Feminism

[Cutlass]

The thing you have to keep in mind is that pay gaps and discrimination persist because they are profit maximizing activities. So long as the employer can do this, they will, because they maximize their own best interest by doing so.

Relevant Podcast:

April 10, 2014 at 10:00 AM

The New Realities Of The ‘Soft War’ On Women In The Workplace

Hillary Clinton and Sheryl Sandberg’s success suggests growing opportunity for women but our guests say the reality for most women is much less rosy.

*With Guest Host Jessica Yellin.

Ladies, you’ve probably heard: if you want to rise at work it’s up to you. Lean in! And guys, have you seen the news that with women’s advances, boys are being left behind? Hillary Clinton. Marissa Mayer. Sheryl Sandberg. Three strong women on top means the glass ceiling is gone. Right? Wrong. The authors of a new book say more subtle forms of bias in the workplace are preventing women from advancing on their merit. They call it a new “Soft War on Women”. This hour, On Point: women at work — the facts and the fight.
Guests

Caryl Rivers, author, journalist and professor of journalism at Boston University. Her new book, with Rosalind Barnett, is “The New Soft War on Women: How the Myth of Female Ascendance Is Hurting Women, Men — and Our Economy.” Also co-author of “The Truth About Girls and Boys: Challenging Toxic Stereotypes About Our Children” and “Same Difference: How Gender Myths Are Hurting Our Relationships, Our Children and Our Jobs.”

Rosalind Barnett, clinical psychologist and senior scientist at Brandeis University’s Women’s Studies Research Center. Her new book, with Caryl Rivers,The New Soft War on Women: How the Myth of Female Ascendance Is Hurting Women, Men — and Our Economy.” Also co-author of “The Truth About Girls and Boys: Challenging Toxic Stereotypes About Our Children” and “Same Difference: How Gender Myths Are Hurting Our Relationships, Our Children and Our Jobs.”

Amalia Miller, professor of economics at the University of Virginia.
From The Reading List

Los Angeles Times: For women, it’s not a glass ceiling but a plugged pipeline — “The direct, in-your-face gender discrimination of the past has faded, but bias hasn’t vanished. It’s just gone underground and is growing. Under a veneer of “progress,” what we call the new soft war on women is gaining momentum, based on stubborn stereotypes about what women can’t do.”

Boston Globe: Authors work to reveal hidden gender bias — “Women are still discriminated against in the workplace, they say, but the discrimination has become harder to detect, hidden in subtle biases such as mothers being seen as less dedicated to their work and less deserving of raises or promotions.”

Slate: Women May Be Underrepresented in STEM Because They’re Too Concerned With Grades – “Focusing too hard on grades is a myopic concern, but it’s not necessarily an irrational one. I bet that women are interested in excelling at school because they know they can, and I bet they’d do the same in STEM fields if the jobs presented them similar prospects for success.”

 

[Terxpahseyton]

As for domestic violence and sexual violence. We have laws in place to deal with that and society is revolted by it.

One could even make the argument that the public attitude towards violence is sexist against men. Who bets an eye when a woman gives a man a slap? Just saying

On the other hand, there is this term "rape culture". Not entirely sure what this entails, but one has to acknowledge all those misogynist rap songs or that the objectifying of women is going strong in many ways.
But what to do against that? Obviously you can decry crystal-clear misogyny. But Quackers is right that this already got a pretty bad rep. So what else? Men objectify because sexual attraction is essentially objectifying. The question just is if this act of objectifying cancels out the fact that there also is a person. But there is no way I see to really fight this other than to fight objectification in general. Which comes down to fighting public embracing of male solely sexual desires.
Saudi-Arabia got some ideas for that.
Otherwise, I agree with Quakers and think we are largely stuck with douche bags who just won't keep the objectifying in check and ignore the person. That is just males for you.

edit @Cutlass
Yes, regardless of my opinion of the wage gap, this is exactly where I still see a place for feminism.

 

[warpus]

The video I remember seeing about this a couple weeks ago admitted that women going into disciplines that pay less in general contributes to the problem, as well as the fact that women are far more likely than men to take up part-time positions due to the whole motherhood and related stuff thing.

At the time it appeared as though the majority of studies supported the position that women make almost the same as men in the U.S. if you control for all the proper variables, but if that's incorrect then that would change my position of course.

So our economy punishes women for the biological reality that they bear children.

Yeah, it seems so, by virtue of part-time workers having less protections under the law in terms of what sort of stuff they're entitled to. Women definitely get the short end of the stick here, on average. Putting in more protections there in federal law for part-time workers and maternity/paternity leave would go a long way. (or state level or whatever works out politically - as long as it happens in the whole country. makes sense to make it a federal issue for that reason to me, but I must concede that in America certain things are not viable on the federal level due to ideological beliefs of a lot of people. )

Economists generally attribute about 40% of the pay gap to discrimination – making about 60% explained by differences between workers or their jobs.

Among the BLS’s thirteen industry categories, women make less than men in every single one. What this means is that even in “women’s fields,” men are going to rake in more.

