Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

[to_xp]Gekko · Aug 4, 2009

simply not allowing anyone ( human or AI ) to attack HN units in friendly cities will do the trick and solve more than enough annoyances ( hallo, mr. brand new nightwatch courtesy of getting deception... oh noes, he got killed by my buddy before I could even control it :lol:

)

xienwolf · Aug 4, 2009

Making HN not hostile in cities messes with the AI hardcore. They can't deal with their status changing like that and get stuck in WoC loops.

odalrick · Aug 5, 2009

I think it is simply one of those cost of doing business things. If you want to have units that can run around killing stuff you're not at war with, you can't complain when they get killed by things you're not at war with.

If you want to kill stuff without drawbacks, just declare war already!

That said, new units getting killed before you have a chance to do anything could be done away with fairly simply.

Replace Hidden Nationality on starting units with a new promotion, Hiding Nationality (or a better name). Hiding Nationality would degrade to Hidden Nationality after a turn. That way you'd always have one turn to move it to a more defensible location or declare nationality.

Wodan · Aug 5, 2009

Wodan said:
Following up on the great commander / mounted issue, I've run into a related concern. One of the Jotar's big advantages is being able to walk over mountains and ignore terrain (and this will also apply to dwarves, elves, and others). However, when the GC can't do the same, it pretty much makes an army not able to use those benefits. In other words, the entire army can walk over the mountains or ignore terrain EXCEPT for the single person, the general.

So, it's two related situations... mounted, and ignore terrain / impassable. Somebody suggested making the GC able to attach. That seems to me to be a big hairy mess, programming-wise. But it might work. Giving the GC the "race" of the civ will work for some of the situations (but not mounted). So maybe it needs some all-encompassing solution (such as "attach") or maybe a partial solution will be better than nothing.

Follow up from the bug thread:

Neomega said:
I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, but commanders are quite unwieldy. For example, the scout III promotion doesn't give themselves an extra movement point, so moving around with them is difficult. Also, they can expose, but cannot have shroud of Esus, so they annoyingly are always picked off if you forget they are the only units not invisible. I think they are immune to any and all spells, because they are technically a great person, and not an actual unit.

And from the New Great Generals thread:

Iceciro said:
Hippus defiantly need a mounted commander more than they need mounted anyone else. Ask yourself, is the common Hippus going to trust anybody NOT on a horse to take combat orders from?

So, generals REALLY need to get the attributes of their units OR they need to be attached or something. Whether movement, mounted, hidden, whatever... it just seems there are all kinds of problems that arise.

WarKirby · Aug 5, 2009

No global solutions are needed for commandrs

1. They need to recieve their civ's racial promos
2. They need permission to aquire Mobility I and II. This will be in next patch
3. UNITCOMBAT_COMMANDER needs to be added to a lot of relevant promotions. It'd be really useful if someone could compile a list. For example, shroud of esus is one. Most spell effects are another.

odalrick · Aug 5, 2009

WarKirby said:
No global solutions are needed for commandrs

1. They need to recieve their civ's racial promos
2. They need permission to aquire Mobility I and II. This will be in next patch
3. UNITCOMBAT_COMMANDER needs to be added to a lot of relevant promotions. It'd be really useful if someone could compile a list. For example, shroud of esus is one. Most spell effects are another.

I was somewhat bored so I went through all the promotions in Assets\XML\Units\CIV4PromotionInfos.xml, which I think is all of them, apart from a few bannor specific ones.

I sorted them by how many unitcombats they are available to, on the assumption that promotions available to many unitcombats should probably be available to commanders as well.

Available to 11 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 10 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 9 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 8 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 7 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 6 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 5 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 4 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 3 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 2 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

Available to 1 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

It seems like a good heuristic, they should probably get all promotions available to 8 to 10 unitcombats; many available to 5 to 7; and very few available to 1 to 4, only Mobility II that I noticed.

Incidentally, I noticed level 2 and 3 of Force, Dimensional and Creation are only available to arcane units. Is that intentional?

WarKirby · Aug 5, 2009

odalrick said:
I was somewhat bored so I went through all the promotions in Assets\XML\Units\CIV4PromotionInfos.xml, which I think is all of them, apart from a few bannor specific ones.

I sorted them by how many unitcombats they are available to, on the assumption that promotions available to many unitcombats should probably be available to commanders as well.

