Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

Could aircraft re-base so freely in BtS? Its been quite some time since I've played BtS.

Even so, aircraft weren't available as early on as hawks can be.


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Another Nit-Pick:

Some leader traits seem more like civilization specific traits. Agnostic is the first that comes to mind -although for balance purposes adaptive would qualify as well-. I nit-pick because in MP i usually allow unrestricted leaders (basically making anyone who doesn't pick an adaptive leader silly) which more or less guarantees no one will pick an agnostic leader -but some players might pick a civilization whom should be agnostic-.
 
Since it's a balance discussion, what do people think about Bannor Clerics?

I think they might be a "little much", it's nice to have such an early unit who has a Medic promotion, that may be good enough to help bumps and bruises your army gets, but granting the March promo (or a clone of it) to lots of units in your stack? Maybe a bit much. I guess though it does encourage being very organized about your stacks in the early game, if you have a group of five axemen hunting around for barb cities, having a cleric along with them to charge them up is a good idea, and seems lore appropriate (army having a religious nut with it, even before the Order gets founded).

I do wonder though if the extremely valuable March promo might be better replaced by some kind of attack strength buff of some sort, something minor, call it "Fervour" worth a +10% str. Again, they do have Medic I for when they're standing still, licking their wounds. Might be more appropriate to just envision the cleric whipping up the troops with glorious evangelical crap, than stitching them all up on the run.
 
I realize that Infernals aren't kinda supposed to be played from the start, but I tried them in an OCC and they were incredible. Then I tried them in a normal game. I don't know what caused it, but suddenly my lands began spawning Pyre Zombies and Imps in completely crazy amounts. I had just gotten my third city and all of a sudden there were three or four zombies spawned each turn and an imp every third or so. And at that point they were still hostile to me, which made improving my lands impossible (as three Pyre Zombies kill any stack of Warriors pretty dead outside the city walls).

In the OCC the barbarian demons began spawning only after I had gotten peace with them, but even then I noticed that the spawn rate seemed awfully high.

So, what triggers the spawning and it is really intended that even with a moderately minor amount of hell spawns a dozen units in three turns?

Edit: Oh yeah, another thing. Archos seem to always found RoK in my games. They have been present in three of my last games (always as my immediate neighbours with spiders trying to eat my workers) and have always founded RoK. Is this intentional?
 
Lemminkäinen;8351950 said:
I realize that Infernals aren't kinda supposed to be played from the start, but I tried them in an OCC and they were incredible. Then I tried them in a normal game. I don't know what caused it, but suddenly my lands began spawning Pyre Zombies and Imps in completely crazy amounts. I had just gotten my third city and all of a sudden there were three or four zombies spawned each turn and an imp every third or so. And at that point they were still hostile to me, which made improving my lands impossible (as three Pyre Zombies kill any stack of Warriors pretty dead outside the city walls).

In the OCC the barbarian demons began spawning only after I had gotten peace with them, but even then I noticed that the spawn rate seemed awfully high.

So, what triggers the spawning and it is really intended that even with a moderately minor amount of hell spawns a dozen units in three turns?

Edit: Oh yeah, another thing. Archos seem to always found RoK in my games. They have been present in three of my last games (always as my immediate neighbours with spiders trying to eat my workers) and have always founded RoK. Is this intentional?

I think the demon spawn rate needs to be adjusted. I love the idea, but it seems they routinely remove multiple AI civs, razing all their cities in the process. This sends the AC higher quickly, summoning the horsemen, which the already-reeling AI simply can't deal with.

Perhaps the demons that spawn should ignore the human's tech level? As the system is now, I think you could play a peaceful OCC, build the Prophecy of Ragnorak, tech like crazy, and watch Beasts of Agares stomp the AI civs into the ground.
 
The AI tech paths really need to be fixed. The more games I play the more how significant I'm convinced it is. Two particular examples:

1) Certain key techs aren't being researched if starting in ice (a common occurrence in the Erebus mapscript). The AI needs to prioritize differently. Right now, the AI gets totally flustered and ends up with a size 1 city all game (until somebody else feels like conquering him, that is). And, this happens even to the Illians.

2) Religion founding. Religions should be a key element of games. But, the AIs simply aren't founding religions like they should. It seems like, as soon as they get a religion, they're content and don't bother researching another one, even if hugely beneficial and/or their favorite religion. I would suggest that if the AI has a favorite religion, they shouldn't adopt another religion even if it spreads to them. (In addition to having a priority put on researching their religion of course.)
 
I think the demon spawn rate needs to be adjusted. I love the idea, but it seems they routinely remove multiple AI civs, razing all their cities in the process. This sends the AC higher quickly, summoning the horsemen, which the already-reeling AI simply can't deal with.

