Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

[odalrick]

I assume by artifacts that you mean they won't be saved through a reload? Can deal with that.

More along the lines of your freshly loaded game having the same mercenaries from the last game, unless you restart civ. Nothing that can't be avoided by clearing the variable in onLoadGame.

I think you want to regenerate the mercenaries in onBeginGameTurn or possibly onBeginPlayerTurn; and onLoadGame. Then one could regenerate mercenaries by reloading, but that seems like a minor issue. With preserve random seed on it'd be even harder.

If you really want to have the choices persistent that is the purpose of the various getScriptData and setScriptData functions.

 

[Grand Seeker]

I enjoy the way you get commanders and all that, but do we get them too often?
I mean, I often more than I want and need.

 

[WarKirby]

As we know, lizardmen workers are terrible. I'm going to correct this by giving them an autoaquire promotion in jungles, which increases their workrate. I need some quick feedback as to what it should be increased to. What seems a balanced value ?

 

[sylvain5477]

Make it equal to elves on forest ?

 

[WarKirby]

There's the tricky thing. I think they already are equal to elves, but jungle slows down work, making them work slower in jungle than they do anywhere else.

but also, elves are thematically known to be somewhat arrogant, and abhor manual labor (also have -2 CON), which is why their workers are lazy. Lizardmen are just cold blooded and don't do well outside of their natural habitat. I'm thinking it may be a good idea even, to make them better in jungle than other civ's workers are in normal terrain (but still far worse outside of it)

 

[Iceciro]

Set them up to have a workrate of 130 - like Scion workers do - in jungles. That combined with Worker XP should make them the best workers in jungle.

 

[Wodan]

Set them up to have a workrate of 130 - like Scion workers do - in jungles. That combined with Worker XP should make them the best workers in jungle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Kirby, but you're looking for more than that they be the best workers in jungle. You're looking to make them equivalent or better than normal workers on normal terrain. ?

 

[WarKirby]

it seems like those two things are one and the same

also, I'm thinking of stripping their jungle defense bonus. To bring them a bit more pon par with elves. I don't think they need a defense bonus in a feature that already gives a defense bonus. They'll be getting a few other little buffs anyway

Lizardmen will get the Natural Habitat promotion, autoaquired in next patch. It's current effects are:
+1 first strike
+5% heal rate
+10% withdrawal chance
+55 workrate
Immune to Obscured Line ofSight

the +55 Is chosen based on iceciro's recommendation, to increase shapers from 75 to 130. It kind of seems a bit much though, so I'm not sure. Especially with labourers using blood and sacrifice, who become extremely fast.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I'd have two different promotions, one Mazatl and one Cualli... Cualli workers should not be as fast, but higher withdrawal. Mostly because while I doubt slaves would work too hard, you know they'd run at the first sign of trouble.

Also, this may be the first terrain-specific worker promo that does not include invisibility. Not that that's a bad thing... In this case I'm not sure it fits.

 

[WarKirby]

Anyone else think it would be amusing to give Dwarves a PromotionAllows for Giant Slaying?

 

[Valkrionn]

I think it would be fine, actually... Seeing as only Soldiers of Kilmorph can use it currently, and they are Dwarven.

 

[WarKirby]

Personally, I'd have two different promotions, one Mazatl and one Cualli... Cualli workers should not be as fast, but higher withdrawal. Mostly because while I doubt slaves would work too hard, you know they'd run at the first sign of trouble.

Also, this may be the first terrain-specific worker promo that does not include invisibility. Not that that's a bad thing... In this case I'm not sure it fits.

It's not just a worker promo. The first strike/withdrawal bonuses will help all lizardmen.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ah, applies to them all? That works. Although I'll probably still lower the Cualli worker's workrate and up their withdrawal... Can be done in unitinfos though.

 

[WarKirby]

probably a good idea. what values would you think are appropriate ?

they currently have workrate 75 and no inherent withdrawal

shapers also have 75 and no inherent withdrawal, but they get 10% from Homeland

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd say drop them by at least 25, possibly up to 40 so they'd still be faster in jungle than they are now but would be very slow elsewhere, and up to 20% withdrawal?

 

[WarKirby]

actually, I think you're right. -40 workrate.

 

[WarKirby]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Kirby, but you're looking for more than that they be the best workers in jungle. You're looking to make them equivalent or better than normal workers on normal terrain. ?

Oh, I misunderstoof this before. Rereading it:

Yes, you are wrong. The intent is that lizard workers will continue to be worse than normal workers, outside of jungles. In the case of labourers, that's FAR worse. But they will be far better inside of jungles.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sounds good. I'm sure there will be complaints, but the withdrawal makes up for it in my opinion. And it differentiates the civs better.

 

[jrandrew]

Hello All --

One question (possible bug, not sure) and one comment.

I am playing the Dural and have built a College of Theology and the School of the Dreamer (which BTW is awesome, +1 food and +1 commerce on each sea tile, added with a few fish resources and a lighthouse makes a juggernaut of a city.)

I have also adopted OO as my state religion. However, I can't built Stygian Guards because I can't build a Temple of the Overlords. They do appear in the list of possible units to build, but are unselectable because of the lack of a temple.

I understand all of the thematic reasons why the Dural can't build temples. However, for more clarity for players can I suggest one of two two options?:

1. Make Stygian Guards unbuildable for Dural, and list them as such the wiki. In fact, make all units which require a temple unbuildable and indicate as such in the wiki for the Dural.
2. Make the "School of the Dreamer" a replacement for the Temple of the Overlords which would allow Stygian guards to be built. Perhaps make all of the "Schools" replacements for their various temples, as the same issue will occur with other units that require Temples (Ratha, I think, also Crusaders?)

One other issue with the Dural. It would be really nice if the Professor could have a unit upgrade path. None is listed right now. Something not battle-oriented as that doesn't make much sense, perhaps a better "assist" role? The unit could be called a "Professor Emeritus". Or maybe they could upgrade into Tacticians at Level 4 or 6? Or Great people (seems relevant and not too game-breaking given that you have to build a college which is not cheap to get professors and they aren't the easist units in the world to get experience for anyway.)

Thanks!

 

[Breez]

I enjoy the way you get commanders and all that, but do we get them too often?
I mean, I often more than I want and need.

I agree. I end up with 4 or 5 sitting in cities doing nothing after they cast their "Recruit mass Noobs" spell.