Fall Further Plus

Hmm... Maybe Mathematics. I just don't like it being available too early, as these promotions will be powerful. Especially if you're willing to take them all together. :lol:

Then make lesser versions of the promotions first. Similar to high quality bronze and "fine" tack/kit. Better versions unlocked later with more techs.

Tie the really good promos to engineering, machinery, and blasting powder. but give some decent basic stuff early on for khazad/dural/luchuirp et al, to want to go for.
 
1. Goliath is super-cool...but as a hero he runs out of siege promotions VERY quickly. He should be unitcombat Melee...his main purpose is kicking down walls and shooting people in the face, not sieges.

2. A less-powerful, non-heroic version of Goliath with scaled down art would be nice to have as an immortal or berserker UU. Also unitcombat melee, please. Maybe require machinery and medicine?
 
Been busy but I finally got to an "I win" state with Mechanos. It wasn't easy. Due to coaxing by the Luchuirp I DoW'd D'Tesh when he was unreachable on the other side of the map. He proceeded to pick off my workers with his damn invisible scouts. Doviello was a bit of a pain too. Mahala kept churning out mega-promoted assassins and picking off my trebuchets. We got caught in a stalemate on opposite sides of a river, firing arrows, javalins and siege weapons at each other for what must have been like 50 turns. But they fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is to never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is never join a shooting match with the Mechanos! :mwaha:

Siege weapons aside, Mechanos are clearly a late game civ. They can hold out early thanks to their copper but mid game they fall behind. They really need to rush the engineering line to get their powerful units. Once they do, and they've got their hands on some mana and gunpowder, look out.

As far as I can tell the strategy for beating Mechanos is this: Kill them before they can get Musketmen. But you're screwed anyway because then they'll kill you with their Trebuchets and Howitzers. :twitch:

A few bugs:
  • Blimps can free themselves from a cage.
  • Power plants cause +4:yuck: instead of +2:yuck: as mentioned in the civilopedia. It also should be clear that the :yuck: is from the power and not the building and as such a sewer will not affect it. Maybe it is clear and I'm just daft.
  • The free promotion Corned Powder for gunpowder units is bugged. If you mouse over it you'll get a CTD. To fix it remove the reference to UNIT_GALLEASS in line 15884 of units/civ4promotioninfos.xml .
And more than a few observances:
  • I went almost 100 turns on republic and no elections. Bah!
  • I also never got to see a nuclear meltdown. Just what exactly do those do?
  • Sometimes I would create a unit and it would mutate. These mutations are almost always good. I only gotten enervated twice). Behold my strong, light, cannibalizing, blitzing witchhunter (see screenshot.) This is by far the best mutation I have ever received. It was so good I named the unit.
  • I was seeing some masses of seriously promoted archer units. I've enclosed a screenshot. I don't know why this is but I've never seen it before. All the lizardmen have the same promotion and I think the dwarf slingers are promoted the same.
  • Remove the mana from the palace. I agree with VK in that it doesn't make sense. In fact, Mechanos shouldn't be able to use any mana at all. The palace should prevent that (much like how Overcouncil bans some mana.) There are wonders that can be built and events that can happen that don't make sense for a civ that disdains magic. Perhaps they should be given unique resources they can trade to other civs. Wristwatches :) and Stimutacs :health: or something.
  • Refined mana affinity + siege weapons is definitely overpowered. Especially if you are playing with wild mana and there's a lot around. The +100% city attack bonuses for siege engines were designed with them having very low strengths. With just two refined mana a 1 str trebuchet becomes 3 str with a built in +400%. That's a 12 str city attacker, unpromoted, with just construction and KotE. You are only two promotions away from 18 str city attack. It's even more devastating on howitzers who can actually kill units. One of the mechanics (affinity or +100% city attack increments) has to go.
  • Howitzers need a damage cap like all siege weapons. They are tough enough as is with an additional move and blitz. Once I got them, with all the refined mana I had, everything died to their attack and the units hit by collateral damage were at death's door. I brought a howitzer to Combat V Acheron's gate ... 99.9% chance of killing him. I've never even seen odds like that vs. the big bad dragon.
  • Blimps are great. It was nice that they scaled up as I got more refined mana so that I didn't really need any other ships until Ironclads. They act a bit peculiar though. They usually can't move into any land spaces touching a coast. They will try if you aren't careful with your pathing, in which case they will disgorge their contents onto that square. I lost some fragile units this way.
  • Mechanos have two very late game heroes. Goliath is OP in the same way siege engines with affinity are. I do think he should be the endgame unit, much like the dragon for the Mechanos. I'd also add some difficult techs to his requirements though. Arcane Lore and Feral Bond should do it. I should probably take this to the Orbis board but these two very strong heroes seems like a bit much for the civ.
  • Musketmen are incredibly strong. Not only are they tougher than the standard arquebusiers, they can use mithril weapons! Once I had hold of mithril, with the bloodglass master equipment, I was churning out 16 str units. Not even national units. Gunpowder units that ignore building defenses. I understand that this requires two endline techs and two rare resources (one of which can be gained with a wonder) to achieve, so it is something that has to be worked for. But they are, and logically so, the toughest end game units on Erebus. Perhaps too tough.
  • Witch Hunters are strong, I like them. But I think their should be a little more tech involved. Make them require Priesthood as well. With way of the wicked they can start with scourge. With way of the wise they can start with undead slaying.
  • I really don't like having useless tech trees. Mechanos doesn't need either the arcane OR the disciple trees, which is a very powerful advantage. Techpriests I think start way too early at philosophy. Considering how powerful they are, I would even move them to fanaticism. Some additional bonuses could be given to Mechanos if they work these trees. Like perhaps they can't work pre-set mana nodes unless they researched the tech first. And maybe the machine spirit promotion isn't available until sorcery.
  • I don't like Steamworks this late. By the time you get alchemy you already have a very large empire. My Steamworks started giving me 40:science: a turn! But by the time I had alchemy most of the hard work was done and I quickly ran out of techs. This should be put much earlier so you have a choice to wait for more :science: per turn or to start it now where it will have more of an impact.
Phew. Fun civ!

