Bandeline was involved in demon summoning, his well clearly lead to the Netherworld and so it might also make more sense for it to be another course of Death mana. Normally it would represent the real death sphere and thus probably be opposed to undeath magic, but would be a powerful source of undead magic if closed.

It should be noted that permanently sealing a Well of Creation is a horrible idea, and certainly not something the Elohim would want. Sealing the wells seems to be a big part of Ceridwen's plan to destroy the world, hence her ordering Tebryn to close the Well of Nemora. It seems quite probable that souls that long for the next world would be led to Mulcarn's hell if the door to Arawn's dreamworld was locked to them, which is likely one of Ceridwen's main motives in wanting them closed and a reason why the evil gods have lately been able to collect far more souls than their due. The Elohim's sanctification of the well should surely involve opening it up again for the souls of the deceased to find their rest, rather than being eternally bound to walk Erebus after their time has past, turning them and the lands they walk into a nightmare.


It might also be interesting for undead units to disappear when they move into or near the well (unless it is explored/closed off), as the call of the netherworld to the dead is quite powerful when they are so close to it. It could also be interesting to somehow boost death spells cast here, at least once closed, as the spirits would still be drawn to the well but being unable to enter they could easily be captured and force to do a necromancer's bidding.


The event text specifically says "This site is corrupted. let us repair the damage that has been wrought"

Sealing isn't actually mentioned, that was just paraphrasing on my part.
 
I actually like that the Tactics 1/2 of the Commander promos let me get blitz for a unit without having to give them Combat V or Drill IV. Otherwise I'd never take that commander promo.

Giving random units Blitz isn't going to be very effective under most circumstances, it still eats a promotion point, and the unit still needs multiple moves to be effective. Blitz Horseman = good. Blitz Axeman = meh. Blitz Axeman with Mobility I? Now we're talking, even though we're two promotions in the hole.
 
Giving random units Blitz isn't going to be very effective under most circumstances, it still eats a promotion point, and the unit still needs multiple moves to be effective. Blitz Horseman = good. Blitz Axeman = meh. Blitz Axeman with Mobility I? Now we're talking, even though we're two promotions in the hole.


There's also the matter that they need to be strong enough to still be useful, when attacking again in the same turn, while most likely already injured. Most non heroes are just kamikaze units if they attack at half health or below against the average fortified position.
 
There's also the matter that they need to be strong enough to still be useful, when attacking again in the same turn, while most likely already injured. Most non heroes are just kamikaze units if they attack at half health or below against the average fortified position.

I must play very differently. All my units are uber... and if they aren't I make sure they get a seat at the experience feeding table, so they can at least reach level 6. I stay at war as long as I can, until war weariness is crippling me, and I go for wonders building etc that give experience first and foremost. Then blitz makes leveling up even faster. And it's not like you have to attack a second time, but if you got lucky the first time, second time is just as good. Blitz is a very powerful promotion.. And yes, I give a good deal of my units mobility 1... it gives you more options to attack at opportune times, (like if a unit wanders into desert, or has to cross a plains tile) therefore giving you the attack XP boost.
 
from the bug thread

Neomega said:
Perhaps there should also be a formation that completely counters marksmen. Meaning marksmen or not, the strongest unit in the army defends

vehem said:
That's what Guardsman does (or rather - it makes the strongest Guardsman defend - meaning it's upto the player to make sure their good defensive units are assigned to be the Guardsmen)

Yes, I know, and guardsman aint that great. It would be better if you could give your commander a promotion, that gives all the units in his army guardsman.
 
What race do you play as normally? I like my heavy duty awesome troops too - maybe I don't baby them as much? - but they never come anywhere near to the kind of ride-by devastation a hero causes.
 
What race do you play as normally? I like my heavy duty awesome troops too - maybe I don't baby them as much? - but they never come anywhere near to the kind of ride-by devastation a hero causes.

Sidar. I baby all my units like crazy. Well I mean, when they come out green, I might throw them into 35% battles, those that survive though get mentored by the much more experienced. That is probably why some people can finish games in a couple days. Every turn takes me 2 or 3 minutes, and sometimes it takes 15 - 30 minutes, If I really am trying to figure out how to best squeeze out some XP. And honestly, commanders just made the task more difficult and thought churning... especially since they can't haste, or go any faster (keep up with 3 MP units) or be effected by Nox Noctis.
 
See, as the Scions I'll baby my troops because midgame I stop having infinite hammers and start having to worry about building population points.

As the Bannor, though - wheat and chaff. I make large numbers of really angry Bannor troops and fling them into battles. The ones that survive get mentored by my commanders, or become commanders themselves.
 
Did you know that hawks can get CoE? Well, they can; adding this to their amazing ability to teleport to rival cities -whom have open boarders- and you have the formula for a quicker religious victory. Another reason hydroclopse thinks the hawk's teleport is a bit overpowered.
 
Did you know that hawks can get CoE? Well, they can; adding this to their amazing ability to teleport to rival cities -whom have open boarders- and you have the formula for a quicker religious victory. Another reason hydroclopse thinks the hawk's teleport is a bit overpowered.

I never play with religious victory... so I like hawks getting coe
 
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