Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Tarquelne]

It was very simple to make and textures were just stolen from the necron building, but the dome/sphere and spire im not sure about.

Nice!

Looking at it I was wondering if the dome shouldn't be completely eliminated - the up-most parts of the Necron structure are where I'd imagined the dome to be, and would provide the same function. OTOH, I think the spire needs the dome, and without the spire you've just got a Necron building.

I think you were on the right track with the gold dome - try recoloring the rest of it? Sandstone? ATM I think it looks too mournful (The Cenotaph's are a "till he rises again" thing)... and too recognizably Necron.

EDIT: and i recycled an old model i made originally as an elven cathedral,

I think that'd work well for the CoRebirth. Or maybe the Flesh Studio, or Melante's Estate?

Re: other DoW buildings:

The Sisters of Battle Ecclesiastical Chapel and Adepta Sororitas Convent both would be great as either TofGift or Imperial C, I think. I really like the looks of the Pristine Sanctuary as a CoRebirth.

The Holy Reliquary is quite... spikey. Melante's Estate? Or maybe Temple of the Gift.

A small Necron plasma generator could represent that a city is a Necropolis.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

patch C changes sound awesome! especially the elohim actually travelling to the unique features is the AI going to grasp the mechanics of that btw?

oh and kudos on your new signature Vehem

 

[Vehem]

patch C changes sound awesome! especially the elohim actually travelling to the unique features is the AI going to grasp the mechanics of that btw?

Not so much - yet. Adding a "visitable" tag to improvements that AI_EXPLORE takes notice of (in the same way as goody huts, but only visiting once) may be a project for later.

 

[Ekolite]

Giving Decius the Tolerant Conqourer trait is such a great idea! Thanks for using some of my ideas for the Elohim, which now look very fun by the way. I wonder if giving them a trait for free might be a little overpowered though, particularly if tehre are multiple trait giving world improvements. Maybe they should have to pay some gold? Maybe 500? When will patch C be out?

Also, I think the level requirements for monk upgrade promos are a little steep, particularly with the reduction in their strength. How are they going to get that advanced before other civs get units too strong for monks to defeat? Maybe they should gain xp automatically like mages/priests?

 

[Dragonlord]

Have to report a bug that causes immediate CTDs - playing on 042B.

When in the Financial Advisor (F2), when I mouse-over the City Maintenance (where it's supposed to show maintenance by distance and no. of cities) I get an immediate crash.
This is the second game I've had this and, unfortunately, it 'works' every time..

Don't know if this is FFH or FF, since I immediately installed FF when FFH 0.33 came out, haven't played without it..

Can anyone confirm...? Haven't had any other problems, so I don't think it's my installation.

 

[Skitters]

Not so much - yet. Adding a "visitable" tag to improvements that AI_EXPLORE takes notice of (in the same way as goody huts, but only visiting once) may be a project for later.

could you have something on the lines of an event hut? - that is it'd act like a goody hut, but graphically perhaps have no image.

Unit enters the tile, and pops the 'hut' which would be another qualifier for an event

(ie; Unit on Letum Frigus + event hut + Elohim = event triggered)

The event hut could then presumably draw the AI in the same way as a goody hut

That would presumably have the side effect of encouraging the AI to pop the events even if they not Elohim and it won't benefit them (which would equate to human players also using that spoiling tactic to prevent an AI Elohim from benefitting)

Although would that also imply the odd Barb unit would migrate to the Feratures as they do Lairs and goody huts...

 

[Ekolite]

I don't think the Elohim should have to be the first player to reach the trait-giving landmarks. It would defeat the theme of pilgrimage as there would be no point travelling the world to reach the landmark because it would be almost certain a closer civ has already passed through.

 

[Vehem]

Also, I think the level requirements for monk upgrade promos are a little steep, particularly with the reduction in their strength. How are they going to get that advanced before other civs get units too strong for monks to defeat? Maybe they should gain xp automatically like mages/priests?

They will gain XP automatically if they manage to gain the Spiritual trait. A monk heavy strategy is certainly more viable in that case. It's basically a decision to make early on based on your start situation - check if Sirona's Beacon will be available, then make plans to reach it and pursue a monk strategy. Alternatively if it's not available, Monks are still viable as defenders and a few well placed ones can reach Level 6 very quickly from barbarians alone - other units such as Paladins will probably be needed in the very late game however.