In general I think the refined mana affinity needs work. Even blimps became powerhouses after my 10th mana. Perhaps a promotion that grants all units +10% strength per mana? Even that will be too strong with 10 manas. I think the problem is the civ has an affinity to something that it can turn every mana node into. Maybe my suggestion of requiring the appropriate arcane techs for refining certain nodes might slow this down.

EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it the more the abilities of a techpriest should perhaps be tied to the arcane techs. Repair at Alteration, Entrench at Elementalism, Machine Spirit at Necromancy and you could give them a Reveal type spell at Divination to let them see invisible/stealthed units.
 

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I'd hate to see the affinity go...and I like the idea of lethal siege weapons. The bonus to city attack definitely needs to go away though.


Do the Mechanos have an inquisitor unit? It would be nice if adeptus or techpriests could root out any nasty superstitions that spread to civilized cities.
 
It would be cool if any 4 masters buildings allowed you to build the... err.... master master building. Not sure if that's possible with buildings though.
 
This is what I've got so far for the Siegesmith..... Granted, I just started on it. Didn't take as long as I thought it would. :lol: I might end up making some of these block other ones, but I'm not decided on that yet. I'd rather just have prohibitive costs, but blocking Sighted Shot from the first two might be necessary. I still need buttons, and a few more ideas.... Some of which need to be Mechanos/Khazad exclusive.

This is good but I personally think shots should be exclusive and promotions to the machinery or crew can be stacked. It also seems to me the bonuses for catapults would be very different than those for cannons. Most of those shots (except for heated shot) look like they are just for cannons. I'd differentiate between the two. This will also mean that upgrading will conveniently wipe out your bought promotions like upgrading weaponry does.

Something to keep in mind is blitz isn't terribly useful. Siege weapons can't get mobility promotions and none of themhave more than one move apart from the Mechanos howitzer. And it starts with blitz anyway.

Below are my suggested additions. It might be a few too many, guess I went overboard.

