Fall Further Plus

[Rutee]

Why is that? Erebus is a harsh world

Off the top of my head, an early founder may be relatively easily gipped out of it by a new adopter, right? Also would the hero then go on to rejoin if someone popped it, then changed religions?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Why is that? Erebus is a harsh world

Becouse all religions give at least 1 reliably avalable hero.
Without it this one would be UP.

And becouse there are already to many units that I newer tend to see in my games.

 

[Opera]

Off the top of my head, an early founder may be relatively easily gipped out of it by a new adopter, right? Also would the hero then go on to rejoin if someone popped it, then changed religions?

Yes and yes. This way, the Mechanos won't always have the benefit of the hero. They could still pop her but that would not be a given. I don't see why they would have to have it absolutely just because they founded the religion first. A bit of randomness is good I think

 

[Opera]

Becouse all religions give at least 1 reliably avalable hero.
Without it this one would be UP.

And becouse there are already to many units that I newer tend to see in my games.

The hero isn't necessarily the core of a religion.

But if really the idea doesn't appeal anyone, one alternative would be to make the Ordo Machinarum hero unbuildable by the Mechanos.

 

[Rutee]

I agree that the Ordo isn't particularly weaker without a reliable hero, because the heroes are only reliable if you're an early adopter/founder, and if you shoot for them at any rate.

It's a little hard to track everything that's been said about the Machine folks from here. Where does the discussion really /start/?

 

[Opera]

I agree that the Ordo isn't particularly weaker without a reliable hero, because the heroes are only reliable if you're an early adopter/founder, and if you shoot for them at any rate.

It's a little hard to track everything that's been said about the Machine folks from here. Where does the discussion really /start/?

From page 9, post 173 and onwards. Eight pages of discussion about a feature not even released, more than a half of the thread...

 

[Rutee]

From page 9, post 173 and onwards. Eight pages of discussion about a feature not even released, more than a half of the thread...

Ah, I'm starting to catch up now. I thought a giant kitchen sink of random grab bags had gone too long without a 40k civ appearing. Such a ubiquitous set a flavor.

 

[Quetz]

Steam Tank seems a little odd to me too, but guess I am thinking of the one from Age of Wonders (where it was the uber dwarf unit, that was a killer transport as well as a slayer of men)

Also where the dwarves-in-hot-air-balloons thing came from.

To rip off one more from that game, and totally off the topic of this thread.. how bout a flying UU for the Orcs? DOOM BATS! relatively high tech, a swarm of nasty bats. Maybe as a rebasable air unit a'la vanilla civ fighters, that can intercept blimps/etc, or as a normal unit, a fast flyer with low build cost, low (but poison) strength, blitz, and animal... maybe a beastmaster replacement? Unless one of the ogres is in there, can't remember.

 

[civ_king]

Hamsters should ride Pudús (1 foot tall deer )

 

[Valkrionn]

If you add a hero, it should be something unavailable to the Mechanos, and designed/balanced as such. Otherwise it will simply be another Mechanos hero, and if you're going to make one of those it should just be Mechanos specific anyway so they don't have to hoard their religion to be sure they get it.
EDIT: and in the time it took me to say that, you already sort of addressed that point
EDIT2:

Total of 3? What changed? They have Feris, Goliath, and Boris already, and I thought you mentioned a potential zeppelin hero somewhere. That plus a religious hero would make 5.

I didn't bring in Boris, actually. Wasn't even aware he was Mechanos only.... And the Zeppelin hero was actually a potential religious hero.

Why not make the religion avalable to all, but with special bonuses for the mech?
That is what FOL is at the moment but for the elves.

Mostly because of it's method of spreading. I've already redone the weighting so anyone CAN follow it, it's just highly unlikely, but it's only foundable by the Mechanos, and can't be spread until writing even then, unless they get a very early Great Engineer.

That isn't a bad idea. Other civs can power up the steam tank and enjoy the tile bonuses from refined mana. The restricted spread will probably prevent mass-adoption foolishness. The Mechanos obviously have more uses for the mana, so all is well.

In other playtesting news...other civs are building refineries. The infernals in my current game have a few of them.

Honestly, the refined mana bonuses would probably be a good thing for the AI. They don't know how to use mana very well anyway yet.

Just make it so the Ordo Machinarum's hero isn't buildable. She (or he) would only be acquired through an event that would happen in evey game (or not?) but with a little weight and very harsh requirements.

Bad idea, realy bad idea.

I kind of agree, actually, if just because I really dislike the event units... they never show up in my games.

The steam tank sounds a little odd.

I think something like that should at least require Engineering + Bronze working. Mathematics seems too early for a tank.