Available to 11 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_TESTPROMO
PROMOTION_UNWHOLESOME_ADDICTION
PROMOTION_SHATTERED_NERVE
PROMOTION_MITHRIL_WEAPONS
PROMOTION_IRON_WEAPONS
PROMOTION_HAUNTED_LANDS_EFFECT
PROMOTION_DUNESPEAK
PROMOTION_CLOAK_OF_ESUS
PROMOTION_CALLED
PROMOTION_BRONZE_WEAPONS

Available to 10 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_WATER3
PROMOTION_WATER2
PROMOTION_SUN3
PROMOTION_SUN2
PROMOTION_SPIRIT3
PROMOTION_SPIRIT2
PROMOTION_SHADOW3
PROMOTION_SHADOW2
PROMOTION_NATURE3
PROMOTION_NATURE2
PROMOTION_MIND3
PROMOTION_MIND2
PROMOTION_METAMAGIC3
PROMOTION_METAMAGIC2
PROMOTION_MALAISE
PROMOTION_LIFE3
PROMOTION_LIFE2
PROMOTION_LAW3
PROMOTION_LAW2
PROMOTION_ICE3
PROMOTION_ICE2
PROMOTION_HEROIC_STRENGTH2
PROMOTION_HEROIC_STRENGTH
PROMOTION_HEROIC_DEFENSE2
PROMOTION_HEROIC_DEFENSE
PROMOTION_FIRE3
PROMOTION_FIRE2
PROMOTION_ENTROPY3
PROMOTION_ENTROPY2
PROMOTION_ENCHANTMENT3
PROMOTION_ENCHANTMENT2
PROMOTION_EARTH3
PROMOTION_EARTH2
PROMOTION_DEATH3
PROMOTION_DEATH2
PROMOTION_CORPUS3
PROMOTION_CORPUS2
PROMOTION_CHAOS3
PROMOTION_CHAOS2
PROMOTION_BODY3
PROMOTION_BODY2
PROMOTION_AIR3
PROMOTION_AIR2
PROMOTION_WEIRD_WRACKED
PROMOTION_TURN
PROMOTION_STASIS
PROMOTION_SLOW
PROMOTION_PLAGUED
PROMOTION_LOST
PROMOTION_HIDDEN_NATIONALITY
PROMOTION_HIDDEN
PROMOTION_HAND_OF_THE_REAPER
PROMOTION_ESTRANGED
PROMOTION_DISEASED
PROMOTION_BLACKBLOOD

Available to 9 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_SENTRY
PROMOTION_MOBILITY1
PROMOTION_GCF_SUBTERFUGE
PROMOTION_GCF_BATTLE_COMMAND3
PROMOTION_GCF_BATTLE_COMMAND2
PROMOTION_GCF_BATTLE_COMMAND1
PROMOTION_COMBAT5
PROMOTION_COMBAT4
PROMOTION_COMBAT3
PROMOTION_COMBAT2
PROMOTION_COMBAT1
PROMOTION_MUTATED
PROMOTION_LOYALTY
PROMOTION_HAUNTSTALK
PROMOTION_HASTED
PROMOTION_DRAW_STRENGTH_OUTSIDE_BORDERS
PROMOTION_DRAW_STRENGTH
PROMOTION_DEADLY_MISHAP_DUMMY
PROMOTION_DEADLY_MISHAP
PROMOTION_CREEPER_BURRS
PROMOTION_BLUR

Available to 8 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_STIGMATA
PROMOTION_POISON_RESISTANCE
PROMOTION_MAGIC_RESISTANCE
PROMOTION_LIGHTNING_RESISTANCE
PROMOTION_FIRE_RESISTANCE
PROMOTION_DRILL2
PROMOTION_DRILL1
PROMOTION_COLD_RESISTANCE
PROMOTION_CANNIBALIZE
PROMOTION_WITHERED
PROMOTION_WINTERBORN
PROMOTION_TERRIFIED
PROMOTION_STONESKIN
PROMOTION_SHEUT_STONE
PROMOTION_SHADOWWALK
PROMOTION_RIOT_AND_SEDITION
PROMOTION_REGENERATION
PROMOTION_PROPHECY_MARK
PROMOTION_MARK_OF_THE_WARDEN
PROMOTION_HAUNTSTALK_ART
PROMOTION_FURIOUS
PROMOTION_ENERVATED
PROMOTION_DEATH_GEAS
PROMOTION_DANCE_OF_BLADES
PROMOTION_CORRUPT_QUARTERMASTER
PROMOTION_CHARMED
PROMOTION_AMBITION