Catapult/Trebuchet shots. These can't be used by cannons. All are exclusive and should be removed if another is aquired.:
  • Plague Infested Shot
    • Requires Evil
    • Requires Sheaim or Infernal or Balseraphs or Legion of D'Tesh civilization
    • 0.50:yuck: in enemy cities within 1 tile
    • +10% ranged damage limit
    • +10% collateral damage limit
    • Passes the Diseased promotion to enemy combatants
    • 30 :gold:
  • Blackblood Shot
    • Requires Scions of Patria civilization
    • Requires a Spirit Mill in the city
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +5% ranged damage limit
    • +10% collateral damage limit
    • Passes the Blackblood promotion to enemy combatants
    • 50 :gold:
  • Flaming Shot
    • +5% bombard per turn
    • +1:strength: Fire
    • +50% forest attack
    • +50% naval units
    • Requires Smelting
    • 50 :gold:
  • Explosive Shot (designed for civs that can't build cannons)
    • +15% bombard per turn
    • +2:strength:
    • +25% city attack
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +5% ranged damage limit
    • Requires Blasting Powder
    • 120 :gold:
General promotions. If they can't be used by cannons/catapults they'll be listed.:
  • Fine Craftsmanship
    • +10% :strength:
    • 0-1 extra first strike
    • Requires Construction
    • Removed if Excellent Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
    • 30:gold:
  • Excellent Craftsmanship
    • +20% :strength:
    • 1 extra first strike
    • Requires Engineering
    • Removed if Fine Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
    • 40:gold:
  • Superior Craftsmanship
    • +30% :strength:
    • 1-2 extra first strikes
    • +20% city attack
    • Requires Mithril Working
    • Removed if Fine Craftsmanship or Excellent Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
    • 80:gold:
  • Artisan Crafted
    • Requires Khazad or Luchuirp or Mechanos civilization
    • +40% :strength:
    • 2-3 extra first strikes
    • +30% city attack
    • +20% defense
    • Requires Machinery
    • Removed if Fine Craftsmanship or Excellent Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship promotion is taken
    • 120:gold:
  • Improved Machinery
    • Requires Khazad civilization
    • +1 range
    • Requires Optics
    • Requires Trebuchet
    • 50:gold:
  • Artillery
    • Requires Khazad civilization
    • +1 range
    • Requires Astronomy
    • Requires Dwarven Cannon
    • 100:gold:
  • Improved Accuracy
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +10% ranged attack limit
    • Requires Optics
    • 80:gold:
  • Deadeye Crew
    • Requires Khazad or Mechanos civilization
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +10% ranged attack limit
    • 1 first strike
    • Requires Guilds
    • 180:gold:
  • Point Defense System
    • Requires Khazad or Mechanos civilization
    • +100% defensive strength
    • +25% hill defense
    • Requires Iron Working
    • 40:gold:
  • Doubletime Team
    • Requires Khazad or Mechanos or Austrin or Hippus civilization
    • +1:move:
    • +1 terrain cost
    • -50%:strength:
    • Requires Horseback Riding
    • 40:gold:
  • Resident Machine Spirit
    • Requires Mechanos civilization
    • Randomly grants the Machine Spirit promotion (20% turn)
    • Requires Arcane Lore
    • 200:gold:
 
1. Goliath is super-cool...but as a hero he runs out of siege promotions VERY quickly. He should be unitcombat Melee...his main purpose is kicking down walls and shooting people in the face, not sieges.

2. A less-powerful, non-heroic version of Goliath with scaled down art would be nice to have as an immortal or berserker UU. Also unitcombat melee, please. Maybe require machinery and medicine?

1. What I'd LIKE to do, is give him the ability to CHOOSE his unitcombat. He can perform like a melee unit, as he does now, OR he can become a siege unit, with his unitcombat and stats changing to reflect it... Should allow him to keep all his promotions, although I'd probably need unique siege promotions for him.

2. They actually have the Grenadier for a berserker, but it could make a good immortal..... Make it directly buildable and non-immortal, but powerful?


Been busy but I finally got to an "I win" state with Mechanos. It wasn't easy. Due to coaxing by the Luchuirp I DoW'd D'Tesh when he was unreachable on the other side of the map. He proceeded to pick off my workers with his damn invisible scouts. Doviello was a bit of a pain too. Mahala kept churning out mega-promoted assassins and picking off my trebuchets. We got caught in a stalemate on opposite sides of a river, firing arrows, javalins and siege weapons at each other for what must have been like 50 turns. But they fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is to never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is never join a shooting match with the Mechanos!

Siege weapons aside, Mechanos are clearly a late game civ. They can hold out early thanks to their copper but mid game they fall behind. They really need to rush the engineering line to get their powerful units. Once they do, and they've got their hands on some mana and gunpowder, look out.

As far as I can tell the strategy for beating Mechanos is this: Kill them before they can get Musketmen. But you're screwed anyway because then they'll kill you with their Trebuchets and Howitzers.

A few bugs:
  • Blimps can free themselves from a cage.
  • Power plants cause +4:yuck: instead of +2 as mentioned in the civilopedia. It also should be clear that the unhealth is from the power and not the building and as such a sewer will not affect it. Maybe it is clear and I'm just daft.
  • The free promotion Corned Powder for gunpowder units is bugged. If you mouse over it you'll get a CTD. To fix it remove the reference to UNIT_GALLEASS in line 15884 of units/civ4promotioninfos.xml .
No idea what's causing the blimp issue, but some of the tags are wonky on it... Need to go through and fix it so it works correctly.

