[BTS] Fast Science Victory - How To?

[sylvanllewelyn]

A while back I had a Space Race victory on Noble normal speed using Persia / Darius. Made numerous mistakes so I think I can go faster next time. Other AI leaders were random and they were not nice ones. I didn't choose leaders and map settings HoF-style.

Spoiler :

No point going Incas unless monarch or above. In theory deity should be fastest because the AIs can keep up... hard to say. Need more units to invade and capitulate them into tech trading pets. Tech costs are higher and WFYABTA hits with fewer techs. Captured cities are more developed. Maybe immortal is the sweet spot?

 

[Anysense]

Settler seems to be the best, mostly because of cheap research and generous huts. Immortal, probably, better than Deity. AI is still useful - builds lots of workers and cities for you - but weak and easy to conquer, and it is often possible to secure the Oracle for something big, like Assembly Line or Railroad.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Settler seems to be the best, mostly because of cheap research and generous huts. Immortal, probably, better than Deity. AI is still useful - builds lots of workers and cities for you - but weak and easy to conquer, and it is often possible to secure the Oracle for something big, like Assembly Line or Railroad.

You mean liberalism for assembly line? Or actually the oracle? I never got anything bigger than education.

 

[Jellybug]

If you Oracle Future Tech, Cassandra will finally stop wailing

 

[Anysense]

You mean liberalism for assembly line? Or actually the oracle? I never got anything bigger than education.

Yes, the Oracle. You have to beat up every AI very quickly so they can't steal it. On Deity I only ever managed to do it on marathon, but on Immortal it is doable on epic speed. It may be impractical though. I mean that you can pick Mansa and other fast teching AI's and enjoy the benefit of massive early tech trading. It can be more beneficial even though they will force you to build the Oracle early or even give up on it completely.

Who is Cassandra?

 

[Jellybug]

Cassandra is a mythical figure, a preistess of Apollo and the daughter of Priam, Troy's final king. She promises herself to the god Apollo in exchange for future sight, then goes back on the deal. (The story is rather rapey and I'm not sure how much of this deal was consensual to begin with). So angry Apollo grants her the power of true prophecy, on the condition that nobody believe her divinings.

 

[Anysense]

That's tough. I'm not sure I can help her - oracling future tech is horribly inefficient.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I tried another game on Noble, no huts no events, normal speed, standard size. 1585-AD space landing (1535-AD launch).

Spoiler :

Incas are great at Monarch+ because there are archers to fight but on Noble and Prince, I still think Darius of Persia is better.

You are doing civil service slingshot anyway and caste system gives you artists on demand, negating the advantage of terraces. Immortals have 2 movement. Then you whip out courthouses at 2-pop.

I find industrious to be a trait hard to leverage. Although I can't imagine it being better at higher levels.

 

[dankok8]

I played a recent offline game with Darius on Emperor/Fractal. Destroyed GK early and settled a large continent. Built the GLH + Colossus and cottages a ton of green tiles so my economy was roaring to say the least. It was 1400 AD and I was pulling almost 2000 beakers a turn without running a deficit. I was building Manhattan project and AI still didn't have Gunpowder. It's my most impressive teching economy ever and if AI researched a bit faster I'd be even further along. I had to self-research just about everything.

 

[5tephen]

@sylvanllewelyn
Off topic but in case it saves you time with screenshot editing, did you know you can change your name mid-game by pressing ALT-D?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@sylvanllewelyn
Off topic but in case it saves you time with screenshot editing, did you know you can change your name mid-game by pressing ALT-D?

I learnt something new. I will try it. Thanks!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Incas, noble, normal speed, standard map size. Sub-1500AD space colony (1390AD launch).

5 golden ages, 4 from great people, 1 from Taj Mahal. Staying below 56% domination limit was tricky since the terrace produced +2 culture.

Spoiler :

1200AD

 

[floydmcw]

In anysense's HOF BC Space thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/non-incan-deity-bc-space.668975/page-3#post-16072379) Settler/Epic was discussed. I tried and got T304 (1420 AD) space victory. Some thoughts:

1. Had never tried to generate a HOF map, it's hard. Many things have to go right -- high food capital, good commerce, good nearby city sites, marble, decent luck with huts. This game was unlucky in that I got 2 settlers but no workers.
2. You don't realize how much the other AIs help you, even passively, until you play Settler. I did trade for Masonry, Polytheism, Meditation, Hunting, Archery, Priesthood, Drama. Zara peacevassaled and I set him on Compass ... which took him 21 turns. I did make a fair bit of money trading techs for $40-100 every few turns.
3. Chose Elizabeth to help with economy and great people. IND isn't of much use because there are only a few wonders you need (I built Stonehenge, Oracle, Colossus, MoM, GL, Parthenon, Taj), and the Settler AIs are hopeless at building wonders. They built one wonder (ToA) during the entire game! Unique units don't matter much either, if you want to kill someone just build 5-6 units.
4. With unrestricted leaders I think the best might be Elizabeth of Azteca. Great UB for whipping, UU might make it possible to steal a worker or two, and Myst/Hunting are bonuses on Settler.
5. Higher level strats - WonderBread econ, worker thievery -- just do not work at all on Settler.

 

[Anysense]

@floydmcw
There must be some tricks that break the game, because there are a few Settler/Epic 7XX AD space games by @iggymnrr and @Dynamic in HoF. The former is still active, you might ask him how he is doing it.