I have no idea about the numbers, I've seen variying rangers of figures quoted by various people and publications. I'm no expert on the issue, nor do I want to spend time reading up on who might possibly be right here.. so I must bow out of that part of the discussion..

but if there's gender based discrimination of any sort it must be stopped. I agree with that 100%.

It's just that the statement "men make more than women on average" is sometimes thrown around, often with inflated figures, making one think that discrimination is the majority of the problem. That doesn't appear to be the case, so saying something like that might actually be damaging to the efforts of attempting to bridge the gender wage gap, because there you are (not you you) focusing all your energy on discrimination (which I agree needs to be eradicated), while the part-time issue and women being pushed into disciplines that tend not to pay as well issue are left under(wo)manned. Gender roles are a part of the problem, and it will take a lot of time to make people trying to shoehorn new humans into gender roles stop.. so it's not an easy battle.. But it has to be a part of the battle if you want true gender wage equality.

 

[Senethro]

Aren't you a male too?
Your opinion is equally worthless than. What does that make non-feminist women than? I'm guessing they're brainwashed or that they have "internalised misorgny" am i rite?

You seem to have enough expectations about what people might have said (but didn't) to think that you've done some reading around of this topic already. Doesn't change the fact you're asking the wrong people though. Might as well ask white people about their experience of racism or rich people about income inequality.

 

[Pegasus_77]

You think stay-at-home fathers face less shaming?

I honestly want a girl who can makes me a stay -at -home father. I love kids. But I also love my girl and dont want her to shoulder the financial burden of my family so i get perplexed. Maybe if i have a small business which does not consume much of my energy , then i can be a stay -at -home dad and a considerate husband who take care of my gentle wife at the same time.
I really look forward to this lifestyle.

 

[Pegasus_77]

Feminism has multiple meanings in the eyes of different people.
some people think it refers to the equal rights of 2 genders, whereas the radical fraction thinks that women shall regain the dominance just like in Stone Age.

 

[caketastydelish]

Women used to overwhelmingly dominate computer programming

I'd like some statistics to prove this.

 

[Pegasus_77]

Belittling any gender is not right. But i suppose it is just not that bad as people may think. The social norm or traditional value always put women at a back seat while men at a harder job position, which is justifiable to some extent. some jobs are more suitable for men rather than women, like fighting as soldiers ,carrying luggages as porters. Physically, men are stronger on the whole. Gender differences do exist and people can not ignore them.

 

[Evie]

This thread, and the sheer amount of clueless male chauvinism in it, is all the evidence I could ever need we still need feminism.

Even if we had dealt with the trivialization and victim-blaming that surround rape. Even if all issues of pay equality had been resolved. Even if the internet and geek culture on it wasn't blatant evidence of double standards. Even if women's right over their own body weren,t constantly challenged by male legislators. Even if there weren't elected representatives out there making completely horrific statements about rape. Even if this thread didn't exist as a showcase of how disconnected from women's realities so many men are.

Even if all these things were true, they would be recent gains, and fragile gains, like most feminist gains, and feminist would still be needed to avoid reactionary attempts to undo these gains.

 

[luiz]

Well it points out that even excluding those things, there is still a disparity. So it is not true that there is no pay gap when you take that into account, no matter how many times folks like to repeat that. It also points out that explaining away the entire disparity as the result of women taking a hit on their career for child birth is only addressing part of the issue. For instance I think mandatory paid maternity leave is a baseline level employment benefit that the United States amazingly does not have, and which leads to pay disparities here that you do not see in countries where women enjoy that a benefit.

The disparity is fairly minimum once everything is taken into consideration according to the studies I've seen.

I do think paid maternity leave is a good policy, but it won't eliminate the differences. Decrease them, yes, but they'll remain.

Even if you disregard this and go with your 96% figure, that's still 4% less isn't it?

This makes no sense. The difference in median wage between men and women in the US, not accounting for any factor, is 19%. This study claims that all accounted for they still found a 20% difference. Something's not right.

The 4% difference is in line with what I've seen, after all is accounted for. So really no discrimination.

 

[JollyRoger]

A smaller than 3% tax increase is considered tyranny.

 

[Narz]

I don't particularly like the word (feminism) but there are a lot of unique problems females have to face that I wish they didn't. The reality of how many victims of sexual abuse there are in the world is one serious problem for instance. I know a huge amount of women (more than 1/2 the women I've dated) who've dealt with this at some point in their lives (I think countrywide estimates are about 1/3 of all women have dealt with sexual abuse/rape at some point, often as kids).

Obviously males also suffered sexual abuse but not to the same degree.

I like "human rights" more than the word feminism as it tends to be less divisive.

 

[Gary Childress]

I offer to carry heavy things for people who I think are weaker than me. A larger majority of women look weaker than me than the majority of men who look weaker than me.

This is a good point. If this gesture is (or can be) done with a real sense of moral benevolence then I don't see where anyone can say it's "wrong". However, the way our society is set up, helping others with the workload is not always a good thing for that other person I don't think.