I think it WOULD be clear, if there were a power icon.

I'd actually thought I fixed that...... I specifically remember removing the line when I imported it, but I did end up importing it 3 times before I figured out what was causing a crash.

Going to just reply next to each bullet here....


And more than a few observances:
  • I went almost 100 turns on republic and no elections. Bah! Hmm..... I don't think I did anything there, but I'll check it.
  • I also never got to see a nuclear meltdown. Just what exactly do those do? Honestly, I do not know. That's from Orbis... I do know the odds are very low. Should be about the same as a mine discovering a metal.
  • Sometimes I would create a unit and it would mutate. These mutations are almost always good. I only gotten enervated twice). Behold my strong, light, cannibalizing, blitzing witchhunter (see screenshot.) This is by far the best mutation I have ever received. It was so good I named the unit. Did you have Chaos mana?
  • I was seeing some masses of seriously promoted archer units. I've enclosed a screenshot. I don't know why this is but I've never seen it before. All the lizardmen have the same promotion and I think the dwarf slingers are promoted the same. I think this is because of the way wounded units do not retreat from archers.
  • Remove the mana from the palace. I agree with VK in that it doesn't make sense. In fact, Mechanos shouldn't be able to use any mana at all. The palace should prevent that (much like how Overcouncil bans some mana.) There are wonders that can be built and events that can happen that don't make sense for a civ that disdains magic. Perhaps they should be given unique resources they can trade to other civs. Wristwatches :) and Stimutacs :health: or something. Not sure if I can prevent mana in cities, without making a UU for EVERY building that provides Mana...
  • Refined mana affinity + siege weapons is definitely overpowered. Especially if you are playing with wild mana and there's a lot around. The +100% city attack bonuses for siege engines were designed with them having very low strengths. With just two refined mana a 1 str trebuchet becomes 3 str with a built in +400%. That's a 12 str city attacker, unpromoted, with just construction and KotE. You are only two promotions away from 18 str city attack. It's even more devastating on howitzers who can actually kill units. One of the mechanics (affinity or +100% city attack increments) has to go. Already decided to remove the city attack, and probably nerf the affinity as well.
  • Howitzers need a damage cap like all siege weapons. They are tough enough as is with an additional move and blitz. Once I got them, with all the refined mana I had, everything died to their attack and the units hit by collateral damage were at death's door. I brought a howitzer to Combat V Acheron's gate ... 99.9% chance of killing him. I've never even seen odds like that vs. the big bad dragon. I like them able to directly kill... I might take away all their collateral, and without the city attack they shouldn't be quite as fierce.
  • Blimps are great. It was nice that they scaled up as I got more refined mana so that I didn't really need any other ships until Ironclads. They act a bit peculiar though. They usually can't move into any land spaces touching a coast. They will try if you aren't careful with your pathing, in which case they will disgorge their contents onto that square. I lost some fragile units this way. Yeah, some tag is messed up there, I've noticed that too.. Need to go through it. Already have my Wyrmfisher as a base, so it shouldn't be hard.
  • Mechanos have two very late game heroes. Goliath is OP in the same way siege engines with affinity are. I do think he should be the endgame unit, much like the dragon for the Mechanos. I'd also add some difficult techs to his requirements though. Arcane Lore and Feral Bond should do it. I should probably take this to the Orbis board but these two very strong heroes seems like a bit much for the civ. I agree, I think I'm going to increase his strength and size but make him harder to get.... Might move Feris down in the tech tree as well.
  • Musketmen are incredibly strong. Not only are they tougher than the standard arquebusiers, they can use mithril weapons! Once I had hold of mithril, with the bloodglass master equipment, I was churning out 16 str units. Not even national units. Gunpowder units that ignore building defenses. I understand that this requires two endline techs and two rare resources (one of which can be gained with a wonder) to achieve, so it is something that has to be worked for. But they are, and logically so, the toughest end game units on Erebus. Perhaps too tough. Mithril is a magical metal, so I think I might block their UU's from it entirely. I think they're strong enough without it...
  • Witch Hunters are strong, I like them. But I think their should be a little more tech involved. Make them require Priesthood as well. With way of the wicked they can start with scourge. With way of the wise they can start with undead slaying. Agreed. The tech requirement was from Orbis, and doesn't quite match.
  • I really don't like having useless tech trees. Mechanos doesn't need either the arcane OR the disciple trees, which is a very powerful advantage. Techpriests I think start way too early at philosophy. Considering how powerful they are, I would even move them to fanaticism. Some additional bonuses could be given to Mechanos if they work these trees. Like perhaps they can't work pre-set mana nodes unless they researched the tech first. And maybe the machine spirit promotion isn't available until sorcery. That's.... An excellent idea. I've been trying to figure out how to make the magic tree useful... Didn't want to block it entirely. And I think I'll move Techpriests like you suggested... definitely powerful units.
  • I don't like Steamworks this late. By the time you get alchemy you already have a very large empire. My Steamworks started giving me 40:science: a turn! But by the time I had alchemy most of the hard work was done and I quickly ran out of techs. This should be put much earlier so you have a choice to wait for more :science: per turn or to start it now where it will have more of an impact. Hmm... I think I'll allow it from Construction. What do you think of the Power Plants? Too late?
Phew. Fun civ!