Perhaps the demons that spawn should ignore the human's tech level? As the system is now, I think you could play a peaceful OCC, build the Prophecy of Ragnorak, tech like crazy, and watch Beasts of Agares stomp the AI civs into the ground.
In the OCC I gifted Ashen Veil to the Malakim. Let's just say that hell terraining their desert probably didn't seem like such a wise move to the resulting size 1 cities. The AI basically suicided there.
 
I think the demon spawn rate needs to be adjusted. I love the idea, but it seems they routinely remove multiple AI civs, razing all their cities in the process. This sends the AC higher quickly, summoning the horsemen, which the already-reeling AI simply can't deal with.

Perhaps the demons that spawn should ignore the human's tech level? As the system is now, I think you could play a peaceful OCC, build the Prophecy of Ragnorak, tech like crazy, and watch Beasts of Agares stomp the AI civs into the ground.

I don't think we shouldn't decrease the demon spawn rate. (After all, if you hate the demons so much, you can do a custom game and turn demons off, same as with Savages and Animals.) Instead, imho, the AI needs to be programmed to do 2 things...



1st, the AI should build more settlers, to increase the amount of cities worldwide. I'd say a x% increase in how often AI builds settlers. (I'd prefer the x% increase be below 30 myself, to avoid any issues with balance.) The reason for this is I've noticed that certain civs, even in lategame (after turn 550 or so [remember I use epic speed; and by turn 550, only a few techs are yet to be researched]), never build more than 5 cities, which are usually low pop. (By lategame, you'd think they'd have settled more cities than 5. :mad: It's kinda lame, imho. :lol:) Most civs, by this point, have 7 or so cities, which isn't really enough either.
Of course, part of this is a few civs lack good :food: terrain/resources. After all, only the Malakim survive well in deserts. :lol: Another part of it is that the AC is high enough that at least 1 or 2 plagues have come and gone. (Those seem to hit the AI hard, cuz the AI never seems to get that it needs to focus on pop growth after a plague ends.) I wouldn't change the frequency or harshness of plagues, but I'd suggest the AI be programmed to conduct the ritual "Genesis".


2nd, the AI still never spends gold, except to offer to buy techs for rediculously low prices. (500 gold or less, along with offering their world map :smug: Thanks, but no thanks. :lol:) The problem here is that some AI civs rarely upgrade its archers or axemen by lategame. (Or neglects to build new longbowmen, champions, and other units; and then never uses their obsolete units as fodder, of course, since those units are still sitting guarding their cities.) This isn't always true. Usually civs with hostile neighbors upgrade their units. But civs that are either fairly isolated or have friendly neighbors rarely upgrade. As a result, by the time the Demons start spawning bigtime all over the world, these civs either get their cities burnt to the ground or just flatout get destroyed by the barbs. This could be due to these civs never being able to generate enough revenue.
A prime example of this problem in my last few games are the Sheaim, under Tebryn Arbandi and with AV as their religion, and the Lunan, under Hannah the Irin and with OO as their religion. (So, the Lunan are evil, not neutral, as they are by default.) Both of these civs were fairly close to each other, but no one else.
The Sheaim got absolutely raped by the Demons. In fact, I felt so bad for them that I perodically would use WB to give them free defensive units and settlers. The idea was that, eventually, they'd be able to fend off the demon attacks. (Btw, with AV religion, why aren't the Sheaim friendly with the Demons? Why aren't all AV civs friendly with the Demons? Of course, the Infernals are, but it just makes sense to me that ALL AV civs would be. Maybe someone could explain this to me...) Unfortunately, it didn't work, so I just let them die eventually. :lol: I wasn't AV; I prefer OO; but hey, "Sacrifice the Weak" anyone? :lol: The Lunan, of course, were the next to get raped, always in exactly the same manner and then also were wiped out quickly.

(Btw, I usually play on noble or on increasing difficulty setting on a hugemap like Erebus [with no sharpening of mountains, since my PC can't handle the sharpening] on epic speed. I also usually have 13-16 civs on the map total. It's a little much, but I like to see 1 or 2 AI civs get conquered...by me or someone else.)
 
The sheiam and infernals are supposed to get automatic peace with demons on converting to AV. If they don't, that's bug.

All other civs have to complete Pax Diabolis and sacrifice a city, to gain peace with Agares
 
The sheiam and infernals are supposed to get automatic peace with demons on converting to AV. If they don't, that's bug.

All other civs have to complete Pax Diabolis and sacrifice a city, to gain peace with Agares

I spose I better report it then. Thanks.
 