Available to 7 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_SNEAK
PROMOTION_RACKETEERING2
PROMOTION_RACKETEERING1
PROMOTION_FEAR
PROMOTION_FADE_AWAY
PROMOTION_DECEITFUL
PROMOTION_FALSE_POSITION
PROMOTION_BLESSED

Available to 6 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_SHOCK
PROMOTION_GUERILLA1
PROMOTION_FORMATION
PROMOTION_DRILL4
PROMOTION_DRILL3
PROMOTION_COVER
PROMOTION_GCF_FIELD_MEDICINE2
PROMOTION_GCF_FIELD_MEDICINE1
PROMOTION_GCF_LEADERSHIP
PROMOTION_COMMANDO
PROMOTION_CAMISADE
PROMOTION_BLITZ
PROMOTION_AMPHIBIOUS
PROMOTION_AMBUSH2
PROMOTION_AMBUSH1
PROMOTION_VALOR
PROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE
PROMOTION_SHIELD_OF_FAITH
PROMOTION_PACIFIST
PROMOTION_MORALE
PROMOTION_MEDIC1
PROMOTION_DOOMSPINNER_COMBAT
PROMOTION_COURAGE
PROMOTION_BURNING_BLOOD
PROMOTION_AMBUSH2_EFFECT
PROMOTION_AMBUSH1_EFFECT

Available to 5 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_IMPLACABLE
PROMOTION_GUERILLA2
PROMOTION_BOUNTY_HUNTER
PROMOTION_JOT_SEASONED_GIANT
PROMOTION_JOT_RENOWNED_GIANT
PROMOTION_JOT_PROMINENT_GIANT
PROMOTION_JOT_LEGENDARY_GIANT

Available to 4 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_WOODSMAN1
PROMOTION_TACTICS2
PROMOTION_TACTICS1
PROMOTION_MOBILITY2
PROMOTION_FREELANCER
PROMOTION_CITY_RAIDER1
PROMOTION_ORC_SLAYING
PROMOTION_FREELANCER_EFFECT
PROMOTION_FELLOWSHIP_FORESETER
PROMOTION_CORPUS_MARKER

Available to 3 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_UNDEAD_SLAYING
PROMOTION_SHOCK2
PROMOTION_SENTRY2
PROMOTION_SCOURGE
PROMOTION_MARCH_CLERIC
PROMOTION_MARCH
PROMOTION_FORMATION2
PROMOTION_FLANKING1
PROMOTION_DEMON_SLAYING
PROMOTION_COVER2
PROMOTION_CITY_RAIDER3
PROMOTION_CITY_RAIDER2
PROMOTION_GIANT_SLAYING
PROMOTION_DIVINE_RIVALRY

Available to 2 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_WOODSMAN2
PROMOTION_TWINCAST
PROMOTION_TACTICS3
PROMOTION_PERFECT_SIGHT
PROMOTION_MARKSMAN
PROMOTION_HEADLESS
PROMOTION_FLANKING3
PROMOTION_FLANKING2
PROMOTION_DEFENSIVE
PROMOTION_CITY_GARRISON1
PROMOTION_BARRAGE3
PROMOTION_BARRAGE2
PROMOTION_BARRAGE1
PROMOTION_WARDEN
PROMOTION_UNSTOPPABLE
PROMOTION_UNRELIABLE
PROMOTION_SUNDERED
PROMOTION_POTENCY
PROMOTION_ENCHANTED_BLADE
PROMOTION_CHOSEN
PROMOTION_BONUS_PAY

Available to 1 unitcombats:

Spoiler :