In general I think the refined mana affinity needs work. Even blimps became powerhouses after my 10th mana. Perhaps a promotion that grants all units +10% strength per mana? Even that will be too strong with 10 manas. I think the problem is the civ has an affinity to something that it can turn every mana node into. Maybe my suggestion of requiring the appropriate arcane techs for refining certain nodes might slow this down.

EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it the more the abilities of a techpriest should perhaps be tied to the arcane techs. Repair at Alteration, Entrench at Elementalism, Machine Spirit at Necromancy and you could give them a Reveal type spell at Divination to let them see invisible/stealthed units.

I think I might make a few Dispel clones, for each group of mana. Research Elementalism, you can dispel elemental manas, etc. Should make it more balanced towards the Wild Mana option. I definitely like the idea of tying Techpriest abilities to the mana techs as well, although Machine Spirit seems more divine than arcane.

I'd hate to see the affinity go...and I like the idea of lethal siege weapons. The bonus to city attack definitely needs to go away though.


Do the Mechanos have an inquisitor unit? It would be nice if adeptus or techpriests could root out any nasty superstitions that spread to civilized cities.

I BELIEVE the Techpriest has it, though I might be wrong.... And the city attack bonus is definitely gone. I like the differentiation between the Mechanos and the Khazad there... The Khazad have better traditional siege, while the Mechanos have developped siege towards a different end.

It would be cool if any 4 masters buildings allowed you to build the... err.... master master building. Not sure if that's possible with buildings though.

Should be easy to set up through the 'CanBuild' python check. Not sure though, if I'm moving the Master Siegesmith back I think I'll just leave it requiring all five.

This is good but I personally think shots should be exclusive and promotions to the machinery or crew can be stacked. It also seems to me the bonuses for catapults would be very different than those for cannons. Most of those shots (except for heated shot) look like they are just for cannons. I'd differentiate between the two. This will also mean that upgrading will conveniently wipe out your bought promotions like upgrading weaponry does.

Something to keep in mind is blitz isn't terribly useful. Siege weapons can't get mobility promotions and none of themhave more than one move apart from the Mechanos howitzer. And it starts with blitz anyway.

Below are my suggested additions. It might be a few too many, guess I went overboard.

Catapult/Trebuchet shots. These can't be used by cannons. All are exclusive and should be removed if another is aquired.:
Spoiler :

