Fall Further Plus

[Rutee]

Tempered is too low down the list. Fear is a very high level function. A newbie simply shouldn't get immunity to it instantly.

 

[Valkrionn]

Courage is a lvl 1 spell, that only requires an adept for the Bannor anyway. I don't see it as an issue.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Thanks for the feedback folks.

My reasoning on the slayer promotions was that undead slaying already exists and was easy to acquire...and the scions don't seem any less viable because of it. We are talking about wasting a promotion here...you are trading +20% against EVERYBODY for double that promo against a much narrower subset. It is actually weaker than taking shock, for example.

Stacking promos might be a concern...although the worst-case scenario of 3 slayer promos vs. a vampire is still only a +120% bonus instead of the +60% taking combat 1-3...and what are you gonna do with those units after the war with the calabim is over?

Interface clutter...only happens when picking promotions. No worse than selecting promotions for an adept, really.

As for the horse thing...try it before judging it. It is pretty fun, I promise.

 

[Valkrionn]

Running an autoplay of the Mechanos right now.... Noticed a few things haha. Need to block all the religious techs for the Mechanos, as well as figuring out a graphical bug...... Where do I set the icon for units born with a religion?

 

[Quetz]

As for the horse thing...try it before judging it. It is pretty fun, I promise.

It does look fun, and also quite overpowered. Does Formation work against units that have gained this promotion?

The auto-raze on top of everything else seems to be overkill. It looks like "pay 200g for a super-unit". What is the point of having a mounted line with this again...?

 

[Rutee]

Courage is a lvl 1 spell, that only requires an adept for the Bannor anyway. I don't see it as an issue.

It's the difference between requiring KotE, a specific resource, and a mage, and basically nothing. And bear in mind that Tempered also adds /additional/ resistances, and is significantly more powerful then Courage (Unless the -10% bad lairs is supposed to actually be that good).

And I believe I've made it clear in the past, but I strongly dislike hard counters; Tempered for the Mechanos ONLY seems fine (As they can't pick up courage elsewhere), but beyond that, it's just too powerful against that.

Then again, you're replacing one hard counter (Assassins) with another (Fear), so I guess there's no clean solution from my standpoint.

 

[WarKirby]

Thanks for the feedback folks.

My reasoning on the slayer promotions was that undead slaying already exists and was easy to acquire...and the scions don't seem any less viable because of it. We are talking about wasting a promotion here...you are trading +20% against EVERYBODY for double that promo against a much narrower subset. It is actually weaker than taking shock, for example.

I have to disagree here. If you're against ljosalfar or svartalfar, elf slaying would be FAR more powerful than taking cover or shock. Because it would affect ALL of your enemy's units rather than just a subset of them. granted, it won't work against other enemies, but That's hardly an issue, because with all the elf slaying you'll be doing, you'll rack up a ton of xp that can be spent on more general promotions.

and what are you gonna do with those units after the war with the calabim is over?

Personally? I'd delete them and make more. Playing as Sabathiel, it's quite easy to crank out new units at lv4, in one turn, in any major city. One recent bannor game, I put order temples, gallows, and command posts everywhere. Any city with a couple of hills could make a new lv4 champion in 1-2 turns. Which in most cases, was actually faster than transporting my existing army back from the frontline to wage war elsewhere.

Theocracy + crusade + military State + conquest

The above civic/building combination grants +80% military production, and 6 free xp for new units, as well as near zero maintenance for a colossal army. From there, you either get Form of the Titan, or run Apprenticeship instead of military state, to get the requisite 7.5 xp to make new units start at lv4. Then with the above system, you can crank out units with Combat I & II plus "x Slaying" of your choice.


My general point here, thoughm is that these promotions can't be countered. With shock, you can attack with archers, or horsemen. But when you're ljosalfar, you can't just not attack with elves. You don't HAVE any non elves. Unless you built the pact of the nilhorn.

Also, why does it make sense at all. What's so different about humans, elves, dwarves, lizards, orcs, that isn't simply covered in basic combat training. Sure elves have a dextrous, agile style. but so do human assasins. Dwarves may be a bit slow and clumsy, but so are bannor champions in their 15 foot thick armour.