PROMOTION_FOREST_CREEPER_TIMER
PROMOTION_FOREST_MOVE_ONLY
PROMOTION_SPIDER_VENENUM_GREATER
PROMOTION_SPIDER_VENENUM
PROMOTION_SPIDER_ARGYRONETA_GREATER
PROMOTION_SPIDER_ARGYRONETA
PROMOTION_SPIDER_TEXTUS_GREATER
PROMOTION_SPIDER_TEXTUS
PROMOTION_SPIDER_MUCRO_GREATER
PROMOTION_SPIDER_MUCRO
PROMOTION_SPIDER_RHAGODESSA_GREATER
PROMOTION_SPIDER_RHAGODESSA
PROMOTION_WATER1
PROMOTION_TURNED_UNDEAD_ART
PROMOTION_SUN1
PROMOTION_SUBDUE_BEASTS
PROMOTION_SUBDUE_ANIMAL
PROMOTION_SPIRIT1
PROMOTION_SNAP_OUT
PROMOTION_SKILLED5
PROMOTION_SKILLED4
PROMOTION_SKILLED3
PROMOTION_SKILLED2
PROMOTION_SKILLED1
PROMOTION_SHADOW1
PROMOTION_PRECISION
PROMOTION_POLISHED_DIPLOMAT
PROMOTION_NAVIGATION2
PROMOTION_NAVIGATION1
PROMOTION_NATURE1
PROMOTION_MIND1
PROMOTION_METAMAGIC1
PROMOTION_LIFE1
PROMOTION_LAW1
PROMOTION_KEEN_SIGHT
PROMOTION_INQUISITOR
PROMOTION_ICE1
PROMOTION_HARDY3
PROMOTION_HARDY2
PROMOTION_HARDY1
PROMOTION_GUARDSMAN
PROMOTION_FORCE3
PROMOTION_FORCE2
PROMOTION_FORCE1
PROMOTION_FIRE1
PROMOTION_FLAMING_ARROWS
PROMOTION_EXTENSION2
PROMOTION_EXTENSION1
PROMOTION_EXPANDED_HULL
PROMOTION_ENTROPY1
PROMOTION_ENCHANTMENT1
PROMOTION_EARTH1
PROMOTION_DIMENSIONAL3
PROMOTION_DIMENSIONAL2
PROMOTION_DIMENSIONAL1
PROMOTION_DEATH1
PROMOTION_CREATION3
PROMOTION_CREATION2
PROMOTION_CREATION1
PROMOTION_CORPUS1
PROMOTION_GCF_ARCANE_MENTOR2
PROMOTION_GCF_ARCANE_MENTOR1
PROMOTION_GC_ARCANE_MENTOR2
PROMOTION_GC_ARCANE_MENTOR1
PROMOTION_GCF_SCOUTING3
PROMOTION_GCF_SCOUTING2
PROMOTION_GCF_SCOUTING1
PROMOTION_GC_SCOUTING3
PROMOTION_GC_SCOUTING2
PROMOTION_GC_SCOUTING1
PROMOTION_GCF_ZEALOUS2
PROMOTION_GC_ZEALOUS2
PROMOTION_GCF_ZEALOUS1
PROMOTION_GC_ZEALOUS1
PROMOTION_GCF_GARRISON_COMMANDER2
PROMOTION_GC_GARRISON_COMMANDER2
PROMOTION_GCF_GARRISON_COMMANDER1
PROMOTION_GC_GARRISON_COMMANDER1
PROMOTION_GCF_ARCHERY_COMMANDER2
PROMOTION_GC_ARCHERY_COMMANDER2
PROMOTION_GCF_ARCHERY_COMMANDER1
PROMOTION_GC_ARCHERY_COMMANDER1
PROMOTION_GCF_ARTILLERY_MASTER
PROMOTION_GC_ARTILLERY_MASTER
PROMOTION_GCF_SIEGE_WARFARE2
PROMOTION_GC_SIEGE_WARFARE2
PROMOTION_GCF_SIEGE_WARFARE1
PROMOTION_GC_SIEGE_WARFARE1
PROMOTION_GCF_FORMATION_LOOSE_ACTIVE
PROMOTION_GC_FORMATION_LOOSE
PROMOTION_GCF_FORMATION_BLOCK_ACTIVE
PROMOTION_GC_FORMATION_BLOCK
PROMOTION_GCF_FORMATION_BATTLELINE_ACTIVE
PROMOTION_GC_FORMATION_BATTLELINE
PROMOTION_GC_SUBTERFUGE
PROMOTION_GC_BATTLEFIELD_TACTICS
PROMOTION_GC_BATTLE_COMMAND3
PROMOTION_GC_BATTLE_COMMAND2
PROMOTION_GC_BATTLE_COMMAND1
PROMOTION_GC_FIELD_MEDIC2
PROMOTION_GC_FIELD_MEDIC1
PROMOTION_GC_LEADERSHIP
PROMOTION_GC_RANGE3
PROMOTION_GC_RANGE2
PROMOTION_GC_RANGE1
PROMOTION_GC_LIMIT3
PROMOTION_GC_LIMIT2
PROMOTION_GC_LIMIT1
PROMOTION_GC_DEFENSE2
PROMOTION_GC_DEFENSE2
PROMOTION_GC_DEFENSE1
PROMOTION_COMMAND4
PROMOTION_COMMAND3
PROMOTION_COMMAND2
PROMOTION_COMMAND1
PROMOTION_CITY_GARRISON3
PROMOTION_CITY_GARRISON2
PROMOTION_CHAOS1
PROMOTION_CALCINATED
PROMOTION_BODY1
PROMOTION_ASSAULT3
PROMOTION_ASSAULT2
PROMOTION_ASSAULT1
PROMOTION_APTITUDE2
PROMOTION_APTITUDE1
PROMOTION_AIR1
PROMOTION_ACCURACY
PROMOTION_WALL_DEFENDER
