[BTS] Fast Science Victory - How To?

[Fish Man]

Another important concept relevant to an earlier question you had: FOOD is PRODUCTION (learn this....)

Was it just me, or was that map pretty devoid of food resources and heavily jungled? How do I deal with those situations?

Should I jump straight to monarch? I was staying at noble and prince so I didn't have to worry much about defense or landgrabbing from the AI that much and could have the peace to figure out the correct build orders, worker improvements, tech order, and city placements - none of which I have apparently really figured out. Wouldn't jumping up a difficulty already give me more trouble than I'm ready for?

How should I learn best? Should I post a new game here and ask you all to walk me through? Read guides/watch videos (if so, which - I was trying to follow this https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/guide-to-spaceship-victory-ssv.450456/ but failed obviously)? I was told pretty consistently to learn the basics, but what are the basics and where do I find writeups on them or examples? I've seen a lot of the GoTM maps being thrown around, but AFAIK there are only results and victory saves, not detailed analyses?

 

[diegobueno]

hi every body, im a monarch/emperor player, just some things to ask here because i like to read this type of threads

Markets are bad

lot of players said the same, but why markets are bad? what if i want to work 2 mechants?
i tend to work lots of merchants for my capital, and run rep its that bad? should y run to settle gs instead of gm?
other question is should i build oxfords and wall street on the same city? (i run rep)

beeline Alpha

its alpha that crucial? should i tech early?

You should play Monarch or Emperor

emperor is way to far from noble, one step at the time, Undefeatable, play some of the nobles club games on prince, then when master go on monarch, and so on and so on.
post a thread on this forum so we can help you to improve your gameplay. as the nobles club doctrine said

Spoiler nobles club :

"Victory or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire"

 

[Archon_Wing]

Some maps are just more suited to different things. Some for war, some for tech. With riverside grasslands, you can pop down cottages and collect the money. The cities to the south will be great for that once you've cleaned the jungle. But because you don't really have great commerce in your capital, you're better off popping great people and running scientists.

Also early on remember that immediate benefits >> long-term ones. That means it's fine to build an inferior city if it gets you something you need immediately over a city that is better long term. A classic example is a city that's between 2 food sources. Both are 2 tiles away. Do you try to wait for a border pop to use all that food that you can't even get due to happiness cap, or do you build a city next to one food resource, and eventually build a 2nd? Usually the first choice is better if you're not creative. In reality, unless you have happiness resources outside the wazoo, you won't be able to work most of the tiles until midgame, so instead 2 smaller cities sharing food sources can be better.

You can stay at the same level you are, but focus on trying to build cities instead of attacking them that early. There's no point learning something that doesn't really work at higher levels, not to mention on starts where they're either far away, or you have more than one land mass.

Also turn off huts and events. Those add way too much variation for any meaningful comparison.

 

[Fish Man]

Some maps are just more suited to different things. Some for war, some for tech. With riverside grasslands, you can pop down cottages and collect the money. The cities to the south will be great for that once you've cleaned the jungle. But because you don't really have great commerce in your capital, you're better off popping great people and running scientists.

You can stay at the same level you are, but focus on trying to build cities instead of attacking them that early. There's no point learning something that doesn't really work at higher levels, not to mention on starts where they're either far away, or you have more than one land mass.

Also turn off huts and events. Those add way too much variation for any meaningful comparison.

OK, that seems like sound advice. I agree, using lower-difficulty crutches is a bad idea.

TBH I've always gone for caste system and gone representation with merchant/scientist specialist economy spam as soon as possible, so the idea of a cottage economy is still pretty new to me. Wouldn't grassland riverside cottages make cities grow slower, since each pop takes progressively more food but you only get 2f per extra grassland tile, even with granary? Never really learned how to balance farms and cottages; as a rule I always cottage flood plains because 4f early game is just too much, but I don't really know any other guidelines.

I keep hearing around here that I'm not getting SOMETHING fundamental, if not several things - otherwise I would be teching much faster. I whipped my cities to the fullest, tried to get key builds like granary and library (for borders) up ASAP, but still everything seems frustratingly slow.

 

[lymond]

Undefeatable - ha..there is so much to say and learn here, so yeah, playing a game with us is best for now. I would not worry about things like fastest space right now, but rather the first 100 turns or so, then take it from there. Again, getting off to a good start is the key

Sometimes you have to adjust your approach to economy/research based on the map and land you are given, but except for super quick fast conquest/dom games, you generally always want a good bureau cap.

