[RD] Feminism

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: Due to the heated nature of the claim being set forth in this RD thread, please remember that trolling and witty one-liners are not welcome. Finding the viewpoint being offered reprehensible is fine; it is up to you to present your disagreement respectfully and with detail. Since this thread is an off-shoot of a non-RD thread that had to be closed, this one will be more heavily moderated. In other words: everyone is on a short leash. Play nicely or don't play at all. Thank you!

 

[caketastydelish]

But actually, nobody has to work on an oil rig. As I pointed out in another thread, these jobs carry with them additional reward for the "danger" aspect that comes with them. People work on oil rigs because they earn more money due to the risk involved. People fight fires because they like the pay or, in the case of volunteers, the status of being a firefighter. Men may be naturally more predisposed to these kinds of jobs both because increased physical strength is an asset and because they are naturally more likely to take risks - but that second part might be a product of social norms and mores, not necessarily an innate trait. Also, the numbers are complicated a bit by the fact that injury-prone professions like Nursing and Veterinary Medicine are mostly done by women.

The oil rig 'danger' jobs are more efficient as capitalism deems it, so it's going to reward those who risk more.

Firefighters are something you definitely couldn't say we don't need. Firefighters saved countless lives on September 11th, (while risking their own lives and in many cases outright dying) and this is just one example.

And if firefighters are dying more than nurses, I don't want to hear "that's their fault for choosing to be a firefighter'. Do you even realize how ignorant that sounds?

 

[caketastydelish]

The large majority of sexual assault and domestic violence victims are women. I wouldn't go so far as to say that makes them the victim of more violent crimes than men generally, but they are depressingly common violent crimes that target women. And they tend to go unreported most of the time. I'm not sure this is a solid conclusion to be making.

Sexual assault yes, domestic violence no. http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

 

[Lexicus]

See, I think this is an example of the evil of feminism. It's putting men and women into these opposing groups. If I get sentenced harshly by a male judge, or beat up by another man, then it is merely my group attacking itself.

Ok, we get it, you don't like feminism, you apparently don't like making real arguments either. So enjoy your [RD].

 

[caketastydelish]

I hope no one interprets my position as anti-feminist, by the way. Most of the actual (female) feminists that I talk to about these issues mostly agree with me.

It's the man self-haters who tend to disagree. If I only listened to the male feminists instead of the female feminists, then I would be legitimately convinced feminism is evil.

And besides, even if some woman 'hates men' I can forgive them more. Maybe they had some bad experiences. But men being uncle toms against themselves is downright pathetic.

Emma Waston (a FEMALE) was the one who converted me to feminism, definitely not any of you guys. Emma Watson also agrees with everything I'm saying.

It should be possible to say "men have most of the advantages" rather than "men have literally every single advantage in the world".

edit: I'm proud to have signed the HeforShe pledge. Thanks, Miss Watson, for introducing me to what real feminism is all about.

 

[Honor]

BTW what is an [RD]?

Nevermind, found out. RD: Real Discussion. More strict thread.

 

[JollyRoger]

JollyRoger, you have already tried this card. I am talking about the ideology, not the people.

And people hold to such an ideology, so thus by extension, you are labeling them as evil and whiny. Feminism is fairly mainstream and is supported by many posters here. Labeling such a belief as evil seems over-the-top, even in a non-RD context.

And you really aren't talking about the ideology as you are the strawman of an ideology that you have constructed to knock down. Mainstream feminism is not evil and is not whiny. It is something that has helped the human race progress over time. Sure, there are some imperfections and parts of the movement that go too far, but for the most part, the world is better off with feminism than we would be without it.

I mean, I could cast an appreciative glance at someone's mother, daughter, wife, or sister, but at some point, my glance will go too far and raise the masculine ire of a father, son, husband or brother.

 

[caketastydelish]

I agree that feminism is not evil but it's not as mainstream as you make it sound. Apparently, only 18% of Americans identify as feminist. That's less than one in five.

http://thelala.com/believe-womens-equality-identify-as-feminist/

Even if people SHOULD be calling themselves feminists (which I'd agree with) that's one thing, but you couldn't say Feminism has entered the mainstream way of life when a solid majority of people aren't even comfortable with the label.

 

[civver_764]

And people hold to such an ideology, so thus by extension, you are labeling them as evil and whiny.

No, that's not how it works. I think the ideology has negative effects on society, and is thus evil. There are different standards for a person being considered evil which must be considered on a case by case basis.

Feminism is fairly mainstream and is supported by many posters here. Labeling such a belief as evil seems over-the-top, even in a non-RD context.

Appeal to popularity?

And you really aren't talking about the ideology as you are the strawman of an ideology that you have constructed to knock down. Mainstream feminism is not evil and is not whiny. It is something that has helped the human race progress over time. Sure, there are some imperfections and parts of the movement that go too far, but for the most part, the world is better off with feminism than we would be without it.