The final level requirement is deliberately steep - there's only one other unit in the game with a double affinity (Chalid) and he can be incredibly potent because of it (even before you consider his spell selection).

Have to report a bug that causes immediate CTDs - playing on 042B.

When in the Financial Advisor (F2), when I mouse-over the City Maintenance (where it's supposed to show maintenance by distance and no. of cities) I get an immediate crash.
This is the second game I've had this and, unfortunately, it 'works' every time..

Don't know if this is FFH or FF, since I immediately installed FF when FFH 0.33 came out, haven't played without it..

Can anyone confirm...? Haven't had any other problems, so I don't think it's my installation.

Reproducible and confirmed - will look into it. Won't make it into Patch C, but will try to sort it out for D.

could you have something on the lines of an event hut? - that is it'd act like a goody hut, but graphically perhaps have no image.

Unit enters the tile, and pops the 'hut' which would be another qualifier for an event

(ie; Unit on Letum Frigus + event hut + Elohim = event triggered)

The event hut could then presumably draw the AI in the same way as a goody hut

That would presumably have the side effect of encouraging the AI to pop the events even if they not Elohim and it won't benefit them (which would equate to human players also using that spoiling tactic to prevent an AI Elohim from benefitting)

Although would that also imply the odd Barb unit would migrate to the Feratures as they do Lairs and goody huts...

This would possibly help the AI to reach the target, but would remove the ability for multiple civs to visit. At present any Elohim civ (could be multiple) can visit each site once and each civ will get the relevant effect once. The same is true for any other civ that we set up to benefit from visiting locations. Odio's prison is the exception to this - it doesn't consider itself "visited" until it has actually reset a worldspell (arriving before casting Sanctuary won't cost you the chance to use the site).

I also plan to redo the Letum Frigus effect so that it's not just the first civ to arrive that gets the chance - if you're not the first there, the benefit is gone even if the other civ wasn't Amurite or Illian. This is partly mitigated by the fact that only a Human player can trigger the event. With the "SiteVisited" feats that we added, each player can visit a place and have the appropriate benefit, even if someone else got there first.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Patch C - Unreleased
1. Missing Text Keys included (FFH2_Gametext now part of the standard release)
2. Decius will update his Broad Alignment when choosing alignment.
3. Assimilation upgrades fixed
4. Sphener and MoM menu screens added as options
5. Decius Gains "Conqueror" trait (rebranded "Tolerant"), but loses Raiders.
6. Added Monastery UB for the Elohim (Replaces Pagan Temple, GPP bonus, +1 Culture, Happiness from Spirit Mana instead of Incense, Allows 1 Sage)
7. Added Archives UB for the Elohim (Replaces Library, requires Monastery, +40% Science, Priest instead of Sage)
8. Added Abbey UB for the Elohim (requires 4 Pagan Temples, Culture bonus, Produces +2GPP (Prophet), 1 Happiness per 20% culture, required for Monks to learn "Purity" and "Focus")
9. Added Minster UB for the Elohim (requires 2 Abbey's, National Wonder, Significant Culture/GPP, 1 Happiness per 10% culture, required for Monks to learn "Enlightenment")
10. Elohim Racial Promotion - Pacifist. -1 Offensive Combat Strength.
11. Monks changed to be Strength 4/5, Move 1.
12. Added "Purity" (requires: Monk, Abbey, Level 4. AutoAcquired. +100% Resistance to Poison Damage, +25% Resistance to Unholy Damage, Immune to Disease/Plague).
13. Added "Focus" (requires: Monk, Abbey, Level 6. AutoAcquired. +1 Spirit Affinity, +25% Resistance to Unholy Damage).
14. Added "Enlightenment" (requires: Monk, Minster, Level 12. AutoAcquired. +1 Spirit Affinity, Immune to Fear, Immune to Magic).
15. Achieving "Enlightenment" grants the Honorific title of "Sohei".
16. Added Bradeline's Well Unique Feature (Entropy Mana Source, +4 Commerce with Corruption of Spirit)
17. If controlled by Sheaim player with Knowledge of the Ether, Bradeline's well has small chance per turn of summoning an Imp or Pit Beast under player's control.
18. If visited by the Elohim, Bradeline's Well can be "repaired". Removes the mana source, reduces AC by 5, prevents Sheaim summoning event.
19. Added Sirona's Beacon Unique Feature (Spirit Mana Source, +2 happy in nearby cities)
20. If visited by the Elohim, Sirona's Beacon grants them the "Spiritual" trait.
21. If visited by the Elohim, Remnants of Patria grants them the "Industrious" trait.
22. If visited by the Elohim, Pool of Tears grants them the "Expansive" trait.
23. If visited by the Elohim, Mirror of Heaven grants +1 Happiness in all Elohim cities.
24. If visited by the Elohim, Odio's Prison will reset their world spell use ("Birthright Regained").
25. Corlindale grants 1 additional vote on the over council. Strength set to 1/0 (becomes 0/0 with Pacifist)
26. Elohim lose the Tolerant trait.
27. Added Silver Circle Wonder (requires Alteration and Currency, +25% Science/Currency, allows construction of Wandering Sages)
28. Added Wandering Sage unit (requires Silver Circle, allows construction of Enchanter's Enclave building, can perform small trade missions)
29. Added Enchanter's Enclave building (can only be constructed by Wandering Sage, +5% commerce bonus for Gold, Gems, Mithril, Reagents, Incense, +1 Happiness with Enchantment Mana)