Over time you will learn the mechanics of food and growth and how to grow faster with cottages, but another concept here to learn is city overlap, helper cities and city specialization. For cottage cities, like the bureau cap, you can overlap cities to keep cottage growth process going and then gradually let the cap grow on them when it can and happiness allows - after CS. City overlap is a key concept and even more import at higher levels as city maintenance due to distance increases. So there is more to one benefit to the concept. Tile sharing when cities are smaller and whipping a lot, and cottage growth, and maintenance reduction, among other things.

And yes, there are other ways to research than simply cottages, Bureau cap is cottage city of course, and you may have secondary sites suited for the purpose, but if not you can eventually rely on hammers for gold and research late game as production improvement become optimal, or corporations.

So the key, as far as space, is having more land so you can take advantage of these aspects and produce a lot more beakers.

Still, it's basics for now. That should be the focus.

I would play no lower than prince, but if you play a game slowly with advice from folks here, feel free to try Monarch. It's not that hard if you are improving at the same time.

 

[lymond]

lot of players said the same, but why markets are bad? what if i want to work 2 mechants?
i tend to work lots of merchants for my capital, and run rep its that bad? should y run to settle gs instead of gm?
other question is should i build oxfords and wall street on the same city? (i run rep)

If you want merchants, run caste system in a golden age. Markets are terribly expensive buildings early on. There value may increase late game simply for happiness, and likely at some point late you are switching to caste permanently anyway. (Space Games)

Otherwise, if going for early faster victories, that's a lot of wasted hammers better spent.

Wall Street - Only maybe build in Space games if the situation is right and if I've captured a holy city with a shrine and good religion spread. Only really worth it then, or maybe in a good gp farm where you can run merchants. Wall Street is not a crucial wonder in most games.

merchants in capital..depends I guess. I adjust specialists a lot depending what I need (thinking later game here) But cap is usually Bureau and Ox. If it has citiizens to spare to run specialists, I'd want to maximize beakers in that city..so yeah scientists...unless gold is more of a priority at a given moment.

(keep in mind that I'm speaking in a vacuum here...advanced players tend to micro the heck out of all this stuff the entire game)

its alpha that crucial? should i tech early?

No it is certainly not. Depends on what you want to do. If I'm playing lower levels it's only because it's as dictated by a GOTM or HOF game. If I'm wiping the map in the BCs, then..ha..alpha..not so much. If going for longer games like space, I may want to get alpha early to prop the AI to boost the global tech pace. i.e., I gift them techs. If I don't tech Alpha, the low level AIs are generally very slow to it, so; thusly, I"m delaying that boost and overall success. Alpha is also a good gateway tech in this case leading to Currency, and eliminating its bulb priority Maths is another option though and highly valuable. (all of what I'm saying here changes dramatically on higher levels)

 

[Archon_Wing]

OK, that seems like sound advice. I agree, using lower-difficulty crutches is a bad idea.

TBH I've always gone for caste system and gone representation with merchant/scientist specialist economy spam as soon as possible, so the idea of a cottage economy is still pretty new to me. Wouldn't grassland riverside cottages make cities grow slower, since each pop takes progressively more food but you only get 2f per extra grassland tile, even with granary? Never really learned how to balance farms and cottages; as a rule I always cottage flood plains because 4f early game is just too much, but I don't really know any other guidelines.

I keep hearing around here that I'm not getting SOMETHING fundamental, if not several things - otherwise I would be teching much faster. I whipped my cities to the fullest, tried to get key builds like granary and library (for borders) up ASAP, but still everything seems frustratingly slow.

There's happiness and health caps, so growing that fast isn't always needed. Unproductive citizens are a waste of food and maintenance-- quality over quantity. This is also why a city that overlaps and can work cottages that other cities aren't is a an effective idea.

Also, specialize cities, not empires. The reason why you're slowing down in later ages is because specialists themselves, even with Representation aren't going to be as effective. Great people take more turns to generate the more they appear, and the amount of science they give per bulb remains the same while costs increase. That's why you need form a good commerce base somewhere typically, so you can turn it into research, or failing that turn hammers into money as well.

And for the most part, you should keep your specialists to one city so you can control the great person pool and not have it all willy nilly. Granted, I forget about that in most of my games, but it's still something to keep in mind

 

[lymond]

The reason why you're slowing down in later ages is because specialists themselves, even with Representation aren't going to be as effective. Great people take more turns to generate the more they appear, and the amount of science they give per bulb remains the same while costs increase. That's why you need form a good commerce base somewhere typically, so you can turn it into research, or failing that turn hammers into money as well.