PROMOTION_UNLEASHED
PROMOTION_SUSTAIN_FROSTLING
PROMOTION_SUPER_SCHMOOZER
PROMOTION_SUPER_SCHEMER
PROMOTION_SPIRITUAL_HAMMER
PROMOTION_SKELETON_CREW
PROMOTION_SINISTER
PROMOTION_SKIRMISHER
PROMOTION_SCHEMER
PROMOTION_RUSTED
PROMOTION_RAMPAGE
PROMOTION_QUICKENED
PROMOTION_POISONED_BLADE
PROMOTION_POISON_DRENCHED
PROMOTION_NORMAL_CREW
PROMOTION_NIGHTMARE
PROMOTION_NECROMANCER
PROMOTION_MONK_PURITY
PROMOTION_MONK_FOCUS
PROMOTION_MONK_ENLIGHTENMENT
PROMOTION_MAD
PROMOTION_LONGSHOREMEN
PROMOTION_KYLORIN_LEGACY
PROMOTION_HUNT_ALCINUS
PROMOTION_HUNGRY_CREEPER
PROMOTION_HORSELORD
PROMOTION_NOT_HORNED_DREAD
PROMOTION_HORNED_DREAD
PROMOTION_HEAVY_FORMATION
PROMOTION_HAUNT_KORRINA
PROMOTION_HAUNT
PROMOTION_GHASTLY_DRAGOON
PROMOTION_FOREST_STEALTH
PROMOTION_FOREST_STALKER
PROMOTION_FERAL
PROMOTION_FED_CREEPER
PROMOTION_FAIR_WINDS
PROMOTION_DEXTEROUS
PROMOTION_DESERTWORKRATE
PROMOTION_CALCINATING
PROMOTION_BUCCANEERS
PROMOTION_ARCHERY3
PROMOTION_ARCHERY2
PROMOTION_ARCHERY1
PROMOTION_ALCINUS_HOSTILE
PROMOTION_ACCELERATED
PROMOTION_WOODS_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_WINDSTONES_RECON
PROMOTION_SUPERIOR_KIT_RECON
PROMOTION_SUPERIOR_TACK_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_SUPERIOR_HORSES_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_SNOW_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_SHADOW_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_PURITY_SEAL_MELEE
PROMOTION_SACRED_HORSES_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_POISON_TRAPS_RECON
PROMOTION_PLATE_MELEE
PROMOTION_PIKES_MELEE
PROMOTION_NIGHTSHADE_RECON
PROMOTION_NIGHT_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_MITHRIL_STRING_ARCHER
PROMOTION_MAZLI_OILED_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_HIGH_QUALITY_MITHRIL_MELEE
PROMOTION_MARCH_WINE_RECON
PROMOTION_MANTRAPS_RECON
PROMOTION_ICE_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_HORSELORDS_TACK_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_FINE_EQUIPMENT_MELEE
PROMOTION_HIGH_QUALITY_STEEL_MELEE
PROMOTION_HIGH_QUALITY_STEEL_ARCHER
PROMOTION_HIGH_QUALITY_BRONZE_MELEE
PROMOTION_HIGH_QUALITY_BRONZE_ARCHER
PROMOTION_SLAB_PLATE_MELEE
PROMOTION_FINE_KIT_RECON
PROMOTION_FINE_BOWS_ARCHER
PROMOTION_FAST_HORSES_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_EXCELLENT_TACK_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_EXCELLENT_KIT_RECON
PROMOTION_ElITE_MELEE
PROMOTION_DESERT_GEAR_RECON
PROMOTION_DEADLY_TRAPS_RECON
PROMOTION_CURSED_WEAPONS_MELEE
PROMOTION_CURSED_LANCES_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_COMPOUND_BOWS_ARCHER
PROMOTION_COMPOSITE_BOWS_ARCHER
PROMOTION_CLIMBING_KIT_RECON
PROMOTION_CLAN_WARPAINT_RECON
PROMOTION_CATAPHRACT_ARMOR_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_CALTROPS_RECON
PROMOTION_FUMES_OF_THE_PIT
PROMOTION_SWORD_OF_AGARES_MELEE
PROMOTION_BLESSED_ARMOR_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_BLESSED_ARMOR_MELEE
PROMOTION_BLACKBLOOD_ARROWS
PROMOTION_BATTLE_MOUNTS_MOUNTED
PROMOTION_BARBED_WEAPONS_MELEE