Patch C does look quite nice. I am concerned though that Tolerant/Conqueror isn't really a strong enough trait to stand on its own (after all, it was a third trait for the Elohim leaders.) I'd rather Decius not lose Raider.



It does seem strange to me that a monastery allows sages and Archives priests.

I'm a little concerned about Pacifist being a racial promotion. Wouldn't that mean it would apply to workers and other 0 str units too, giving them negative strength? I believe that could cause problems. Of course, using xienwolf's new tags could get around this and still apply it to al non-worker unitcombats. (If you do so, you probably need to give Corindale 1 str. Oh, I just saw you did so. Nevermind.)


I'd probably change the promotion names from nouns to adjectives (e.g., enlightenment->enlightened)

I'm not a fan of the title Sohei

I'm thinking Brandaline's Well should have more effects for other civs too. Maybe the Sheaim requirement should be changed to AV state religion?


While I like the idea traits from unique features, I'm not sure of these exact ones. Odio's Prison's connection to Birthright regained seems very odd. I always considered the Pool of Tears to be closely tied to Sirona (and/or her archangel, Pelian the Suffering), so I'd probably give it the Sirona's beacon mana/trait, instead of adding another feature. Expansive doesn't make much sense here. From the Beltane Cycle we know that looking into the Mirror of heaven "is supposed to bless anyone who looks into it, to make him more virtuous." I had remembered this slightly differently, thinking it said something about introspection, and so was thinking it should give the Philosophical trait. Of course, that would weaken Einion, since he starts with it already, unless he is given a different trait (Charismatic maybe?).




Would it be possible to make the Elohim get the bonus not have to be the first to find the unique features to get the bonuses, but have to maintain a presence near the features in order to keep them? I'm thinking that either having the feature in their borders or having a unit stationed there (meaning they have open borders with the plot's owner) would be good. That way they not only seek to regain control of the holy sites, but must keep guarding them.

could you have something on the lines of an event hut? - that is it'd act like a goody hut, but graphically perhaps have no image.

Unit enters the tile, and pops the 'hut' which would be another qualifier for an event

(ie; Unit on Letum Frigus + event hut + Elohim = event triggered)

The event hut could then presumably draw the AI in the same way as a goody hut

That would presumably have the side effect of encouraging the AI to pop the events even if they not Elohim and it won't benefit them (which would equate to human players also using that spoiling tactic to prevent an AI Elohim from benefitting)

Although would that also imply the odd Barb unit would migrate to the Feratures as they do Lairs and goody huts...

That sounds very much like the direction I'm trying to get Marnok Mod to move in before it is integrated with the main mod.

 

[Vehem]

Patch C does look quite nice. I am concerned though that Tolerant/Conqueror isn't really a strong enough trait to stand on its own (after all, it was a third trait for the Elohim leaders.) I'd rather Decius not lose Raider.

It might be one to look into, but the Elohim had it as a third trait largely because their civ didn't have many features of their own. Decius will get to keep all the features of the Bannor/Malakim/Calabim as well as the conquered civ features.