And for the most part, you should keep your specialists to one city so you can control the great person pool and not have it all willy nilly. Granted, I forget about that in most of my games, but it's still something to keep in mind

Sorry ARchon, this is not true what you are saying. yes, you want a good commerce base true, but specialists are always important, especially in Rep..and even later game to when cities are larger. No, you don't not just focus them in once city. Yes, you will generally have a GP Farm that produces a good bulk of the GPs during the game, but other cities will too. And when in golden ages you want as many GPs as you can produce from as many cities as possible. The key early focus is generally Great Scientists for the cap Academy and then the bulb strategy. Great Merchants become more valuable late game when bulb becomes sub-optimal.

However, while you may focus most of these a good portion of the game, having odd GP mix is good too for golden ages, which are very important in the late Space games. So popping a Prophet, Great ARtist or Spy here of there not bad either. Ofc, you can get some free here and there with certain techs too. I like to have up to 5 or 6 Golden Ages in a Space game, if I can.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Sorry ARchon, this is not true what you are saying. yes, you want a good commerce base true, but specialists are always important, especially in Rep..and even later game to when cities are larger. No, you don't not just focus them in once city. Yes, you will generally have a GP Farm that produces a good bulk of the GPs during the game, but other cities will too. And when in golden ages you want as many GPs as you can produce from as many cities as possible. The key early focus is generally Great Scientists for the cap Academy and then the bulb strategy. Great Merchants become more valuable late game when bulb becomes sub-optimal.

However, while you may focus most of these a good portion of the game, having odd GP mix is good too for golden ages, which are very important in the late Space games. So popping a Prophet, Great ARtist or Spy here of there not bad either. Ofc, you can get some free here and there with certain techs too. I like to have up to 5 or 6 Golden Ages in a Space game, if I can.

I didn't mean to say specialists are useless or you should run them nowhere else, but for the most part they decrease in effectiveness relative to what they were. It's no longer the thing where you use to get a massive tech lead over the player. So when I hear about people saying specialist economy or cottage economy and these things aren't mutually exclusive. That is a good point about varying great people for later golden ages; I guess I don't think about that because it happens commonly. So what happens is that people get the bulb to liberalism part fine but then they find out they only have 400 beakers per turn because their commerce is nonexistent.

Then again I guess by that time a lot of people are already planning to win anyways so it doesn't matter.

 

[lymond]

Well, speaking specifically about Space, the rep specialists still provide a lot of beakers. Keep in mind that with Space you want a lot of cities and pop by a certain point in the game, shooting for close to the Domination limit. That's a lot of rep specialists and a lot of beakers. But yeah, you are part right that you do want other foundations for your commerce and research, i.e., cottage cities, rep specs, hammer cities, trade routes, etc. And then you have maps where Corps like Sushi and Mining win the day. Sushis is about food and rep specs.

Ofc, this is generally speaking. There are maps where you may have to use alternative approaches due to there nature.

Bottom line though, in most traditional Space games you want to be shooting for very large BPTs as fast as possible. We're talkin' thousands of beakers per turn, and that comes from a variety of sources. It will blow your mind when you see players kickin' out 10K beakers per turn or more.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, I also won't deny the times when I go to war and at 0% research my research keeps going due to Rep. =p Funny stuff can be done when you're spiritual, especially when it comes to upgrading cannons to artillery..I have a bad tendency to build too many wonders for my own good, and end up settling a bunch of great priests or something. In any case, once I get the university and oxford up, it remains my fallback.

And yea, I guess I forgot the topic was Tech wins for some reason; space tends to be the one I pursue the least. I am pretty bad at that.

 

[lymond]

I'll just throw this screenshot out there from a recent BOTM win by Rusten, who is an uber player. Not a particular space friendly map either. save attached as well. Just for some perspective. (and note that this likely does not truly reflect is bpts at peak as, like me, he does a lot of bulldozing late for parts production, and then once you launch it's all about milking for score)

Spoiler Bitcoin :

I throw this shot in too.. Note the land area percentage in Dom section...key to space, and hard to manage.

Spoiler VC screen :

 

[Fippy]

Difficulty levels are part of the distraction
Other than deity (which is in so peoples can suffer in a fun way..) it does not matter if you play Prince or Immortal, for learning purposes.