I don't think we shouldn't decrease the demon spawn rate. (After all, if you hate the demons so much, you can do a custom game and turn demons off, same as with Savages and Animals.)

I'm not sure I agree with this. Just having an option to remove something entirely from the game doesn't mean it shouldn't be tweaked to function better.

I only play on emperor, and I've found the AI just can't deal with the demons, even if I gift them techs to help them along. My last game saw fully developed civs completely destoyed (numbers 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9 on the scorelist) removed by demons before I just quit the game. I can live with some weaklings destoyed or powerful civs stymied, but eliminating the third and fourth civs?

I had an earlier game where exceptional luck led me to get mithril working around turn 200 (popped Engineering from a hut, Infernal Grimoire'ed Mithril Working). I had a similar problem in that game, but after some discussion here attributed it to my ridiculously early tech progress. The very next game, though, I had the same issues.
 
I only play on emperor, and I've found the AI just can't deal with the demons, even if I gift them techs to help them along. My last game saw fully developed civs completely destoyed (numbers 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9 on the scorelist) removed by demons before I just quit the game. I can live with some weaklings destoyed or powerful civs stymied, but eliminating the third and fourth civs?

The AI can't deal with the demons. Can YOU ?

Since you're not remarking about how they tore you to shreds, I'm guessing you're relatively capable of handling them

The problem here, is not necessarily that the demons are too hard (maybe they are) but that the AI can't deal with them. Which is a problem with the AI in general being clueless as to all kinds of battle tactics, management of forces, sanctifying terrain, and preparing for the future, etc.
 
The sheiam and infernals are supposed to get automatic peace with demons on converting to AV. If they don't, that's bug.
They do. The problem I had was with a handful of demons spawning every turn while I still hadn't even begun researching KotE. I would've needed to kill hundreds of demons before I could've gotten AV (they pillaged my lands of cottages and mines so researching would've taken forever).

I didn't notice what the AC was at the time but I don't think that it could've been too high what with no AV yet and it being really beginning stages.
 
Would anyone know if the AI gets equally stomped by demons when 'Aggressive AI' is turned on? Perhaps just a bit more aggression at the horned jerks might save their lives.
 
i think one of the main problems with hell terrain is that it starts spreading from bradelines well and often without being noticed/noticeable/counterable.
usually the ac then rises from purge the unfaithful more than anything else. suddenly its at 25 and it starts spreading and the ai wont even bother trying to stop its spread.

i would suggest a new option in high council which if it succeeds releases 4 wardens who sanctify the area around the well like this

.............W
.
........W -B- W
.
.............W

every1 of them 2 spaces away from the well ordered like this who sanctify the area.

they could either only last a few turns or be quite weak so they are killed by demons/ barbs.

this would make sense even more as u need multiple civs follow the high council who then represent a force which tries to stop the spread of the hell terrain.

if your game is full with evil civs u wont be able to release those wardens and these evil civs can raise the ac as they wish :D

this would also make adopting the high council more useful. at the moment i often find it more of a burden than useful compared to it's alternative
 
Bradeline's well spreads hell terrain according to the rules that all hell terrain works on. Ie, It's only really going to cause spreading if it's in the territory of an AV civ. Otherwise, you need AC 25 for it to start spreading to unowned land, 50 for evil, 75 for neutral, etc.

If you want to stop it, go good, and build a city near it. That permanantly stops it from spreading around you. Also, the elohim have a special event on the well, to permanantly seal it. It turns it into spirit mana, and removes the hell terrain from it.
 
i now had 3 games where i didnt know where the well even WAS. when playing on large or huge maps u honestly just cant go next to it and build a city if its on the other end of the map.

this is a truly bad argument.
ac at 25 is no problem at all in many games. and then it starts spreading and after 100 turns u cant stop its spread anymore because of level 5 manticores and minotaurs who even kill a valin phanuel with 150 xp at 30 or 40 % chance.

just because there sometimes might be a solution to this problem in most cases there isnt and thats why it has to be changed imo

If you want to stop it, go good, and build a city near it. That permanantly stops it from spreading around you. Also, the elohim have a special event on the well, to permanantly seal it. It turns it into spirit mana, and removes the hell terrain from it.

thats even worse. i HAVE to stop it or i can quit the game because i win anyway. the ai is completely 100% too dumb to even defend theirselves against the demons. i dont want to stop it because i cant cope with the situation but because its just gameruining and ending
 
I saw the AI elohim stopping it quite recently, by sealing the well.

The well itself also gives mana dna nice tile yields, as well as being explorable. This draws people to it in general. Sometimes it's in a remote part of the world, and that's just how it goes. but often, it will be in the territory of a civ. As long as that civ isn't AV, the well isn't really a problem
 
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