I'd also suggest making it more powerful with iron working, mithril working, and machinery. though autoaquire promotions based on the unitclass and tech prereq. Probably should require it to visit a city for upgrading.

I think the no ranged damage limit is a bit overpowered, to start with. It would be quite reasonable once it's made of mithril and has advanced machinery, but it should have a limit to start off. Maybe 50% or so. That's a hell of a lot more than most archers.

I like the upgrade idea. The main reason I'm using the steam tank, is both the Mechanos and the Khazad already used it, and it fit the religion. I'm thinking of adding an earlier siege unit, and moving the siege cannon back to be the second UU for the religion.

The hero isn't necessarily the core of a religion.

But if really the idea doesn't appeal anyone, one alternative would be to make the Ordo Machinarum hero unbuildable by the Mechanos.

I think the Hero might actually just be a Techpriest, unbuildable by the Mechanos, and then I'll give the Mechanos the Zeppelin as a hero. Gives them 3, which is average with a religion. It'll also give one other civ a fullpowered, or stronger, techpriest.

It's a little hard to track everything that's been said about the Machine folks from here. Where does the discussion really /start/?

Yeah, it's gone on for a while.

Steam Tank seems a little odd to me too, but guess I am thinking of the one from Age of Wonders (where it was the uber dwarf unit, that was a killer transport as well as a slayer of men)

Also where the dwarves-in-hot-air-balloons thing came from.

To rip off one more from that game, and totally off the topic of this thread.. how bout a flying UU for the Orcs? DOOM BATS! relatively high tech, a swarm of nasty bats. Maybe as a rebasable air unit a'la vanilla civ fighters, that can intercept blimps/etc, or as a normal unit, a fast flyer with low build cost, low (but poison) strength, blitz, and animal... maybe a beastmaster replacement? Unless one of the ogres is in there, can't remember.

I don't think the Orcs would really have much affinity for them. Besides, why should Orcs get bats when there are vampires in the game?

 

[Opera]

It's possible to make an event that will appear in every game. Just because current event heroes aren't that common doesn't mean that the event hero I'm talking about will be uncommon. Anyway, enough of this, one here unbuildable for the Mechanos is fine for me

 

[PPQ_Purple]

What about making the steam tank a Clockwork Tank?
And than adding a late game version of it that it upgrades to named Steam Tank.

 

[Rutee]

Was the Siege thing really figured out? 'cause, IMO, a civ that says "Magic Et Domus" really needs a high strength set of siege weapons that don't have city attack. Siege becomes a different animal for them, and needs to be treated as such. It's both field and city stack breakers; If it's to be effective in the field, its' going to have a strength high enough that piling city assault bonuses as they are in FF makes them absolutely killer.

I had strength 1 Trebs in FF absolutely demolish SoDs in a city, in small numbers, particularly once promoted. There is absolutely no reason to have a high Str. unit with those same bonuses. Yes, I also mean the Khazad need something similar. Maybe not necessarily as powerful, but a field stack breaker would be nice

You're probably going to need to overhaul siege weapon promos again, if you really want to do this. Currently they're set up as almost nothing BUT City stack breakers, not really a full line of promos.

 

[Valkrionn]

The Mechanos Siege weapons have NO natural city attack bonuses, and have more strength. Even better, they have refined mana affinity. They can and will be VERY useful in the field. The Siege Tank is the same way. It's actually the main reason I switched them from sharing the trebuchet with the Khazad, to the organ gun.

What about making the steam tank a Clockwork Tank?
And than adding a late game version of it that it upgrades to named Steam Tank.

That's pretty close to what I was thinking.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The entire tank line could in fact be used as a replacement for cavalery. Don't you think?

 

[Rutee]

The Mechanos Siege weapons have NO natural city attack bonuses, and have more strength. Even better, they have refined mana affinity. They can and will be VERY useful in the field. The Siege Tank is the same way. It's actually the main reason I switched them from sharing the trebuchet with the Khazad, to the organ gun..

If they're Siege (the Unit Class), you need to figure out a different set of unit promotions for Siege. FF's Siege romotions are basically "Disposable city breakers", as they all focus on +100% each anti-city promotions.

Honestly, since you're expanding the unit line, they can stand an expansion anyway, right?

 

[Valkrionn]

Already planning on it, actually. Just want to get everything else set up first.... I'm probably just going to have a completely separate line of promotions for Mechanos siege. They'll have an effect promo barring the old promotions, that is required for the new ones, so the two lines will be completely separate. Pretty easy to do, thanks to Xienwolf.


Alright, now that I have the files, expect some changes to the Bannor, who were in need of a good fix... thank Vermicious Knid for his work. Basically, it makes them xenophobic crusaders... Which they are.