  • Plague Infested Shot
    • Requires Evil
    • Requires Sheaim or Infernal or Balseraphs or Legion of D'Tesh civilization
    • 0.50:yuck: in enemy cities within 1 tile
    • +10% ranged damage limit
    • +10% collateral damage limit
    • Passes the Diseased promotion to enemy combatants
    • 30 :gold:
  • Blackblood Shot
    • Requires Scions of Patria civilization
    • Requires a Spirit Mill in the city
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +5% ranged damage limit
    • +10% collateral damage limit
    • Passes the Blackblood promotion to enemy combatants
    • 50 :gold:
  • Flaming Shot
    • +5% bombard per turn
    • +1:strength: Fire
    • +50% forest attack
    • +50% naval units
    • Requires Smelting
    • 50 :gold:
  • Explosive Shot (designed for civs that can't build cannons)
    • +15% bombard per turn
    • +2:strength:
    • +25% city attack
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +5% ranged damage limit
    • Requires Blasting Powder
    • 120 :gold:
General promotions. If they can't be used by cannons/catapults they'll be listed.:
  • Fine Craftsmanship
    • +10% :strength:
    • 0-1 extra first strike
    • Requires Construction
    • Removed if Excellent Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
    • 30:gold:
  • Excellent Craftsmanship
    • +20% :strength:
    • 1 extra first strike
    • Requires Engineering
    • Removed if Fine Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
    • 40:gold:
  • Superior Craftsmanship
    • +30% :strength:
    • 1-2 extra first strikes
    • +20% city attack
    • Requires Mithril Working
    • Removed if Fine Craftsmanship or Excellent Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
    • 80:gold:
  • Artisan Crafted
    • Requires Khazad or Luchuirp or Mechanos civilization
    • +40% :strength:
    • 2-3 extra first strikes
    • +30% city attack
    • +20% defense
    • Requires Machinery
    • Removed if Fine Craftsmanship or Excellent Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship promotion is taken
    • 120:gold:
  • Improved Machinery
    • Requires Khazad civilization
    • +1 range
    • Requires Optics
    • Requires Trebuchet
    • 50:gold:
  • Artillery
    • Requires Khazad civilization
    • +1 range
    • Requires Astronomy
    • Requires Dwarven Cannon
    • 100:gold:
  • Improved Accuracy
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +10% ranged attack limit
    • Requires Optics
    • 80:gold:
  • Deadeye Crew
    • Requires Khazad or Mechanos civilization
    • +1 ranged attack
    • +10% ranged attack limit
    • 1 first strike
    • Requires Guilds
    • 180:gold:
  • Point Defense System
    • Requires Khazad or Mechanos civilization
    • +100% defensive strength
    • +25% hill defense
    • Requires Iron Working
    • 40:gold:
  • Doubletime Team
    • Requires Khazad or Mechanos or Austrin or Hippus civilization
    • +1:move:
    • +1 terrain cost
    • -50%:strength:
    • Requires Horseback Riding
    • 40:gold:
  • Resident Machine Spirit
    • Requires Mechanos civilization
    • Randomly grants the Machine Spirit promotion (20% turn)
    • Requires Arcane Lore
    • 200:gold:


I'm speechless. That is an AMAZING list. And I like your idea about the Shot types, it lets me force you to repeatedly buy them without it being too gamey. :goodjob:
 
That's actually exactly what I had in mind. :lol: Sort of a 'crew' promotion he can take at any time.... Or maybe make it a spell, so I can create a delay of a turn or two? Should take a little time for him to shift gears. :lol:

It's just too bad you can't specify multiple unitcombats.... Horse Archers should be Mounted AND Archer, for example.
 
1. What I'd LIKE to do, is give him the ability to CHOOSE his unitcombat. He can perform like a melee unit, as he does now, OR he can become a siege unit, with his unitcombat and stats changing to reflect it... Should allow him to keep all his promotions, although I'd probably need unique siege promotions for him.

I like this idea a lot. Goliath could plant his feet and become a city bombarding ranged damage dealing siege machine. Or he could just charge and kill everything in his path. For some reason the phrase "Autobots transform and roll out." sticks in my head. It's a good thing.

2. They actually have the Grenadier for a berserker, but it could make a good immortal..... Make it directly buildable and non-immortal, but powerful?

It makes sense to me that a civ that forsakes all the gods and all magic should be deprived of immortality. It's quite fitting. In fact, I think it should be permanent +4:mad: in all cities if you have the gall to research Divine Essence as a Mechanos when there are future techs to be had! A hefty price to pay for Blood of the Phoenix. Oh yeah, that reminds me. There should probably be a penalty for completing rituals too. Civ-wide anarchy for some variable amount of turns. Your people will not be happy if you say one thing and do another. Of course I'm sure the AI will cripple themselves with this.

I definitely like the idea of tying Techpriest abilities to the mana techs as well, although Machine Spirit seems more divine than arcane.

I agree. I'm actually quite comfortable at stopping the important techs right before sorcery. Arcane Lore and Pass Through the Ether have enough good stuff in them that any civ can benefit, so I think it would be nice if Mechanos had to pay for a worthless tech before they could get the crown of Akharen and the Nexus. The more I played Mechanos the more I was reminded of Warhammer 40k. Fanaticism seems appropriate for machine spirit.