Let's say I am being paid for a job. You, being better at the job than I am, continually find yourself helping me carry my load because you are a nice guy and don't want to see me struggle so much. Well, when push comes to shove, that can easily get me fired or prevent me from getting promoted if the boss begins to perceive that I am not as good at it as maybe others are and times are lean and someone has to go. So in a sense it's really a catch 22 situation I guess. You are helping me but at the same time you are also hurting me by showing me up with your superior ability. It's not a very comfortable feeling in our society to feel like you are not good at your job or not needed or not earning your fair share.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with a male holding the door open for a female however I would think it could also serve as a kind of subtle reminder or reinforcement of how "fragile" and "needy" they are compared to the "real" breadwinners in society. For this reason I always try to be nice and slam the door in women's faces.

 

[Hygro]

I'd like some statistics to prove this.

I just saw the same article. Can't remember where.

 

[Benefactor]

I wonder if I'd been born a girl instead of a boy would my life now still be pretty much the same.

 

[Traitorfish]

Missing out the most important point here which is that men are almost equally at risk of domestic and sexual violence anyway. Not to mention far far far FAR more likely to be a victim of violence overall.

Well, the questionable "almost equally",the people present a threat to men are primarily other men, so that doesn't really suggest that feminists discussions of violence and gender are irrelevant. It's not as if men and women are trading blows in equal numbers.

Equal pay is here already. The gap is a myth.

That really isn't borne out by the evidence.

Equal career and educational opportunities. In the UK/USA woman do better at school and better at undergraduate level than men. Women are more numerous at university. They are also encouraged to go into fields where men typically dominate.

Not untrue, but it seems oblivious to the role of culture in shaping how individuals and institutions operate. It's not enough to simply say that figures for entry into higher education are at least 50/50, and call it a day.

As for domestic violence and sexual violence. We have laws in place to deal with that and society is revolted by it. It is a utopian idea to think we can ever fully end it. We are doing as much as we can to limit it as much as possible.

Again, culturally oblivious.

Equal representation in popular culture. That covers so much ground. So we should only have 50:50 art galleries and so on? A play should have exactly a 50:50 split M/F?

Can't see why not. I'm not proposing that we enact quotas to that effect, but I don't see why we shouldn't want cultural institutions to reflect their world in which they exist.

Comprehensive access to family planning. Yup we have that already. Even very young teenage girls in this country can get the morning afterpill from a doctor without the knowledge of their parents. Other contraceptives are offered freely if you've ever been in a "clinic". Short of getting it freely delivered to your door, or a helpful government official is nearby to hand you a condom seconds before the act; ahem, we are doing well.

The UK is pretty good on this stuff, I agree. But the UK is not perfect, the UK's gains are not irreversible, and the UK is not the entirety of the Western world, let alone the West.

In conclusion,

This thread, and the sheer amount of clueless male chauvinism in it, is all the evidence I could ever need we still need feminism.

This.

 

[Quackers]

You're completely wrong on the gender pay gap. I could also summon a link in my favour. I could also link you reports where in many cities in the USA, women under 30 are paid more than men! Once you account for a whole range of variables it shrinks to 0.

It isn't a 50:50 slip at undergraduate either TF. Women now make up over 50%. So are you, as a feminist, going to approve methods to allow more men to get into university?

Anyway, you mention culture a lot. Gimme some details on that.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well, the questionable "almost equally",the people present a threat to men are primarily other men, so that doesn't really suggest that feminists discussions of violence and gender are irrelevant. It's not as if men and women are trading blows in equal numbers.

Firstly, in terms of domsetic violence it pretty much is men and women trading blows in equal numbers.

Secondly, even if you were right, so what? Men can't be considered victims of other men, because they're all men so all equally to blame?! If I get mugged and stabbed and left for dead with my face beaten in, it's only an atrocity if a woman did it to me?

 

[MilesGregarius]

This thread, and the sheer amount of clueless male chauvinism in it, is all the evidence I could ever need we still need feminism.

Even if we had dealt with the trivialization and victim-blaming that surround rape. Even if all issues of pay equality had been resolved. Even if the internet and geek culture on it wasn't blatant evidence of double standards. Even if women's right over their own body weren,t constantly challenged by male legislators. Even if there weren't elected representatives out there making completely horrific statements about rape. Even if this thread didn't exist as a showcase of how disconnected from women's realities so many men are.

Even if all these things were true, they would be recent gains, and fragile gains, like most feminist gains, and feminist would still be needed to avoid reactionary attempts to undo these gains.

Quoted for truth.

 

[caketastydelish]

I just saw the same article. Can't remember where.

Either way, it doesn't change my point. Women are overwhelmingly not choosing (these days) to enter tech fields. If this helps though, I actually do support the idea of mothers getting paid while taking care of a baby. It would not only support the mother, but presumably the entire family she's with.

Still, women do tend to go to less profitable fields, and that can not be ignored. I look at both sides of the equation.