FfH2 0.20 Balance Feedback

[Blakmane]

I think i'm in agreement with this talk of hyborem coming out too early. On a large map, 8 or so civs, noble difficulty, I can rush hyborem before the AI even has axemen. His starting force is enough to eradicate the entire continent in a matter of turns- I don't even bother founding my cities.

Basium: How's this for a solution to the angel problem?

1: Only units from civs with The Order religion should not become angels. It makes no sense that units from kilmorph/leaves civs would become angels, and it cuts down on his total angel intake.

and 2: Basium should not gain angels for units the mercurians kill themselves. Currently the most viable (and productive) strategy with basium is just to declare war on all good civs, rake in the angels and then smash down everyone else. This is counter intuitive and overpowered. By disabling him from killing good alignment units for angels, He'll be forced to act in a more sensible manner (ie trying to get good civs to declare war on evil civs)

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I think i'm in agreement with this talk of hyborem coming out too early. On a large map, 8 or so civs, noble difficulty, I can rush hyborem before the AI even has axemen. His starting force is enough to eradicate the entire continent in a matter of turns- I don't even bother founding my cities.

Basium: How's this for a solution to the angel problem?

1: Only units from civs with The Order religion should not become angels. It makes no sense that units from kilmorph/leaves civs would become angels, and it cuts down on his total angel intake.

With the reduced number of units with the religion promos, I don't know if it'll be necessary to cut the number effetively in half. I'd wait awhile to see if it needs to be rebalanced.

and 2: Basium should not gain angels for units the mercurians kill themselves. Currently the most viable (and productive) strategy with basium is just to declare war on all good civs, rake in the angels and then smash down everyone else. This is counter intuitive and overpowered. By disabling him from killing good alignment units for angels, He'll be forced to act in a more sensible manner (ie trying to get good civs to declare war on evil civs)

I'd support this, if it can be done; just because it makes sense, if for nothing else.

 

[Nimbus]

and 2: Basium should not gain angels for units the mercurians kill themselves. Currently the most viable (and productive) strategy with basium is just to declare war on all good civs, rake in the angels and then smash down everyone else. This is counter intuitive and overpowered. By disabling him from killing good alignment units for angels, He'll be forced to act in a more sensible manner (ie trying to get good civs to declare war on evil civs)

I would disagree with this. I was in a game as Basium and between 3 turns before the gate came in and 3 turns after the gate came in every single civ (11 out of 16) that did not have The Order declared war on me. If the computer is going to dogpile every non order religion against me then those units that are considered good should have that 20% chance of turning into Angels no matter who ends up killing them.

I am glad to see that the chance to get an Angel is being reduced to 20% instead of the 100% that was in testing. I would also be in favor of changing the Iron they get with their palace to Bronze. This should slow down their Str somewhat as building new buildings and researching new techs can be very difficult for them. But think the XP for their Angels should be left alone. Their Angels being able to be upgraded depends on their XP level and a qualifying tech. Outside of spell-casters they are the only ones off the top of my head that have that requirement, and they do not get the free XP that spell-casters get per turn, nor do they have the advantage of starting out as warriors, etc and gaining xp throughout the game before being upgraded.

 

[Blakmane]

I would disagree with this. I was in a game as Basium and between 3 turns before the gate came in and 3 turns after the gate came in every single civ (11 out of 16) that did not have The Order declared war on me. If the computer is going to dogpile every non order religion against me then those units that are considered good should have that 20% chance of turning into Angels no matter who ends up killing them.

The fact that the current system may occasionally require wholesale slaughter of good civs in order to keep up your angel count does not excuse it from being counter intuitive and (most importantly imo) the total opposite of basium's flavour. Hyborem turning on evil civs for mane farming makes sense. Basium turning on good civs for angel farming does NOT.

Problems like the one you had could be easily fixed by simply modifying the warscript to make good civs less likely to declare war on basium. There's no reason for kilmorph and leaves to be hating on him.