It's not a strawman though. I listed out what I see as the basic premise of feminism, and why it's a problem. As far as helping human race progress, I don't want to get into a historical debate so let's keep this focused on modern society. My contention is that our modern-day society would be better if we ditched feminism in favor of a healthier gender movement.

We all agree that gender equality is a good thing, it's the implementation that matters.

I mean, I could cast an appreciative glance at someone's mother, daughter, wife, or sister, but at some point, my glance will go too far and raise the masculine ire of a father, son, husband or brother.

Not sure what your point here is.

 

[Lexicus]

We all agree that gender equality is a good thing

I don't agree that we all agree on this. It seems like some people want women to shut up, stop whining, and let men tell them what gender equality is.

Incidentally, if you really believed in gender equality you wouldn't be writing posts about how feminism is evil, because a feminist is simply one who believes in gender equality.

 

[Ryika]

The same logic applies to homicides, I'll bet - the vast majority of homicides are targeted, and targeted for a reason. The question is, why are men 4 times as likely to be targeted? The rape analogy doesn't quite hold; women are overwhelmingly the targets of rape because men are overwhelmingly more likely to be rapists, and most men are heterosexual and therefore choose women as their targets. Women can't stop being women. Whereas men aren't targeted for homicide because murderers are inherently drawn to target men for homicide. There are other factors at play.

I agree with this when it comes to homicides , but men are also the main group that is targeted the most by things like being robbed, or being assaulted on the street. Things that they most certainly did not bring onto themselves.

The large majority of sexual assault and domestic violence victims are women. I wouldn't go so far as to say that makes them the victim of more violent crimes than men generally, but they are depressingly common violent crimes that target women. And they tend to go unreported most of the time. I'm not sure this is a solid conclusion to be making.

Sexual violence goes heavily towards women, that's true, but it's also the only type of violent crime (edit: And domestic violence of course), and not one that is as prevalent as other violent crimes, it's only like 7-10% of all offenses, but of course the dark number is expected to be much higher than for other serious crimes.

All other non-sexual, non-domestic violence-related crimes are heavily tilted towards male victims.

 

[civver_764]

I don't agree that we all agree on this. It seems like some people want women to shut up, stop whining, and let men tell them what gender equality is.

Incidentally, if you really believed in gender equality you wouldn't be writing posts about how feminism is evil, because a feminist is simply one who believes in gender equality.

Did you just tell me to shut up after complaining I want women to shut up?

 

[JollyRoger]

No, that's not how it works. I think the ideology has negative effects on society, and is thus evil. There are different standards for a person being considered evil which must be considered on a case by case basis.

Negative effects does not necessarily equate to evil. I think you should probably retract the characterization.

Appeal to popularity?.

Something that is mainstream requires a high degree of proof to label as evil.

It's not a strawman though. I listed out what I see as the basic premise of feminism, and why it's a problem. As far as helping human race progress, I don't want to get into a historical debate so let's keep this focused on modern society. My contention is that our modern-day society would be better if we ditched feminism in favor of a healthier gender movement.

We all agree that gender equality is a good thing, it's the implementation that matters.

It would be a healthy start to not label what you are trying to modify as evil. If implementation is the problem, point out how things can be better implemented. Do not shame others, present a positive solution.

Not sure what your point here is.

My point is that feminism does not consider all affectionate glance as problematic. It is a matter of degree. I'm sure one's reaction to my glance at their mother, daughter, sister, or wife would get more hostile as my glance became more leering. Does that make them an evil feminist? I think not. It makes them human and able to discern between a sociably acceptable glance and something more troublesome.

 

[civver_764]

Negative effects does not necessarily equate to evil. I think you should probably retract the characterization.

It would be a healthy start to not label what you are trying to modify as evil. If implementation is the problem, point out how things can be better implemented. Do not shame others, present a positive solution.

You're right, I'm being a bit too provocative. I admit it is partially for "shock value" to help shift the narrative. As you said, the ideas are feminism are widely accepted. I have been called "hateful" and "misogynistic" just for criticizing feminism. In the other thread Lexicus even made the claim that I abuse all the women in my life, just for criticizing feminist ideas. So in a sense I feel like I need to counter it with a similar amount of aggression. "The best defense is a good offense".

My point is that feminism does not consider all affectionate glance as problematic It is a matter of degree. I'm sure one's reaction to my glance at their mother, daughter, sister, or wife would get more hostile as my glance became more leering? Does that make them an evil feminist? I think not. It makes them human and able to discern between a sociably acceptable glance and something more troublesome.

I think we have a bit of miscommunication here. When I say "Male gaze" I'm referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze. Basically the idea that women looking attractive in art and media is oppressive and objectifying to them.

 

[JollyRoger]

I think we have a bit of miscommunication here. When I say "Male gaze" I'm referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze. Basically the idea that women looking attractive in art and media is oppressive and objectifying to them.

When carried to a certain extent, it is. And that is basically a segment of the feminist movement and not the entire movement. Nevertheless, that is just criticism of patterns in art and media. It doesn't restrict my day-to-day interactions with women.

 

[Lexicus]

Basically the idea that women looking attractive in art and media is oppressive and objectifying to them.