New Trait: Tempered -

Replaces Guardsman. Grants the Tempered promotion to all units.

​

New/Changed Promotions:

Tempered -
​

• Immune to Fear
• 25% Magic Resistance
• 25% Unholy, Death, and Fire resistance

Inquisitor -

• Requires Channeling 2 OR Tempered.

Perfect Sight -

• Requires Sentry 2 OR Tempered

Guardsman -

• Requires Combat 4 OR Tempered

Orc Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered

Giant Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered

Elf Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Elves and Dark Elves

Dwarf Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Dwarves

Lizard Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Lizards

Centaur Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Centaurs

Frostling Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Frostlings

Elemental Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Elementals

Golem Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Golems

Witch Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs any unit with Channeling 1

Vampire Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Vampire

Demon Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Demons

Undead Slaying -

• Requires Combat 2 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Undead

Dragon Slaying -

• Requires Combat 5 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Dragons

Divine Rivalry -

• Requires Combat 5 AND Tempered
• 40% vs Avatars

​

Spells:

Mounted Infantry-

• Available to Champion, Paladin, Eidolon, Berserker, Immortal, Phalanx, Donal, Crusader
• Requires unit to be in a city with a Stable.
• Costs 200
• Adds effect promo to unit, with the following effects:
  • Pillage on Move
  • No Defense Bonus
  • Immune to First Strikes
  • +2 :movement:
  • 25% Withdrawal
  • +1-2 first strikes
  • -25% City Attack
  • Artstyle changed to Bannor Knight

 

[WarKirby]

That's a biiig list of promotions. Looks like it'll get awfully messy. More interface clutter isn't something we need, and I think a lot of it is unnecessary

I don't think things like dwarf slaying are very nice though. Dwarves aren't much different from small humans, there shouldn't be special tactics to gain super bonuses against them. Same with elves, lizards. These just seem a bit overpowering. It's like shock, but with ZERO tactical thought required. If you're going to war with ljosalfar, putting elf slaying on every unit is an instant no-brainer. any intelligent thought in promotion choices goes out of the window. Likewize against Khazad, or Mazatl/Cualli.

Also, frostling slaying seems like a waste of a promotion. I don't think there's really any point in adding that.
Centaur slaying seems silly too. Fighting a centaur is functionally similar to fighting a man on Horseback, and I think the Formation promotion covers that quite well. Besides that, if you add it, you allow +80% vs centaurs with 2 promotions, which severely devalues them.

Some of the minority group ones seem ok.
Vampire/golem are all quite useful in certain circumstances, without being horribly overpowering.

Witch slaying is too much. It should only target UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT, not anything with channeling I. Tons of non arcane heroes have channeling, almost any disciple unit, and quite a few units that are neither. The Calabim's advantage is all but going to disappear if a random bannor guy can take vampire+witch slaying+shock, get +120% against a vampire before even taking combat I, and slaughter hordes of vampires.

Also I really don't like the idea of restricting Demon slaying and undead slaying only to bannor though. The way to strengthen them is not to weaken everyone else

In general, I'd also advise toning down a few of the bonuses, to maybe 25-30%. 40% is a bit much, and where

Also, Mounted infantry. Great idea, but not for bannor. That should be a Hippus thing. By now, the hippus are rather more in need of help than bannor, I would say.


Giving them easy access to Perfect Sight seems a bit much, too. I think a few extra promos are nice, but you've gone a bit overboard here. Things like new UUs would be a nicer way to distinguish them, I think. Also, I personally liked the Guardsman trait. The city defence bonus it gives made unit stacking in cities quite beneficial.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't really have a problem adding promotions, though you're right, an extra 40% might be too high. 25% sounds more reasonable... I'll ask Vermicious about it. Already changed a few things. Might also want to make each Slaying promotion exclude all others..... Then you have to choose which way to train your unit.

You're completely right about the Centaur slaying, with formation it's too much. Completely eliminates the one advantage Kurios have... Need to remove that.

I also agree on Witchslaying for the most part.. Mostly because as it stands it would also affect all priests, and I don't like that much for a crusading civ. They could easily be fighting priests of their own religion.

Demon/Undead are not restricted, sorry if it appeared that way. Was copying/pasting from all the others. I'll basically be making a second version of each.

I actually like the mounted idea. The Bannor are a civilization of crusaders and knights. Personally, if I were to do anything to the Hippus, it would involve making more of their units permanently mounted, not charging them to become mounted.

And they still get Guardsman with their first promotion if they want, just not immediately.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nice, very very nice! that brings back the good ol' slayer promotions and gives the Bannor something fun and flavourful.