Cause it does not matter if you win or finish games.
All important basics can be learned in the early turns, somebody who plays 5x 30 minutes "games" for fine tuning gameplay will do better than somebody else who tries finishing 1 game instead.

But let's take some examples, one underrated topic: fogbusting.
One player might build 2 Axes for barb defense, another might build 2 warriors and put them in the right places so no barbs will show close.
Playing 1 game, it's difficult to improve that. Playing several starts and aiming to monitor barbs and how you should place your guys, you could become an "expert" on that topic ~~

This experience will carry over into all games you play from that point on.
So would training sessions like "fastest academy please, for my Cap".
Or aim at quick granaries in all cities, and focus on slavery.
See how 6 food tiles can in reality be like 15 hammer tiles, for a certain period.

I never was really good at this game, before i took learning step by step.
There are just too many deep mechanics.

On forum games, this learning phase can be replaced by peoples showing you slowly (and most important,without missing or not realizing them) what's the best move (or one of them) in all situations. Instead of finding them out alone.
-------
Then again i will just delete that
Yup you are right, anyways i will be silent about that topic.
I have a tendency complaining about botm maps currently.

 

[lymond]

Cause it does not matter if you win or finish games.
All important basics can be learned in the early turns, somebody who plays 5x 30 minutes "games" for fine tuning gameplay will do better than somebody else who tries finishing 1 game instead.
.

ha..this is one of the single best pieces of advice for any newish player, and also one the seems the hardest to impress upon them

(lol..and then you have the newbies that pop in here with their huge/mara games)

My - actually that particular game was an unaltered Arboria map. Nothing special about. But anyway, that wasn't the point with the screenies. It was just showing what could be done.

 

[yyeah]

Well, actually I found out I never actually connected the marble so that sucked; should have been better.

I did get Civil Service by 75 AD (how far off is that), though I did waste time on some other tech. But yea education seemed far off, probably needed bulbs.

I'm sure better players could get better dates but then again the super fast turns tend to come from cherry picked starts.

Spoiler :

I quickly played it on and have made some mistakes , date can be for sure improoved

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

I quickly played it on and have made some mistakes , date can be for sure improoved

On one hand, that's certainly a fast civil service, at least by my standards. On the other hand...looking at the minimap, are you sure you have enough land? You could always go conquering, but I'd imagine that gets harder the more the AI develops, and I thought that went against what other people told me, which was to first grab land as fast as possible BEFORE worrying about science slider or bpt? And I'm pretty sure I had about that much BPT by that turn number (83); just, I used Oracle on CoL instead (was afraid someone might get it, but apparently on noble, the AI again IS a pushover...).

Either way, I'm kinda beginning to tire of this map. Tomorrow I may start a new game; if I do, I'll post it here for sure. Thanks for all the help, guys!

 

[lymond]

and I thought that went against what other people told me, which was to first grab land as fast as possible BEFORE worrying about science slider or bpt? And I'm pretty sure I had about that much BPT by that turn number (83); just, I used Oracle on CoL instead (was afraid someone might get it, but apparently on noble, the AI again IS a pushover...).

ha..my favorite phrase around here - "it's all relative". yyeah is an advanced player who just showed you what we call a CS sling via oracle. This is a ploy the can be quite effective a possible up to Emperor level, but nigh impossible on IMM+. 4 cities is ok around 800 bc if you know what you are doing, and honestly when you get to Deity level it is often all you can afford or have available in some cases. Deity players know how to work with this. In this case, yyeah worked a smaller/compact empire to keep maintenance low as possible so he tech canas fast as possible the prereqs to CS, plus Priesthood path.

(and I would not focus on a bpt number you see now..trust me yyeah is going to have far more beakers at 1AD and have shimmied down the tech path much much farther than you can imagine)

yyeah, can easily break out from this position from a number of different methods. Also, now that he as the CS sling in pocket, he can start expanding more rapidly one way or another.

edit: ha..and yyeah is actually at war by the way

Anyway, I would not focus on that particular tactic at the moment.

But..no..i think you misunderstood or misinterpreted what some folks are saying (also you are getting in some case a wide variety and range of input). Expansion comes in "phases" so to speak, and there are also different ways to do so. Right now though most of us are trying to get you focused.