It seems like a good heuristic, they should probably get all promotions available to 8 to 10 unitcombats; many available to 5 to 7; and very few available to 1 to 4, only Mobility II that I noticed.

Incidentally, I noticed level 2 and 3 of Force, Dimensional and Creation are only available to arcane units. Is that intentional?

Heuristics like that aren't much use here. This is a question of logic and immersion.
In general, commanders should be blocked from most experience-purchased promotions, except a select few where it seems to make sense. Ie, Mobility, Magic Resistance, etc.

They should be vulnerable to all spell effects that affect things generally. Except things like Flaming Arrows which is obviously an archery-specific thing. But things like Haste, Regen, Wierd Wracked, etc, should work on them. And so should Shroud of Esus.

Fixing all these promotions will be easy, but... long, and tedious. Lots of simple but boring work lies in my future, it seems. I'm planning to do a bit of work on the commanders today, so I'll sort out (some of) these while I'm at it.

Oh, and force/dimensional/creation not being available to other unitcombats is definitely a bug. Easy fix too.

Wodan · Aug 5, 2009

WarKirby said:
No global solutions are needed for commandrs

1. They need to recieve their civ's racial promos
2. They need permission to aquire Mobility I and II. This will be in next patch
3. UNITCOMBAT_COMMANDER needs to be added to a lot of relevant promotions. It'd be really useful if someone could compile a list. For example, shroud of esus is one. Most spell effects are another.

That's a great start, but it's more than that. How about Commando? etc.

It'd also be nice if they "inherited" promos from the army, so you don't have to spend valuable commander XP on stuff just to enable them to "keep up". What's the point of a commander if you have to spend his XP to no benefit? The whole point of a commander is to provide extra promos to the army, not to make you spend those extra promos just to get stuff that the whole army already has.

odalrick · Aug 5, 2009

WarKirby said:
Heuristics like that aren't much use here. This is a question of logic and immersion.
In general, commanders should be blocked from most experience-purchased promotions, except a select few where it seems to make sense. Ie, Mobility, Magic Resistance, etc.

Did you even look at the lists? Most of the ones available to lots of unitcombats are limited in some other way; acquired through spells (PROMOTION_REGENERATION), applied automatically when appropriate (PROMOTION_HAUNTED_LANDS_EFFECT) or requires other normally unavailable promotions (PROMOTION_SUN2).

Only Drill and Combat are available in the 8 to 11 category, and I don't see any reason to block them. Why shouldn't you be able to buy some extra protection for your commander if you really want to?

In the 5 to 7 category are a few spells (PROMOTION_COURAGE), esus specific (PROMOTION_AMBUSH2_EFFECT), jotnar specific (PROMOTION_JOT_SEASONED_GIANT) and a few specialist promotions (PROMOTION_GUERILLA1).

1 to 4 I only included for completeness.

I thought about trimming the list but it seemed like a wasted effort. Everyone's going to have different opinions on exactly what promotions should be available and only the opinion of the one who actually makes the changes matter.

WarKirby said:
They should be vulnerable to all spell effects that affect things generally. Except things like Flaming Arrows which is obviously an archery-specific thing. But things like Haste, Regen, Wierd Wracked, etc, should work on them. And so should Shroud of Esus.