 

[Sandro]

I am surprised that no one has commented on the "Sacrifice the Weak" civic, which I find to be extremely powerful. I am still in my first "Fire" game however, so can't say whether it is unbalanced or not yet.

 

[Yoshi2942]

Funny Sandro.. just popped on here to post what I'm finding in my latest game.. thereby modifying a statement I made earlier... and it relates.

First, I mentioned that I find Magic in Fire to be pretty much dead ... Correction - The Sheaim are pretty good at achieving usefull magic. In the current game, I'm running the Sheaim.. the entire game is crazy; everyone is attacking everyone. I've done my best to just cause damage.. summoned the bigboy, improved my relations with the demon.. Friendly.. We definately aren't strong enough to roll the map; specially since Basium is next door, but it is an enjoyable game.

I am using Sac the Weak - and the only thing that makes the Civic worthwhile is the 1/2 food. It is actually very difficult to tell whether it is even with other civic routes.. but it doesn't seem overly powerful to me. My cities are all very sick, but the populations are high enough to be worthwhile. Personally I usually feel more comfortable with huge 40+ population centers using Way of Leaves, but am having fun with the Sheaim.

To summarize: I wanted to like the Sheaim in Light - but never did. They were boring. In Fire I very much am enjoying the Sheaim a lot. The portals are great! I've only gotten a few different critters out of it so far; I'd like to see a wide selection of critters - all the animals could come out, hill giants, lots and lots of different things. Tar Demon is funny.

 

[Sandro]

I am using Sac the Weak - and the only thing that makes the Civic worthwhile is the 1/2 food.

My game is a bit similar, except I didn't get to summon the Big Boy (was beaten by 2 turns to Ashen Veil), but got a Savant with the tech so could spread the religion on my continent anyways. The powerful thing is the combination of the "slavery sacrifice pop to build" and the 1/2 food. Also I find that production/cottage powerhouses are very easy to establish and maintain with the low food requirement - farms are almost redundant. Coast towns with lighthouses also benefit massively...

But I see your point with The Leaves - one tend to forget that many of the civs and civics look overpowered when examined individually

 

[onedreamer]

I remember reporting this for TAM as well:
a free Great Engineer awarded with a tech (Engineering) which also allows a wonder (which btw gives engineer GPP) is always a bad idea IMO. Maybe move the Guild of Endeavors to Machinery or the Engineer to Machinery.

 

[marioflag]

I remember reporting this for TAM as well:
a free Great Engineer awarded with a tech (Engineering) which also allows a wonder (which btw gives engineer GPP) is always a bad idea IMO. Maybe move the Guild of Endeavors to Machinery or the Engineer to Machinery.

I agree with this statement

 

[onedreamer]

another thing, Os-Gabella having Despotism as fav. civic is a bit penalizing for the AI, since its tactics are mostly based on expansion and 25% additional cost for number of cities (Despotism) doesn't help with that. Os-Gabella has always been crappy in any game I played, already from Light.

 

[pa12ick]

Regarding hell terrain, the inability to do much with desert/floodplain tiles means that when they catch fire, they're unusable. I understand doing it w/ the desert only tiles, but floodplain had a significant water source...

I recommend that when they convert, they become something other than Burning Sands ONLY.

 

[Xanikk999]

How about making it so instead of a city with ashen viel or order not being able to have both or one of the other once it has one, allow it to have 50% of getting rid of the order or ashen viel and replacing it with the other one if you try to spread it there?

 

[Schmoe]

I haven't even played a complete game of Fire yet, so I don't have any real experience to back this up. But...

Has there been any thought to scaling the Armeggedon counter to the size and speed of the map? It seems to me that in a Duel map on Quick speed, the Armeggedon counter will stay low the whole game, due to very few cities to be razed. On the other hand, a Huge map on Marathon speed will most likely see a very high Armeggedon counter for most of the game, due to all of the size 1 barbarian cities being razed.