Okay, this isn't quoting right so I'm going to try not to be messy. My response in RED.
Spoiler :
* I also never got to see a nuclear meltdown. Just what exactly do those do? Honestly, I do not know. That's from Orbis... I do know the odds are very low. Should be about the same as a mine discovering a metal. Shows how long it's been since I've played plain ol' Civ4. I think it's a BtS event for when you have a nuclear power plant. I'll check/post in the Orbis forum, it's definitely something that should be in the civilopedia. And that reminds me, I discovered four resources in my game. As a baseline comparison, the most I've ever found until this game was two ... and that happened once. Most games I find zero, and I'm lucky if I find one. That's even with lots of earth mana. I guess having over ten mana types that give you additional chances to find new resources might do that. Maybe that needs to be reduced?
* Sometimes I would create a unit and it would mutate. These mutations are almost always good. I only gotten enervated twice). Behold my strong, light, cannibalizing, blitzing witchhunter (see screenshot.) This is by far the best mutation I have ever received. It was so good I named the unit. Did you have Chaos mana? Valki please! I checked to make sure I didn't have anything that might mutate. You can check the screenshot if you don't believe I didn't have chaos mana. Looking back it happened three times. Apart from Lazarus my uber Witch Hunter I also got two mutated musketmen, who apart from their enervated promotion had quite good mutations as well. Hmm... would be kinda cool if Power Plants could mutate units at maybe 1/10th the rate that Chaos mana does.
* Remove the mana from the palace. I agree with VK in that it doesn't make sense. In fact, Mechanos shouldn't be able to use any mana at all. The palace should prevent that (much like how Overcouncil bans some mana.) There are wonders that can be built and events that can happen that don't make sense for a civ that disdains magic. Perhaps they should be given unique resources they can trade to other civs. Wristwatches :) and Stimutacs :health: or something. Not sure if I can prevent mana in cities, without making a UU for EVERY building that provides Mana... One thing that happened in nearly all of the games I started was I got the event that would let me create a +Fire affinity staff item if I had enchantment mana. I was kinda hoping that Xienwolf would step in here and say "Oh ho! Yes you can!" In compromise I was suggesting that the Mechanos palace could have built in multiple resources that could be used to trade. Perhaps it's more trouble than it's worth.
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* Howitzers need a damage cap like all siege weapons. They are tough enough as is with an additional move and blitz. Once I got them, with all the refined mana I had, everything died to their attack and the units hit by collateral damage were at death's door. I brought a howitzer to Combat V Acheron's gate ... 99.9% chance of killing him. I've never even seen odds like that vs. the big bad dragon. I like them able to directly kill... I might take away all their collateral, and without the city attack they shouldn't be quite as fierce. I didn't notice that cannons also have the ability to directly kill, so I'm content leaving that in so long as their other issues are addressed.
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* Musketmen are incredibly strong. Not only are they tougher than the standard arquebusiers, they can use mithril weapons! Once I had hold of mithril, with the bloodglass master equipment, I was churning out 16 str units. Not even national units. Gunpowder units that ignore building defenses. I understand that this requires two endline techs and two rare resources (one of which can be gained with a wonder) to achieve, so it is something that has to be worked for. But they are, and logically so, the toughest end game units on Erebus. Perhaps too tough. Mithril is a magical metal, so I think I might block their UU's from it entirely. I think they're strong enough without it... I agree. Bloodglass and Flamethrowers is enough of a reason to tech mithril anyway.
* Witch Hunters are strong, I like them. But I think their should be a little more tech involved. Make them require Priesthood as well. With way of the wicked they can start with scourge. With way of the wise they can start with undead slaying. Agreed. The tech requirement was from Orbis, and doesn't quite match. Heh, don't think I ever got them in my Orbis games. After thinking about it, I think Way of the Wise/Wicked should allow for Mechanos civ-specific master promotions for recon units. Scourge and Undead Slaying promotions for a relatively cheap fee.
* I really don't like having useless tech trees. Mechanos doesn't need either the arcane OR the disciple trees, which is a very powerful advantage. Techpriests I think start way too early at philosophy. Considering how powerful they are, I would even move them to fanaticism. Some additional bonuses could be given to Mechanos if they work these trees. Like perhaps they can't work pre-set mana nodes unless they researched the tech first. And maybe the machine spirit promotion isn't available until sorcery. That's.... An excellent idea. I've been trying to figure out how to make the magic tree useful... Didn't want to block it entirely. And I think I'll move Techpriests like you suggested... definitely powerful units. What irked me was Mechanos got both machine spirit (which is really nice) and Vitalize (which is ... uh, a T3 nature spell) with Philosophy. Both of these have to be delayed. The more I think about it, vitalize might have to be somewhere in the useless part of a tech tree, like Commune with Nature. Machine Spirit could then be part of Alteration (which, conveniently, is what Great Sages can lightbulb.)
* I don't like Steamworks this late. By the time you get alchemy you already have a very large empire. My Steamworks started giving me 40 a turn! But by the time I had alchemy most of the hard work was done and I quickly ran out of techs. This should be put much earlier so you have a choice to wait for more per turn or to start it now where it will have more of an impact. Hmm... I think I'll allow it from Construction. What do you think of the Power Plants? Too late? As is, Mechanos has a ludicrously good synergy with the Guild of Hammers. New cities have a free factory, which lets them turn a citizen into an engineer with +1:hammers:. Four hammers is more than you'll get off of almost any plot, so take it. Use it to build a power plant. Once done you get a free (four hammer) engineer plus another +50%:hammers:. And power plants don't take long to build. 180:hammers: is not enough, I'd double that. 400:hammers: for a power plant. Yes it was a pain getting them late, but once I did production became irrelevant. +50%:hammers: is equivalent to God King in any city it's built. I definitely think power plants should come later.
Personally I think the Steam tech needs to return. Maybe it should require construction and be built off of Philosophy, only by the Mechanos. It would allow refineries and their worldspell, and be required for pretty much every UU and UB. Then with, say, Machinery, they've perfected their steam engines into devices that can give them power and allow them to create the Power Plant UB. As for refineries, they certainly became quite fertile plots. I'm all for techs improving plot yields, but concealing them in undesirable techs is a better way to achieve this I think.