And spells that affect things generally, affect many unitcombats; while Flaming Arrows only affect Archers.

WarKirby said:
Fixing all these promotions will be easy, but... long, and tedious. Lots of simple but boring work lies in my future, it seems. I'm planning to do a bit of work on the commanders today, so I'll sort out (some of) these while I'm at it.

With a good heuristic you could write a simple script to do the changes and then fix the small number of inconsistencies by hand. Wink, wink.

Breez · Aug 5, 2009

I think I agree with odalrick. Making Combat or Drill promotions available to commanders isn't a big deal. Let those that want to, spend the promotions on combat related stuff. After all they are pretty gimp combat units anyway. MOST people are going to pass on those such as Wodan mentions below.

Wodan said:
It'd also be nice if they "inherited" promos from the army, so you don't have to spend valuable commander XP on stuff just to enable them to "keep up". What's the point of a commander if you have to spend his XP to no benefit? The whole point of a commander is to provide extra promos to the army, not to make you spend those extra promos just to get stuff that the whole army already has.

he obviously doesn't want to buy those non-commander promotions do to the lost opportunity costs.

(Chiev War Chiefs being the problem child as they actually have an attack capability)

admtanaka · Aug 5, 2009

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I can't see any convincing reason to build a Bedouin Sit:

1. They cost money to build
2. The first 15 turns, my city is working a 0/1/0 tile
3. Even at the highest level, the yield is 2/1/2 (is this ever boosted by anything? I haven't played as them enough...)

Compared to a desert "sprung" via water mana into a plains, which can be:
1. Chain irrigated for 3/0/2 via aristo-agra
2. Workshopped for eventually 0/4/1
3. Towned for eventual 1/1/5+ bonus

WarKirby · Aug 6, 2009

Are you sure they only give 2 :commerce:

? That doesn't seem right.

Andvare · Aug 6, 2009

There is, at present, no reason for the Malakim to not remove all non-river desert, except for strategic reasons, but that is flimsy at best.

(though, the desert hill is as good as plains hill, and the city tile often benefit from desert)

This also means that there is no need for the Beduin Sit.

They were, IMO, overly nerfed.

Valkrionn · Aug 6, 2009

I'm not sure how FF has nerfed them, but originally they gained 1 :food:

at Sanitation.

Cottage- 1
Hamlet- 2
Village- 3, +1 at Taxation
Town- 4, +1 at Taxation

Bedouin Sit- 1 (Costs 15 )
Bedouin Camp- 1 1
Bedouin Gathering- 2 2
Bedouin Village- 3 2, +1 at Sanitation

admtanaka · Aug 6, 2009

If the 'pedia is accurate, Bedouin Villages have been removed.

Spoiler :

This is the highest yield I can get. The city is working the tile, and you can see it doesn't get upgraded further.

Spoiler :

It just seems a little underpowered.

Monkeyfinger · Aug 6, 2009

Week late, but the AI gets 75% off upgrade costs on all difficulties, settler to deity.

I'd rather see them get 100% on noble with a 15% modifier for difficulty level (resulting in 145% on settler, 25% on deity)

2Hydroclopse · Aug 7, 2009

So... ...Hawks can apparently teleport between cities without considering distance; they can also station themselves in rival -open bordered- cities.

I was curious, so I signed opened borders with a guy on the other side of the map; lo and behold, my hawk was able to warp there and then go into a scouting flyby of the area.

Basically, if you make 2 or 3 hawks, you can super scout a rival's territory in just a couple of turns without having to move units into their borders -other than the hawks stationed in their cities- so long as you nab open borders.

That seems a wee bit unbalanced, for a unit that can be made so cheaply, also considering the AI never use this strategy to my knowledge.

Lone Wolf · Aug 7, 2009

AI's see more of the map then the human, though. Their naval ships, for example, always see everything sea-based in their movement radius.

2Hydroclopse · Aug 7, 2009

Hawks seem to somewhat obsolete the recon branch of the tech tree when playing highly populated maps. -in ways of reconnaissance that is, atleast until you get HN units-

MagisterCultuum · Aug 7, 2009

Well, Hawks are really no different than Aircraft in normal Civ IV (aircraft with n attack strength, that is), so the AI probably does understand their use.

Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

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