I have a similar suggestion for the Khazad vault levels. I have just about achieved a Domination victory in a Huge, Marathon game as the Khazad. For this game, I've had overflowing vaults for the last 800+ turns. IMO, the vault levels need to be scaled both to the size of the map, as well as to the speed of the game.

The number of cities you need to maintain in order to be competitive increases with the size of the map. This means you need much more money in your vaults to remain competitive. I think vault levels should be higher for smaller maps and lower for larger maps.

The amount of time you have to acquire gold for your vaults is directly proportional to the speed of the game. On a Standard map, you are much more likely to have the time to achieve overflowing vaults on Marathon speed than you are on Quick speed. I think vault levels should be lower for quicker speeds and higher for slower speeds.

Look at it this way. If you need 20 cities to dominate a Small map, that means you need 10,000 gp to have overflowing vaults throughout your Domination victory. Lets say it will take you 200 turns to dominate the world. On Marathon speed, you could spend 1400 turns earning +7 gpt to build up your vaults, then spend the next 200 turns dominating the world. On Standard speed, you would need to find a way to earn +21 gpt for 460 turns to build up your vaults. That's a huge difference.

 

[onedreamer]

I have a similar suggestion for the Khazad vault levels. [...]
The number of cities you need to maintain in order to be competitive increases with the size of the map. This means you need much more money in your vaults to remain competitive. I think vault levels should be higher for smaller maps and lower for larger maps.

Although I agree about the Armageddon Counter, I disagree on this one, because the vault works on a per-city logic. More cities = more money produced. It's not a problem of maintenance IMO but of gold produced. A city will produce the same amount of gold in a small map than it would if it was placed in a large map with same terrain, improvements etc. The maintenance costs are a different thing and are already scaled with map.

 

[Sureshot]

one of despotism, conquest, military discipline, or military state civics should get the Military Garrison Happiness bonus

all four make sense for it and most of them aren't serious competitors for their categories as is.

 

[Maniac]

I remember reporting this for TAM as well:
a free Great Engineer awarded with a tech (Engineering) which also allows a wonder (which btw gives engineer GPP) is always a bad idea IMO. Maybe move the Guild of Endeavors to Machinery or the Engineer to Machinery.

another thing, Os-Gabella having Despotism as fav. civic is a bit penalizing for the AI, since its tactics are mostly based on expansion and 25% additional cost for number of cities (Despotism) doesn't help with that. Os-Gabella has always been crappy in any game I played, already from Light.

I like the way you think.
Both of this (and all other techs that give two one-time boni) has been addressed in Rise of Mania (now Fire compatible).

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Some more things that are so minor that they just don't belong into the bug section:

- Air Node uses the wrong symbol (body mana) on the mein map - in cities it shows up correctly.

- In the new teh tree you can reasearch mithril working without have the tech that reveals mithril as requirement. Seems kind of wierd.

- The Altar of the Lunnonator (stage IV? - don't know if it applies to all...) seems to give the blessed promotion to all your units, not only those build in the city that has it.

- Founding cities in hell terrian (played as neutral) just removes the hell terrian instantly. I think that is neither fun nor realistic. It should take more time and work to get the land fertile again. A true reason for people to get the sanctify spell.

 

[Arpymaster]

There should be a note saying the sheaim can't built the Altar of Lun... I have a great prophet and can't built it. So I guess only good and neutral civs can built it.

 

[Sureshot]

There should be a note saying the sheaim can't built the Altar of Lun... I have a great prophet and can't built it. So I guess only good and neutral civs can built it.

play random personalities or convert to runes early heh

 

[Arpymaster]

It was my first try with them to bring AV on the world. No sense in changing religion, and my problem is not that it is a bug, I'm reporting a mising text like "your civ can't build this" or "you have to be neutral/goog" to build.
Right now I see no text correction thread for Fire, so I post it here.