One can certainly try the rexx/recover approach on certain maps, or the conquest/recover. We recommend empire building for now so you learn some basic mechanics that apply to most all situations, then build from there. What I'd like to see is a balance between the expansion or conquest, economy building, etc., as well as just being in a position to make better decisions and choices.

yep..start a new map

 

[Archon_Wing]

On one hand, that's certainly a fast civil service, at least by my standards. On the other hand...looking at the minimap, are you sure you have enough land? You could always go conquering, but I'd imagine that gets harder the more the AI develops, and I thought that went against what other people told me, which was to first grab land as fast as possible BEFORE worrying about science slider or bpt? And I'm pretty sure I had about that much BPT by that turn number (83); just, I used Oracle on CoL instead (was afraid someone might get it, but apparently on noble, the AI again IS a pushover...).

Either way, I'm kinda beginning to tire of this map. Tomorrow I may start a new game; if I do, I'll post it here for sure. Thanks for all the help, guys!

It actually isn't that big of a deal as long as you have good cities (production or commerce). Usually you want 6 cities to build universities for Oxford, but remember that you can cram more cities in the land you cover.as long as you share food resources so they can grow initially.

If you are able to block off land either by your culture or just by putting cities, you don't need to move at that fast of a pace. Granted, on this map you would need to go sorta fast.

And yea start a new map. If it makes you feel any better, that game didn't end up very good for me because of the mistakes I made. Wasn't spacebound at all.

Spoiler :

 

[yyeah]

On one hand, that's certainly a fast civil service, at least by my standards. On the other hand...looking at the minimap, are you sure you have enough land? You could always go conquering, but I'd imagine that gets harder the more the AI develops, and I thought that went against what other people told me, which was to first grab land as fast as possible BEFORE worrying about science slider or bpt? And I'm pretty sure I had about that much BPT by that turn number (83); just, I used Oracle on CoL instead (was afraid someone might get it, but apparently on noble, the AI again IS a pushover...).

Either way, I'm kinda beginning to tire of this map. Tomorrow I may start a new game; if I do, I'll post it here for sure. Thanks for all the help, guys!

Yes 4 cities isnt too much but i didnt focus on exp. I have 4 beocuse it was just good to whip settlers in to something. I bulid GLH, Oracle, and start working on ToA since this spot isnt cottage capitol but had enough of food to be big like "trade routes center".

Idea was to expand a bit, and conquer cities, i didnt want to conquer early beocuse theres nothing to conquer, well one can conquer but what you get is undeveloped land.
Better to just wait until ais develop themselfs a bit and then take the cities from them.
One can rush with warriors but its is just for fun like @Fippy did, to gain something one needs to just wait.

I forgot to add what is allso against early conquering is one have to pay huge maintence( maybe not that huge on this lvl) later bulid a road or sth idk what waste turns of workers.
And one cant even steal a worker v early i went to DeG and was like wheres my worker dude .

If you think who can be ezy conquer heres as 1st DeG is best option reasons are everybody hates him usually, so no negative diplo bonuses.
And one can be connected via sailing with hes capitol.

 

[Fippy]

You could always go conquering, but I'd imagine that gets harder the more the AI develops, and I thought that went against what other people told me, which was to first grab land as fast as possible BEFORE worrying about science slider or bpt?

Well it's really important understanding that good or fast games can be played in many ways, i have broken out from 3 cities at 500 AD on deity in some games and won (so have others).

It's a game where you are usually wrong in thinking "that's impossible".
That also means there are huge differences between player skills, general discussion forum is usually bad for this and so Lymond among others request threads being moved here.

You can usually spot questionable advice when there are just too many numbers and "have this and that by this time" (if it's not used for examples, but in a way that keeps telling you it's a must have).

You can stay at 6 cities on high diff. levels cos there a) is not enuf good land left to keep expanding or b) you know you can get your desired military tech with what you have and just take that land later.
Or you could rush with let's say HA and have anywhere from 10-20 cities in the BCs, only 3 of which you built yourself.

Skill in this game does not come from aiming for a certain date, but by experience in judging situations and knowing what you can do with them (for fun or efficiency). It's why playing many games is so important, rather than finishing some huge ones. If you want to really improve, ofc just having fun always counts as good reason as well

Beaker numbers are another great example for this.
If you collect gold before your great scientist is born, and build an academy in your Cap with a gold mine and some nice cottages, you are using advanced & good thinking. After the academy (and libraries too ofc) you get more research for your gold.
If you look at your slider and worry about getting from 40% to 50%, but have not raised a GS for an academy, you are still in newbie territory.