Regarding the siege promotions, glad you like them. Was too busy to post the last few days and I guess the ideas just kinda built up. Obviously they need to be tested but I was leaning towards non-standard siege promotions. Especially promotions that might make them survive encounters with those damned assassins. Plus I missed my Balseraphs catapulting cows into their hapless foes.

Oh that reminds me. How come in my Mechanos game my witch hunters would still try to kill fully healed champions when 0.0str catapults were available? At the same time my trebuchets were being consistently sabotaged by Doviello assassins? I'd like it if marksmen couldn't target siege weapons unless they had a "sabateur" promotion, and then they could only attack once per turn.
 
I ain't quoting all that. :)


1. Mechanos units are definitely mutating. I assumed it was a side-effect of refined mana, which has flavor text about radiation sickness. I see it as a feature, not a bug. :)

2. I really, really hate making the Mechanos research useless techs to get access to scattered goodies. Either sprinkle benefits for them at every tech or give them a unique line to research. Allowing them to build temples to the machine spirit and spread the cult like a religion would make the priesthood line useful, for example....

3. Moving vitalize for them is a bad idea, IMO. That is the only way they have to terraform. If you move it too high up the tree you doom them if they get a mediocre/bad start.

4. The melee line for them feels totally wrong. Bare-chested guys w/clubs, lunatics w/axes, medieval champions with sword and board....blechh. Game mechanics make it optimal to use a stack of the traditional melee units along with the nasty siege units...but I feel dirty doing it.

If it was up to me I'd replace warriors with a 2 power disciple unit (Machine cult acolyte?). Allow bronze, upgrade to archer, adeptus, or horseman. Give bonus to city defense so you don't die to orc rush. Replace axeman and champions with combat robots, cyborg thralls....anything non-medieval.

On that note...archers of all sorts need to go away, at least in terms of art. Guns all around.

5. Like the changes proposed to Goliath. Mini-Goliaths at Immortal would be perfect. Not sure immortality is necessarily a bad thing...can simulate rebuilding the thing.
 
Going to use this post to track my progress, I've edited it with enough updates. :lol:

I think I'm going to allow Goliath to change unitcombats, with a delay of a turn or two...

Just wanted to say that the Master building is coming along nicely, after which I'll be making most of the balance changes that have been suggested. Should be done by friday, if not, sometime this weekend. :lol:

Edit: The Shot promotions are done, and all overwrite each other. Just need to put in the general promotions.... :goodjob:

Edit2: Jesus. Just spent half an hour trying to figure out why some of the shot promotions weren't working, when I realized they required gunpowder..... :wallbash:

Edit3: All the promotions are done. Testing them now.

Edit4: They're all working perfectly..... Although the Howitzer, with it's 2 range, combined with Sighted Shot and it's +1 range, is rather nasty. :eek: Gonna go back to the initial promotions, and fix them up to be valid trade-offs rather than entirely good. All the Shot promotions should be like that.

Edit5: Blimp is now working correctly.
 
I just realized I still haven't tested your Mechanos. I guess I'm late :lol: My apologies, I didn't find much time to play this days :(

Oh, you're merging Monstruous Creatures?! Damn, your modmod is bigger and bigger every day. You silly modder! :crazyeye:
 
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