 

[floydmcw]

@floydmcw
There must be some tricks that break the game, because there are a few Settler/Epic 7XX AD space games by @iggymnrr and @Dynamic in HoF. The former is still active, you might ask him how he is doing it.

They could have had better luck -- my settler/epic game had 2 settlers from huts but no workers, and the capital's food was clams -- and they are very likely better players too.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

In anysense's HOF BC Space thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/non-incan-deity-bc-space.668975/page-3#post-16072379) Settler/Epic was discussed. I tried and got T304 (1420 AD) space victory. Some thoughts:

1. Had never tried to generate a HOF map, it's hard. Many things have to go right -- high food capital, good commerce, good nearby city sites, marble, decent luck with huts. This game was unlucky in that I got 2 settlers but no workers.
2. You don't realize how much the other AIs help you, even passively, until you play Settler. I did trade for Masonry, Polytheism, Meditation, Hunting, Archery, Priesthood, Drama. Zara peacevassaled and I set him on Compass ... which took him 21 turns. I did make a fair bit of money trading techs for $40-100 every few turns.
3. Chose Elizabeth to help with economy and great people. IND isn't of much use because there are only a few wonders you need (I built Stonehenge, Oracle, Colossus, MoM, GL, Parthenon, Taj), and the Settler AIs are hopeless at building wonders. They built one wonder (ToA) during the entire game! Unique units don't matter much either, if you want to kill someone just build 5-6 units.
4. With unrestricted leaders I think the best might be Elizabeth of Azteca. Great UB for whipping, UU might make it possible to steal a worker or two, and Myst/Hunting are bonuses on Settler.
5. Higher level strats - WonderBread econ, worker thievery -- just do not work at all on Settler.

Personal opinion. Epic watch paint dry. Marathon watch grass grow. Game created and balanced for normal.

Agree settler difficulty depends on tribal village results more than starting location. Agree wonderbread does not work; the conversion ratio is better but the opportunity cost of waiting is too long and (thus) too high.

Like financial. Dislike philosophical. Getting great persons a little sooner does not accomplish anything for settler. Stick with Darius or Huayna. If unrestricted leaders, I speculate the baray would be good. I cannot find a UB bonus that I prefer over +1 food.

As an aside I am still searching for a "how to" recipe for space colony. I found a good one for the end-game but I want something complete. Obviously "everything depends" but obviously players also adjust recipes "to taste".

If not, I might write one myself later. If I do, if, if I do...

Normal speed, standard size, no hut, no events, monarch, Tokugawa.

Monarch because I want to remove the warrior rush option. Tokugawa because I want the guide to generalise to any leader and AGG-PRO is the closest to "no traits" for space colony.

 

[sampsa]

Agree wonderbread does not work

Well, it should work the same way with the wonders YOU are finishing.

A random thought - perhaps mining and hunting is the best starting combo for this setting.

 

[sampsa]

perhaps mining and hunting is the best starting combo for this setting.

And of these leaders I think I like Peter best. I think PHI is really good under these conditions (also for Oxford) and EXP is decent as you need to build a lot of workers. I agree that of the UU/UBs that are available, Baray is probably the one that matters at all.

Of course I could be wrong and ORG just triumphs over EXP (=Fred).

 

[floydmcw]

Personal opinion. Epic watch paint dry. Marathon watch grass grow. Game created and balanced for normal.

Yeah, though Epic is tolerable on Settler because the bonuses make it feel like normal speed.

Agree settler difficulty depends on tribal village results more than starting location. Agree wonderbread does not work; the conversion ratio is better but the opportunity cost of waiting is too long and (thus) too high.

Like financial. Dislike philosophical. Getting great persons a little sooner does not accomplish anything for settler. Stick with Darius or Huayna. If unrestricted leaders, I speculate the baray would be good. I cannot find a UB bonus that I prefer over +1 food.

Strongly disagree. GPs are good for bulbing, and on Settler you have to self-research everything. GPs also give you golden ages. And it's very helpful to get Mining Inc (and to a lesser extent Sid's or Cereal Mills).

If you have marble, IND does little for you. Most wonders you want get a 100% marble bonus.

As an aside I am still searching for a "how to" recipe for space colony. I found a good one for the end-game but I want something complete. Obviously "everything depends" but obviously players also adjust recipes "to taste".

My recipe is to research Ind (for Aluminum) and Superconductors (for Labs). Then Rocketry and build Labs and Apollo.

Next up is Satellites. The 2nd-6th most productive cities build thrusters; the #1 city (which presumably built Apollo) works on the expensive Docking Bay.

Then the cheapest path to Fiber Optics (usually Computers, which can be bulbed, but if I conquered the Minaret I might go Laser instead). The Cockpit is cheap, put some moderate-hammer city to work on it.

Fission (can be bulbed) -> Fusion. Do something with the GE (probably settle). Top 2 cities build engines.

Composites. Cities 3-7 build casings.

Genetics. Build Life Support, but don't put the best city on it.

Ecology. Finish the spaceship with Life Support, hopefully have saved a high-prod city since it's the last part.

 

[floydmcw]

Well, it should work the same way with the wonders YOU are finishing.

A random thought - perhaps mining and hunting is the best starting combo for this setting.

On Settler the player starts with mining.

Self-failgold just didn't seem to work out in my game, because the other cities were busy and also just because I didn't want to delay the wonder to let other cities build it. I could have been more patient. This is where Marathon shines, losing a turn while another city builds the wonder is a lot less painful.