Orc slaying for the chislev isn't too bad, because it's the only one they have. It makes them highly effective against one race naturally. But with this plan for the bannor, it will make them ridiculously effective against anything. like an overpowered swiss army knife.

Things like vampire slaying are logical. You carry crosses, garlic, wooden stakes, silver weapons, sun magic, etc. Specialised equipment for the job.

Personally, I'd say.

1. No orc/elf/dwarf/lizard slaying. Or anything else that targets the entire population of a civ.
2. Reduce the bonus of all other "x slaying" abilities to 30%

 

[ICanHasName?]

First off, I haven't played the Bannor in a while, but the last time I did the entire world basically declared war on me one after the other, and I slaughtered all of them with Crusade after some epic battles. This was on a Pangea map so I didn't just hide in a fort either. They definatly need some more flavor and some more fun, but I'm not sure they need much more power.

I agree that +40% vs everything a target oponent owns is uncounterable and has no real strategy. Considering the one big mechanic the bannor have now is the ability to use crusade to churn out unlimited units all the time forever, there really is no downside. Once the ljosfar die the elf slayers become cannon fodder to protect your new orc slayers, or whatever. Even the stock undead slaying is kindof iffy, I don't really think the Scions/Dteshis/str 3 skellies need a hard counter any more then the orcs do, plus the Bannor already have easy access to holy damage which the undead don't like. Demon slaying is obviously good though, and dragon slaying is kindof neat, at least until somone makes a civ of friendly mini dragons

I really like that mounted infantry upgrade though. That will give the Bannor a cool solution to fast units and * a mounted elite for their army.

Easier access to guardsmen and magic resist and stuff makes sense. Whatever you do about the X-slaying promotions I would recommended expanding that to include easy access to march and the defensive strike promotions and whatever else has high requirements, to represent advanced training that the Bannorian army presumably gets.

*Edit: You are correct Quetz, I guess I meant to say "Destroy everything in sight", but now that I think about it pilliaging is kindof the opposite of what they stand for. Whatever our opinions of the Bannor crusaders they would focus more on religicide or conquest then pilliaging gold and chasing around civilians.

 

[Quetz]

I am glad to see the 'slaying' promos back. Should mention that. Kirby does have some good points though, perhaps 40% is too much.

I know history says one thing and idealism another, but I really don't see how Crusaders were supposed to be focused on pillage, burning, and rapine... I thought it was kind of the opposite (@ above post.)

 

[WarKirby]

I do kind of feel the same about undead slaying. It's worth noting that Scions and Dtesh weren't around when kael added that. It was originally intended as a powerful counter to a small group of summoned units, and diseased corpses. There were no whole undead civs.

Not so sure about demon slaying, though. I think it's a bit overpowered in FFH, but in FF, with Combat IV demons popping out of the ground regularly, it's kind of necessary for it to be as powerful as it is.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

It does look fun, and also quite overpowered. Does Formation work against units that have gained this promotion?

The auto-raze on top of everything else seems to be overkill. It looks like "pay 200g for a super-unit". What is the point of having a mounted line with this again...?

It would be easy to make them unitcombat mounted while mounted...just one more line of xml. I've wavered on it, honestly. It would allow them access to mounted line promotions, equipment, etc... Not sure if the vulnerability to Formation justifies all that.

Auto-raze...I was going with a more historical view of a crusading force of fanatics on horseback. I generally prefer NOT to pillage improvements I'm about to own...so I saw that as a nerf. Easy to remove if the general consensus is against it.

 

[Valkrionn]

It would be easy to make them unitcombat mounted while mounted...just one more line of xml. I've wavered on it, honestly. It would allow them access to mounted line promotions, equipment, etc... Not sure if the vulnerability to Formation justifies all that.

Auto-raze...I was going with a more historical view of a crusading force of fanatics on horseback. I generally prefer NOT to pillage improvements I'm about to own...so I saw that as a nerf. Easy to remove if the general consensus is against it.