That's not the idea lol did you even read the first sentence of that article

Moderator Action: Again, this is an RD thread. Posts like this are unacceptable. One point infraction. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Perfection]

I reserve the moniker "evil ideology" for ideologies that promote severe human rights abuses.

I don't see how anything OP mentioned lives up to that standard.

 

[civver_764]

When carried to a certain extent, it is. And that is basically a segment of the feminist movement and not the entire movement. Nevertheless, that is just criticism of patterns in art and media. It doesn't restrict my day-to-day interactions with women.

Well if you remember, this originated from my OP where I claimed that feminism is "anti-sex". So I think this definitely falls under that category. I will grant you that this not a universal belief of feminism. This does, however, flow directly from the central feminist premise that women are oppressed and men are privileged.

 

[Senethro]

The OP should maybe offer evidence for its statements, rather than merely asserting they are true. I don't know why he expects posters to rise above his standards to meet RD criteria.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And I have no problem with the idea of gender equality, what I have a problem with is the implementation details, so to speak. That's why I think we need a better movement, one that is more inclusive for women AND men.

I mean, for starters, why is a movement that is for "gender equality" named "feminism"? That certainly seems to suggest a preference for women.

Feminism. Females. It's a movement intended to bring about equality for both sexes. Since women were not equal throughout most of human history (and still aren't in many parts of the world), that's reason enough to call it "feminism."

It sounds great on the surface, but you have to look at what is being implied about men and boys. I knew rape was wrong from the first time I heard the definition of the word. I don't know a single guy that thinks rape is ok. Yet one big idea of feminism is that we live in some sort of "rape culture", and a negative consequence of this is that men are shamed and treated as inherently violent.[/quote
"Rape culture" is something relatively new to me. It's only in the last couple of years that I've heard of it. But given that I never go to bars and it's been over 20 years since my last college course (and parties are something I never was into in college, either), it's not something I've been exposed to personally. That's not to say I've never been in potentially dangerous situations, but thankfully I was able to get out of those situations before anything happened. They did give me a scare, though, and incentive to be more careful. The "trust your instincts" about feeling a situation could be dangerous is a sound piece of advice.

So it's great that you and every guy you know knows rape is wrong. What a shame that every man on the planet doesn't share that knowledge.

I consider myself a feminist. You've posted a lot of drivel in this thread and others about how nasty, evil, bad, wrong, etc. feminists are. Therefore, this IS, to some extent, about me. It's also about every other feminist on this forum, and I include both men and women in that. As I said previously:

Valka, that is patently untrue. Look at my posts in this thread, I haven't made any such claims about feminists. Please stick to what I actually said.

What part of my post are you accusing me of lying about? Don't be pedantic about the adjectives I used. They are apt, and you should be honest enough to acknowledge that. And don't forget: The word "evil" is in the thread title. You can't wiggle out of that, or accuse me of lying when I say you used it.

You are not required to post in this thread you know.

Ah, the classic "shut up, this thread is about women, so you should have no reason to post in it" comeback. Been there, done that, heard it before in numerous threads on this forum that dealt with women-related issues. That is sooo several years ago.

I just thought I'd save you the trouble of posting all this if you could see that you're not the first guy to start troublesome threads like this.

Why is it so typical for people on the left to throw out crazy accusations like this? What have I said in this thread that is misogynistic or hateful?

Cutlass is making an excellent point, and his political affiliation should have nothing to do with it. He's a decent person who respects women.

JollyRoger, you have already tried this card. I am talking about the ideology, not the people.

He's pointing out the inconsistency of your position.

BTW what is an [RD]?

Nevermind, found out. RD: Real Discussion. More strict thread.

AKA "Red Diamond" (we don't have that icon with this new XenForo forum). I have always disliked the idea that RD threads are "real" discussion and that no real discussion occurs in the non-RD threads. But yes, the moderation is stricter.

Appeal to popularity?

Appeal to common sense and pointing out the general views of this forum's culture.

It's not a strawman though. I listed out what I see as the basic premise of feminism, and why it's a problem. As far as helping human race progress, I don't want to get into a historical debate so let's keep this focused on modern society. My contention is that our modern-day society would be better if we ditched feminism in favor of a healthier gender movement.

So you don't want to acknowledge the reason why feminism started in the first place. History matters, because women have not had equality or even status as legal persons for most of recorded history.

I don't agree that we all agree on this. It seems like some people want women to shut up, stop whining, and let men tell them what gender equality is.

Yep, there is a lot of mansplaining going on in this thread. I would have thought the OP might have understood this from the other thread, as to why mansplaining is a problem.

Incidentally, if you really believed in gender equality you wouldn't be writing posts about how feminism is evil, because a feminist is simply one who believes in gender equality.

Exactly.

@caketastydelish: Keep in mind that there are lots of female cops, firefighters, and rig workers. Remind me to dig up the news articles about the rampant sexual harassment in the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police). That is one hell of a sexist organization, and it's far from anything Canada should take pride in anymore.