I'm a little concerned about Pacifist being a racial promotion. Wouldn't that mean it would apply to workers and other 0 str units too, giving them negative strength? I believe that could cause problems. Of course, using xienwolf's new tags could get around this and still apply it to al non-worker unitcombats. (If you do so, you probably need to give Corindale 1 str. Oh, I just saw you did so. Nevermind.)

Aye - you were right - came across that one in testing. It's now an AutoAcquire for the relevant Elohim UNITCOMBATs and Corlindale was the awkward exception as you mentioned. The negative strength didn't actually cause problems (the workers tried to fight but always lost), but it did look very strange.

I'd probably change the promotion names from nouns to adjectives (e.g., enlightenment->enlightened)

Possibly, though the help text refers to them in terms of "Achieving" - they're AutoAcquires that require the building. "Achieving Purity" rather than "Gains Pure".

I'm not a fan of the title Sohei

I'd accept a better one - "Grandmaster" was the original thought but I didn't like it much, Sohei was the one that had been repeatedly mentioned during discussion. It is a little specific however and those particular monks were not the generic fantasy martial artists exclusively (they tended to wield Naginata and often wore armour).

I'm thinking Brandaline's Well should have more effects for other civs too. Maybe the Sheaim requirement should be changed to AV state religion?

Possibly - I may do that for the "control" effect and add a Sheaim "visit" effect.

While I like the idea traits from unique features, I'm not sure of these exact ones. Odio's Prison's connection to Birthright regained seems very odd. I always considered the Pool of Tears to be closely tied to Sirona (and/or her archangel, Pelian the Suffering), so I'd probably give it the Sirona's beacon mana/trait, instead of adding another feature. Expansive doesn't make much sense here. From the Beltane Cycle we know that looking into the Mirror of heaven "is supposed to bless anyone who looks into it, to make him more virtuous." I had remembered this slightly differently, thinking it said something about introspection, and so was thinking it should give the Philosophical trait. Of course, that would weaken Einion, since he starts with it already, unless he is given a different trait (Charismatic maybe?).

Odio's is partially covered by the quote given when you visit it - a warning against unchecked aggression and a reminder that the Elohim should not make the same mistake. It re-inspires their Pacifism, which is pretty much the inspiration for the worldspell.

The Pool of Tears is obviously closely linked to Sirona, but it doesn't personify her particularly. In fact, weeping would tend to indicate a "broken spirit" rather than the positive side. The Beacon is supposed to be a symbol of hope and courage in a dark world.

The Mirror of Heaven would probably suit Philosophical well, but I tried to avoid the traits the leaders already had. I almost chose to give it Charismatic, but that would also decrease the experience needed to train the monks upto the required levels, so instead it was implemented as the happiness effect from Charismatic, without the rest.

 

[Ekolite]

Would it be possible to make the Elohim get the bonus not have to be the first to find the unique features to get the bonuses, but have to maintain a presence near the features in order to keep them? I'm thinking that either having the feature in their borders or having a unit stationed there (meaning they have open borders with the plot's owner) would be good. That way they not only seek to regain control of the holy sites, but must keep guarding them.

Yeah I agree with this. In lore the Elohim are the Protectors of Holy places, it would be interesting if they had to have a unit stationed there to keep the trait. Preferably something like a monk, and not something that could pass through oponents borders without open borders.

A thematic site to give expansive would be the tree of ygdrassil.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

speaking of unique features, does the latest FF include "flavourful" mechanics for the placing of the unique improvements? you know, like the elohim having lots of them around, orcs with the pyre of seraphic, illians with letum frigus etc. ?

 

[Vehem]

Yeah I agree with this. In lore the Elohim are the Protectors of Holy places, it would be interesting if they had to have a unit stationed there to keep the trait. Preferably something like a monk, and not something that could pass through oponents borders without open borders.

A thematic site to give expansive would be the tree of ygdrassil.

I'd have liked it this way, but it'll take some work to sort out the mechanics. The specific effect would need to be something that could be applied turn-to-turn and would need to be tracked through doFFTurn (when it reaches the site, it can check for the relevant defender).

Having the traits applied in this way would require all extra traits being wiped every turn and then reapplied once the site is reached in the worldsweep (doFFTurn). I'm not sure how resilient the methods for adding and removing traits en-masse would be, but it may work.