You can either add one line to the promotion to make them unitcombat mounted, OR you can add one line to both Formation promos to give it a 40% bonus vs the promotion, like the Slayer promos. The first allows them mounted promotions and equipment, the second does not..... I think I prefer the second, personally.

I have the same viewpoint on that, actually. I tend to conquer everything, so auto-pillage is a nerf in my mind.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

It's the difference between requiring KotE, a specific resource, and a mage, and basically nothing. And bear in mind that Tempered also adds /additional/ resistances, and is significantly more powerful then Courage (Unless the -10% bad lairs is supposed to actually be that good).

And I believe I've made it clear in the past, but I strongly dislike hard counters; Tempered for the Mechanos ONLY seems fine (As they can't pick up courage elsewhere), but beyond that, it's just too powerful against that.

Then again, you're replacing one hard counter (Assassins) with another (Fear), so I guess there's no clean solution from my standpoint.

I think you might be overestimating immunity to fear.

It is very useful once the AC goes through the roof. Before that...not so much. Guardsman is much stronger as a buff from turn 1, and its benefit stacks. The benefits of tempered are going to be of very limited utility for much of the game.

Tempered wasn't swapped in as a power boost so much as a shift towards the lore. The Bannor crawled back out of Hell...and the tempered trait is meant to reflect that.

 

[Valkrionn]

So, figured out why the unit religion art was goofing on me..... apparently you can't use an atlas button for that, it has to be a single button. I also blocked them from all religious techs.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

On the slayer promos:


A running theme in my responses ...but they weren't intended as a huge power upgrade. The lore mentions the Bannor declaring this or that foe as unclean and focusing their religious fervor on them. Slayer promos seemed the best way to represent that, and I felt that they were self-limiting...they give the player the opportunity to make a flavorful choice rather than the usual combat1-5 progression.

I suppose it would be possible in python to limit the Bannor civ to one possible slayer promo at a time...spells could be used to "declare a new enemy". That doesn't really address the concern that slayer promos are too strong though...and poor Valkrionn would have to do the python work for me.

Honestly I had never considered slayer promos in general to be overpowered...and there seemed to be some enthusiasm for bringing them back. I've always made sparing use of them...in my test games with my Bannor changes I've mostly used orc slayer to fend off early orc swarms. Beyond that I prefer to avoid situational promos...but I also tend to hold on to my experienced units.

 

[Valkrionn]

The main issue might be Crusade, actually, because then you get a bunch of free units who can take whatever slayer promo you need them to, and are completely disposable. But it would be extremely easy to block them from the Slayer promotions.

I actually like the limited idea..... Only way I can think of off the top of my head is a bit roundabout, but easy. Have the spell create a wonder, which provides a building, which provides an effect promo, which allows the slayer promotion. Could just have the spell add the effect promo to all units, but then you have to cast it every time you build a new unit......

Edit: Should probably make a new thread for the Bannor changes though, because I already have issues tracking the Mechanos ideas.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Why not simply make it that the slayer promotions require eather comba or drill maxed out?
The way I see it, most races (vampires and undead excluded) do not have any real phisical characteristic allowing for such exploitation.
Instead, the promotion must be aquired by years of training and hard work, training against oponents imitating said race, or fighting said race. So that you can pick up their technique, their MO and combat style in general.

So moving them up the line seems apprporiate.

 

[xartah]

Where's the human slaying promotion? Why can you train to be good at killing elves or dwarves but not humans?

How about a ritual buildable during a crusade that adds a promotion to the units for a few turns? Having a ritual with a one turn duration that can be built in one turn would mean that you have to sacrifice something to get the effect. Maybe even only buildable in the capital. No idea if this would be possible to implement however.

 

[Quetz]

TBH I'd say just put the Slayer promos back in as is. I really did miss them. No need to severly overcomplicate it. XD

And yeah, please do that 2nd option in that one post about making the "mounted" bannor vulnerable to formation.

 

[Opera]

Where's the human slaying promotion? Why can you train to be good at killing elves or dwarves but not humans?

Because there is no Human race promotion. I think there should be one, though...