 

[Elm]

In lore the Elohim are the Protectors of Holy places

This would be better, it would allow the Elohim to LOSE the traits as well, if they loose the unique feature. For coding, it may be enough to treat these as "untradeable" resources. Can a single feature provide two resources though? Since most of these provide something tradeable as well. Then make the AI value these unique feature resources very highly, and maybe it will try to put a city nearby (but not on top of it...). In terms of a unit protecting it. Maybe a unit could add Elohim cultural boarders to the tile (without causing war).

That would be interesting. you have the feature in your territory, and open boarders with Elohim, and they come along and "protect" it, effectively taking it away from you.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'd accept a better one - "Grandmaster" was the original thought but I didn't like it much, Sohei was the one that had been repeatedly mentioned during discussion. It is a little specific however and those particular monks were not the generic fantasy martial artists exclusively (they tended to wield Naginata and often wore armour).

The Sohei graphic from EWS has armor and a pole arm... it also looks as Eastern as the name. I like pretending the Elohim have a lot of the East in them but that's not cannon, I think.

"Master"? "Guardian"?

I like the use of AutoAcquire for the promotions.

 

[hbar]

I'd have liked it this way, but it'll take some work to sort out the mechanics. The specific effect would need to be something that could be applied turn-to-turn and would need to be tracked through doFFTurn (when it reaches the site, it can check for the relevant defender).

Having the traits applied in this way would require all extra traits being wiped every turn and then reapplied once the site is reached in the worldsweep (doFFTurn). I'm not sure how resilient the methods for adding and removing traits en-masse would be, but it may work.

Could you do this in a similar way to Marnok's "Village defender" mechanic? In his modmod (I forget if this part is in FF or not, it's fairly recent), you plant a unit on a tribal village, and a counter builds up. Once it reaches a certain value, you can approach the elders. If another civ's unit sits on the village after you leave, they slowly reduce your counter and then build their own.

This way you wouldn't be stealing someone else's resource (mana, yggdrasils, etc) but there would be a strategic (anti-Elohim) advantage to control the features. I suppose it could even lead to arms races between "friendly" civs with open borders, each side trying to have more units on the feature than the other.

 

[Vehem]

Could you do this in a similar way to Marnok's "Village defender" mechanic? In his modmod (I forget if this part is in FF or not, it's fairly recent), you plant a unit on a tribal village, and a counter builds up. Once it reaches a certain value, you can approach the elders. If another civ's unit sits on the village after you leave, they slowly reduce your counter and then build their own.

This way you wouldn't be stealing someone else's resource (mana, yggdrasils, etc) but there would be a strategic (anti-Elohim) advantage to control the features. I suppose it could even lead to arms races between "friendly" civs with open borders, each side trying to have more units on the feature than the other.

Thanks - I'll take a look at that - does sound like something I may be able to adapt...

 

[Klaerth]

A friend and I just recently downloaded Fall Further...installing both it and then patch B.

We installed it over a 0.33 FfH3 that was updated to patch C, which we believe ought to be correct.

However, as soon as we finish the first or second turn of any given game, it immediately goes irrepairably out of sync. Any idea what might be wrong, here?

Edit: As well, I'm curious if something we saw was intentional, or a bug - he started in a game next to the Tomb of Sucellus (spelling? o.o). However, the text was on the map in two different places. One was at the Tomb itself, another was a few squares off. Is it meant to be that way, to denote that it is nearby, or is this something strange and buggy?

Anyone have any idea what might be going on, here? We're both running Vista, as another note. I'm at the very least curious to know whether the double unique feature text is intentional. =3 The OOS I'll just fiddle around with reinstalling and hope to fix. >.>

 

[Vehem]

Anyone have any idea what might be going on, here? We're both running Vista, as another note. I'm at the very least curious to know whether the double unique feature text is intentional. =3 The OOS I'll just fiddle around with reinstalling and hope to fix. >.>

I'm going to have a play around with the MP side of things this weekend - will see what I can work out. The Unique Feature text may be part of the problem - one system may be thinking the features is in a slightly different location to where it actually is. No idea why that would be the case, but it's the only reason I can see for the sign being placed.

 

[Klaerth]

I'll run it in single player quick to see if I still happen to see it that way... (though it had been both my friend and myself that had seen it)